OT Roe V Wade In Trouble

[Phatguysrule]

I am not posting in this thread to debate the abortion issue. I am saving that battle for another day, maybe.

My point is, the district attorneys (DA) in this country are out of control, on both sides.

They are abusing their power to shove their agendas down peoples throats, and I am tired of it.

Not only by conservative DAs on the abortion issue. but also by the liberal DAs on crime and safety issues.

How do we get politics out of the legal system? The legal system has become more of a weapon then a process for justice.

DA's should have the freedom to do their job how they see fit as long as they aren't violating anybody's constitutional rights or any laws.

DA's who are restricting abortion are pretty clearly violating people's 1st, 5th, and 14th amendment rights and those restrictions cannot be enforced without violating a person's 4th amendment rights.

It's insane that this is even a topic of conversation, and is frankly a huge red flag regarding the health of democracy in the US. Every bit qs alarming as the conversations about banning guns.

 

[oldfisherman]

DA's should have the freedom to do their job how they see fit as long as they aren't violating anybody's constitutional rights or any laws.

DA's who are restricting abortion are pretty clearly violating people's 1st, 5th, and 14th amendment rights and those restrictions cannot be enforced without violating a person's 4th amendment rights.

It's insane that this is even a topic of conversation, and is frankly a huge red flag regarding the health of democracy in the US. Every bit qs alarming as the conversations about banning guns.

You want to debate this now, OK, I'll play.

You claim a woman has the constitutional right to kill her baby. Please quote the exact wording in the constitution that supports your claim in the 1st, 4th, 5th, and 24th amendments.

 

[Phatguysrule]

You want to debate this now, OK, I'll play.

You claim a woman has the constitutional right to kill her baby. Please quote the exact wording in the constitution that supports your claim in the 1st, 4th, 5th, and 24th amendments.

I'll get back to the amendments, but first...

Baby
noun
a very young child, especially one newly or recently born.

 

[oldfisherman]

I'll get back to the amendments, but first...

Baby
noun
a very young child, especially one newly or recently born.

Unborn child, aka child in utero

 

[crandc]

I am guessing old fisherman has never been pregnant which makes him expert on pregnancy.

 

[crandc]

First Amendment guarantees free exercise of religion. Jewish faith teaches a human life begins when a child is born and draws breath. There is no such thing as an "unborn child" in Judaism. Moreover, if there is a conflict between life of the fetus and life and health of the woman, including her mental health, the needs of the woman must take precedence. Abortion is not only not murder, it is literally mandated in such cases.

Anti abortion laws deprive Jewish people of our religious freedom.

Other faiths have similar views but I am less familiar with nuances of their interpretation.

Fourth Amendment guarantees right of people to be secure in person and home from unreasonable search. Searching a woman's uterus and legally seizing it against the will of the woman is a violation.

Fifth amendment protects against self incrimination. When a woman's body is forcibly examined for evidence of pregnancy and/ or use of birth control that is a violation.

24th amendment addresses poll tax. Reference was to 14th, prohibition on involuntary servitude. Anyone who thinks pregnancy, labor and motherhood aren't servitude must be a man.

 

[Phatguysrule]

First Amendment guarantees free exercise of religion. Jewish faith teaches a human life begins when a child is born and draws breath. There is no such thing as an "unborn child" in Judaism. Moreover, if there is a conflict between life of the fetus and life and health of the woman, including her mental health, the needs of the woman must take precedence. Abortion is not only not murder, it is literally mandated in such cases.

Anti abortion laws deprive Jewish people of our religious freedom.

Other faiths have similar views but I am less familiar with nuances of their interpretation.

Fourth Amendment guarantees right of people to be secure in person and home from unreasonable search. Searching a woman's uterus and legally seizing it against the will of the woman is a violation.

Fifth amendment protects against self incrimination. When a woman's body is forcibly examined for evidence of pregnancy and/ or use of birth control that is a violation.

24th amendment addresses poll tax. Reference was to 14th, prohibition on involuntary servitude. Anyone who thinks pregnancy, labor and motherhood aren't servitude must be a man.

@oldfisherman

What she said.

I'm on my way back from a tournament, but it's better this way, as @crandc is far more qualified to answer than I.

 

[oldfisherman]

First Amendment guarantees free exercise of religion. Jewish faith teaches a human life begins when a child is born and draws breath. There is no such thing as an "unborn child" in Judaism. Moreover, if there is a conflict between life of the fetus and life and health of the woman, including her mental health, the needs of the woman must take precedence. Abortion is not only not murder, it is literally mandated in such cases.

Anti abortion laws deprive Jewish people of our religious freedom.

Other faiths have similar views but I am less familiar with nuances of their interpretation

I'll address one point at a time.
Your religious objection is untenable on two grounds.

I'll agree there are many beliefs by many religions. I also agree, there are times, for the health of the mother, exceptions should be made. Being inconvenienced does not qualify to kill an unborn child.

Using your point of religious freedom..

We then should allow radical believing Muslims to kill anyone in the USA for religious reasons. The Quran dictates repeatedly that its followers must convert you to Islam, or kill you if you refuse. Some sects follow this belief.
Some examples:
Surah 3:151
Surah 2:191
Surah 9:5

As far as your belief that life begins at birth.

As far as when human life begins, you completely ignore science. Biology, the science of life, clearly states human life begins when a live male sperm enters a live female egg. Thus creating a new life that begins to grow. The delivery of the child from the womb is called birthing. That is why it is called birthday. Not the day it becomes illegal to kill the child day.


I have no feeling in my hand and fingers, so writing this with large fingers on a small touch screen dumb phone is extremely difficult. Please excuse any errors.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I'll address one point at a time.
Your religious objection is untenable on two grounds.

I'll agree there are many beliefs by many religions. I also agree, there are times, for the health of the mother, exceptions should be made. Being inconvenienced does not qualify to kill an unborn child.

Using your point of religious freedom..

We then should allow radical believing Muslims to kill anyone in the USA for religious reasons. The Quran dictates repeatedly that its followers must convert you to Islam, or kill you if you refuse. Some sects follow this belief.
Some examples:
Surah 3:151
Surah 2:191
Surah 9:5

As far as your belief that life begins at birth.

As far as when human life begins, you completely ignore science. Biology, the science of life, clearly states human life begins when a live male sperm enters a live female egg. Thus creating a new life that begins to grow. The delivery of the child from the womb is called birthing. That is why it is called birthday. Not the day it becomes illegal to kill the child day.


I have no feeling in my hand and fingers, so writing this with large fingers on a small touch screen dumb phone is extremely difficult. Please excuse any errors.

We don't make laws based on biology. We make laws based on what is best for society and, at least here in the US, with an eye on supporting individual liberty (ie, the Constitution of the United States).

When exactly life starts is not very relevant to a healthy and thriving society. Nor is it relevant to individual liberty.

The scientific method tells us that disallowing abortions is bad for society. It results in increased crime, decrease GDP, and a less educated and less healthy population.

Therefore, since free societies make laws for the benefit of society, any abortion related law here in the US should be based on what is best for society, and in support of individual liberties (the Constitution).

It just so happens that doing so also respects the aforementioned 1st, 4th, 5th, and 14th amendment rights of all American women.

There really is only one right, moral, or even logical answer here. A baby shouldn't legally become a baby until there is a mother who wants and claims it or, as is spelled out in the 14th Amendment, the day it is born.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

@crandc what kind of EV do you drive?

 

[oldfisherman]

We

The scientific method tells us that disallowing abortions is bad for society. It results in increased crime, decrease GDP, and a less educated and less healthy population.

.

Believe you mixed up your studies.

Disallowing abortions is not bad for society, and does not cause these problems (see Mexico were even sterilizing a dog is a big sin).

Legalizing drugs is bad for society and does cause the problems you mentioned.

 

[crandc]

I am a biologist.

I don't need someone to goysplain Judaism any more than I need to have pregnancy mansplained.

I drive a Corolla. Alternative fact, Kellyanne.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Believe you mixed up your studies.

Disallowing abortions is not bad for society, and does not cause these problems (see Mexico were even sterilizing a dog is a big sin).

I don't know enough about Mexican reproductive rights to understand what you mean here.

I don't generally look to Mexico as a societal paragon which offers the freedoms, economic opportunity, or any other benefits worthy of emulation...

Legalizing drugs is bad for society and does cause the problems you mentioned.

I'm not sure if there is any data on any country that has actually legalized drugs.

But if you're talking about decriminalization of personal use and possession, that's just flat wrong.

Failing to treat addiction (as the disease it is) causes significant problems. The legality of personal drug use is hardly a consideration, otherwise we wouldn't have a drug problem here in the US.

See Portugal, who treated their drug problems almost entirely away along with decriminalization, then saw the problem start coming back once they restricted funding for treatment.

 

[crandc]

Countries with legal abortion have healthiest best educated population, are stable and prosperous with lower levels of social and economic inequality. Not that legal abortion causes stability but is correlated with view that government should provide basic services but stay out of people's personal business, that state is secular or at least religiously neutral and women should have equal rights.

Countries where abortion is illegal are poorest, most crisis ridden. Government provides perks for few and repression for many, promotes and often mandates repressive religion and women have very low status.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

I'll address one point at a time.
Your religious objection is untenable on two grounds.

I'll agree there are many beliefs by many religions. I also agree, there are times, for the health of the mother, exceptions should be made. Being inconvenienced does not qualify to kill an unborn child.

Using your point of religious freedom..

We then should allow radical believing Muslims to kill anyone in the USA for religious reasons. The Quran dictates repeatedly that its followers must convert you to Islam, or kill you if you refuse. Some sects follow this belief.
Some examples:
Surah 3:151
Surah 2:191
Surah 9:5

As far as your belief that life begins at birth.

As far as when human life begins, you completely ignore science. Biology, the science of life, clearly states human life begins when a live male sperm enters a live female egg. Thus creating a new life that begins to grow. The delivery of the child from the womb is called birthing. That is why it is called birthday. Not the day it becomes illegal to kill the child day.


I have no feeling in my hand and fingers, so writing this with large fingers on a small touch screen dumb phone is extremely difficult. Please excuse any errors.

Amazing how some claim republicans ignore science and need to get religion out of politics…

But only when it fits the narrative. The moment it doesn’t, it’s okay to ignore science and state religious freedoms…

 

[crandc]

I have the feeling, no, conviction, oldfisherman never read the Quran but got selected quotes from some right wing web site.

Would you like to read some of the stuff in the bible?

 

[Phatguysrule]

Amazing how some claim republicans ignore science and need to get religion out of politics…

But only when it fits the narrative. The moment it doesn’t, it’s okay to ignore science and state religious freedoms…

Societal impact and individual rights take precedent over religion.

The Constitution protects religion except where the exercise of that religion would violate the constitutional rights of other US citizens.

For example, killing people who will not conform to your religion is not a protected expression of religion.

The religious belief allowing or encouraging a medical procedure should absolutely be a protected form religious expression.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Believe you mixed up your studies.

Disallowing abortions is not bad for society, and does not cause these problems (see Mexico were even sterilizing a dog is a big sin).

Legalizing drugs is bad for society and does cause the problems you mentioned.

Crime, Teenage Abortion, and Unwantedness - PMC - NCBI

The findings agree with previous research showing that (a) teenage motherhood is a major maternal crime factor, (b) unwanted pregnancy is a minor or insignificant factor, and (c) teenage birthrates explain both the increase in U.S. crime in the 1980s and the subsequent decline.3

 

[SlyPokerDog]

FYI abortion is legal in Mexico.

So is spaying or neutering your pet in Mexico.

 

[oldfisherman]

FYI abortion is legal in Mexico.

So is spaying or neutering your pet in Mexico.

Abortions in Mexico were a federal crime untill 2021. It was left up to each state to set their own abortion laws. Only about 1/3 of the states have made abortions legal, but within strick time periods, which vary by state.

I never said fixing a dog in Mexico was illegal, I sad it was a big sin. As I found out when I adopted a stray dog in Mexico, and wanted her fixed before we traveling back to Vancouver. None of the vets in Mexico would do it. BTW, she was the smartest dog I have ever owned, and understood everything said in both Spanish and English.

 

[barfo]

You want to debate this now, OK, I'll play.

You claim a woman has the constitutional right to kill her baby. Please quote the exact wording in the constitution that supports your claim in the 1st, 4th, 5th, and 24th amendments.

Well, I don't know about the 1st, 4th, and 5th, but it's easily found in the 24th amendment, section 1:

The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, or for a woman to kill her baby, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.

barfo

 

[crandc]

District court in Texas ruled women should die. A ruling written by Trump appointee declared hospital emergency rooms are not permitted to do abortions when a woman arrives hemorrhaging or with other immediate life threatening conditions. In typical woman hating lingo, he declared women can't use medical emergency as excuse to "abort their children".

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[crandc]

I remember a graphic.
A woman, a corporation, a fertilized egg are all in a room.
Which is not a person?

The woman, of course.

 

[crandc]

Trump boasted on Fox that he ended Roe. No one else could do it. It was a miracle!

All these 12 year olds raped by daddy will love their miraculous pregnancy.

Expect Biden campaign to run segment verbatim as campaign ad.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

 

[crandc]

Fucking everything. Including Senator who thought vagina was connected to stomach.

 

[crandc]

A new study reports more than 26,000 raped women in Texas alone were forced to carry to term.
Hey, if the sluts hadn't insisted on having vaginas they wouldn't have gotten themselves knocked up.
The teen pregnancy rate increased for the first time in 15 years.

 

[crandc]

Missouri voted to ban abortion in case of rape. Republicans explained God is perfect so if a raped 9 year old is pregnant it's what God wants.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Missouri voted to ban abortion in case of rape. Republicans explained God is perfect so if a raped 9 year old is pregnant it's what God wants.

Rape isn't one of the 10 Commandments so God must be cool with it.