Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

[3RA1N1AC]

what is the mormon minimum tithe? 10% right?

 

[Denny Crane]

The Romneys paid $1,935,708 in taxes on $13,696,951 of mostly investment income for an effective tax rate of 14.1 percent.
The Obamas paid an effective tax rate of 20.5 percent in 2011 . . . a lower rate than the president's secretary, according to the White House.

This is what is wrong with our system

Romney paid $1.9M in taxes in one year. You think you'll ever end up paying $1.9M in total (combined) for every year of your life you pay taxes?

I mean, the guy paid $1.9M in taxes. $1.9M sure seems like a lot of money to not keep.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

well, investing isnt really working, only people that work should have taxes higher than 15%

 

[Denny Crane]

well, investing isnt really working, only people that work should have taxes higher than 15%

That's a naive view of how it really works. To do $14M worth of trades is a lot of hours spent going over fundamentals, stock charts, investigating company behavior, looking at the kinds of people they're looking to hire (like on Monster.com), etc.

But sure, it's as easy is throwing a dart at the stock page hanging on the wall and making a few phone calls.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Romney paid $1.9M in taxes in one year. You think you'll ever end up paying $1.9M in total (combined) for every year of your life you pay taxes?

I mean, the guy paid $1.9M in taxes. $1.9M sure seems like a lot of money to not keep.

I guess . . . to me it's all relative. Paying 100K in taxes to someone who made 400K could mean a lot more than paying 1.9 million to a person who made 13M. Also, with a total net worth of over 250M, I doubt he is crying over 1.9M. And again, if you live in a country that allowed you to make 13M mostly in investment money . . . fuck anyone who thinks they are over paying when they pay 1.9M because that is a lot of money. 13M is a lot of money too.

I just read Romney filed his tax returns today. No wonder he didn't take the charitable deduction. He claimed he pays at least 13% in taxes before his taxes were released and he knew thees taxes would be scrutinized once filed and he releases it to the public. What candidate would take that deduction and ironically he ends up paying 14% in taxes.


Romney paid a price—literally—for saying that he paid at least 13 percent in federal income taxes over the past decade. He and his wife did not take the full deductions to which they were entitled for their charitable giving."The Romneys' generous charitable donations in 2011 would have significantly reduced their tax obligation for the year," Malt wrote. "The Romneys thus limited their deduction of charitable contributions to conform to the Governor's statement in August, based upon the January estimate of income, that he paid at least 13% in income taxes in each of the last 10 years."


Honestly, if he was not running for presidency, do you think he would have taken his charitable deduction?

It's all just a big political game where only the rich can play. Ugh!

 

[3RA1N1AC]

well, investing isnt really working, only people that work should have taxes higher than 15%

yeah i was being sarcastic, as in, it shouldnt have a lower tax rate

 

[barfo]

That's a naive view of how it really works. To do $14M worth of trades is a lot of hours spent going over fundamentals, stock charts, investigating company behavior, looking at the kinds of people they're looking to hire (like on Monster.com), etc.

But sure, it's as easy is throwing a dart at the stock page hanging on the wall and making a few phone calls.

Yes, it's hard, slaving labor. My god, the drudgery of reading 10-Ks. The endless toil of clicking on the refresh button. Begging at the country club for a hot tip. The poor, under-appreciated investor, all he wants to do is make a buck off someone else's labor, why do we make it so hard on him?

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

I file an extension every year and generally my final tax return by august/september time. It's pretty common.

He paid $3M last year. So $5M in two years. That's a shitload of money. That's $3M on an income of $21M or 14% (nothing out of the ordinary to jack up his effective rate). His real tax rate was $3M on AGI of $17M or 17.6%.

The whole % game is the joke. He made similar money as income as Warren Buffett, but paid 100x in taxes what Buffett's secretary did.

Obama, similarly, paid 10x what his secretary did. The system is progressive, clearly.

 

[Denny Crane]

Yes, it's hard, slaving labor. My god, the drudgery of reading 10-Ks. The endless toil of clicking on the refresh button. Begging at the country club for a hot tip. The poor, under-appreciated investor, all he wants to do is make a buck off someone else's labor, why do we make it so hard on him?

barfo

That's not how people with money invest it.

Do you manage your own 401K portfolio, or do you invest it in some fund managed by a fund manager? The only difference between a rich guy and a fund is the rich guy's money is a fund in its own right. It is a fuck load of work staying on top of it.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I file an extension every year and generally my final tax return by august/september time. It's pretty common.

He paid $3M last year. So $5M in two years. That's a shitload of money. That's $3M on an income of $21M or 14% (nothing out of the ordinary to jack up his effective rate). His real tax rate was $3M on AGI of $17M or 17.6%.

The whole % game is the joke. He made similar money as income as Warren Buffett, but paid 100x in taxes what Buffett's secretary did.

Obama, similarly, paid 10x what his secretary did. The system is progressive, clearly.

The percentage game isn't a joke, the numbers game is a joke. Look, look, look Romney paid 1.9M in taxes, what more do you want? How about he pays his fair share . .. and i doubt the average American feels like Romney or Obama paid their fair share.

It's this kind of thinking that scares me from Romney. If one just starts looking at how much each person pays and not the percentage, that is just plain wrong. Heck you can find many who think paying 1 million is paying too much, especially compared to how little a white house secretary pays. Maybe Romney paid 50% more than he should have. Should there be a rule you only have to pay up to 1 million because that is a lot of money.

BTW-i doubt 1 million is a lot of money to Romney and even Obama

 

[The_Lillard_King]

That's not how people with money invest it.

Do you manage your own 401K portfolio, or do you invest it in some fund managed by a fund manager? The only difference between a rich guy and a fund is the rich guy's money is a fund in its own right. It is a fuck load of work staying on top of it.

Tell us Denny how people with money do it? Because the ones I know, pay people to do all that for them . . . and then write off those costs.

 

[Denny Crane]

The percentage game isn't a joke, the numbers game is a joke. Look, look, look Romney paid 1.9M in taxes, what more do you want? How about he pays his fair share . .. and i doubt the average American feels like Romney or Obama paid their fair share.

It's this kind of thinking that scares me from Romney. If one just starts looking at how much each person pays and not the percentage, that is just plain wrong. Heck you can find many who think paying 1 million is paying too much, especially compared to how little a white house secretary pays. Maybe Romney paid 50% more than he should have. Should there be a rule you only have to pay up to 1 million because that is a lot of money.

BTW-i doubt 1 million is a lot of money to Romney and even Obama

A $million is a lot to Romney and Obama. $100 is a lot to Bill Gates. $100 is $100. There's no reason to decide for someone else the value of their money to them.

 

[PapaG]

Tell us Denny how people with money do it? Because the ones I know, pay people to do all that for them . . . and then write off those costs.

They pay people with their own money to manage their money. I'm wondering how they "write off" those costs, though, since the people they pay to manage their money, and the people of the people they pay to manage their money, pay taxes on that income.

What are you talking about? Are you looking to shut down the entire money management/accounting sector as well, and the taxes that those people pay from people like Mitt Romney for employing them?

 

[Denny Crane]

Tell us Denny how people with money do it? Because the ones I know, pay people to do all that for them . . . and then write off those costs.

What exactly is Romney's expertise?

Oh yeah, he was an investment banker.

I'm sure he'd hire someone to run his finances, right? I am sure, rather, that he invested his money wisely on his own to make his fortune.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

A $million is a lot to Romney and Obama. $100 is a lot to Bill Gates. $100 is $100. There's no reason to decide for someone else the value of their money to them.

Well if there is no reason to decide for someone else he value of their money to them, how can you say a million is a lot to them?????

I can say $100 is not a lot for me and I can guess with confidence that $100 is practically nothing to Gates.


One dollar is one dollar. One penny is one penny . . . that doesn't make it a lot of money to most people

 

[The_Lillard_King]

They pay people with their own money to manage their money. I'm wondering how they "write off" those costs, though, since the people they pay to manage their money, and the people of the people they pay to manage their money, pay taxes on that income.

What are you talking about? Are you looking to shut down the entire money management/accounting sector as well, and the taxes that those people pay from people like Mitt Romney for employing them?

My guess, without studying the tax code, you create an investment company and hire employees. You put in all under a business and write off your costs to the money the company makes.

I do know with property, you put it under a corp and write off any cost to the property including property management. I know very little about running a rental property, I just know it makes me money doing it. I wonder if I had 100Xs the amount of capital to invest in property, would I make 100s what I make now. It would be sweet, and I do very little work and have little knowledge about the rental industry.

 

[PapaG]

My guess, without studying the tax code, you create an investment company and hire employees. You put in all under a business and write off your costs to the money the company makes.

I do know with property, you put it under a corp and write off any cost to the property including property management.

You still pay 1099 taxes on your corp, though. That's damn near a 40% rate.

I guess I'm not following you line of logic here. It seems to point to "trickle down" in terms of taxable income, though.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

What exactly is Romney's expertise?

Oh yeah, he was an investment banker.

I'm sure he'd hire someone to run his finances, right? I am sure, rather, that he invested his money wisely on his own to make his fortune.

I wasn't talking about Romney. Again you make the generalization that people with money do all their own work in managing and investing their money. That is just not true.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

You still pay 1099 taxes on your corp, though. That's damn near a 40% rate.

I guess I'm not following you line of logic here. It seems to point to "trickle down" in terms of taxable income, though.

The only point I was making is that I doubt all rich people spend tons of time on their investments. Many just turn their money over to experts

 

[PapaG]

The only point I was making is that I doubt all rich people spend tons of time on their investments. Many just turn their money over to experts

Experts that they pay out of taxed income, and then the experts have that income taxed as well.

Economics 101

You're actually arguing for the Trickle Down theory at this point.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Experts that they pay out of taxed income, and then the experts have that income taxed as well.

Economics 101

You're actually arguing for the Trickle Down theory at this point.

OK.

As you jump in this the idea being thrown around is do people making money on investments work as hard as say blue collar worker. I think some do, and some don't. I don't think that all people who make money through investments spend their time studying every aspect of their investments. That is what I believe this discussion was about.

But hey, let's talk trickle down economics . . . that is Reagan era right?

 

[PapaG]

OK.

As you jump in this the idea being thrown around is do people making money on investments work as hard as say blue collar worker. I think some do, and some don't. I don't think that all people who make money through investments spend their time studying every aspect of their investments. That is what I believe this discussion was about.

But hey, let's talk trickle down economics . . . that is Reagan era right?

It doesn't matter what era it is. You're actually talking about it. Already taxed income by Romney is being spent by him to pay "experts". The "experts" then pay their own federal rate, while Romney still pays capital gains on that money as well.

It's really not that complicated. Again, I'm not flaming you. I just see that you are actually talking about Trickle Down taxation, and I don't think that you realize that you're doing so.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

It doesn't matter what era it is. You're actually talking about it. Already taxed income by Romney is being spent by him to pay "experts". The "experts" then pay their own federal rate, while Romney still pays capital gains on that money as well.

It's really not that complicated. Again, I'm not flaming you. I just see that you are actually talking about Trickle Down taxation, and I don't think that you realize that you're doing so.

We weren't really talking economic implications, the discussion, as I understood it, was do rich people spend all their time analyzing their investments. I say not all, because some will hire people to do that. If that helps out the economy, great.

I hope Denny is wrong even about Romney and that he hires people to study his investments, the economy could use all the help it can get.

 

[PapaG]

We weren't really talking economic implications, the discussion, as I understood it, was do rich people spend all their time analyzing their investments. I say not all, because some will hire people to do that. If that helps out the economy, great.

I hope Denny is wrong even about Romney and that he hires people to study his investments, the economy could use all the help it can get.

It clearly does. What was your point again?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

It clearly does. What was your point again?

That some people who live on investment income don't spend all their time analyzing their investments.

 

[barfo]

That's not how people with money invest it.

Do you manage your own 401K portfolio, or do you invest it in some fund managed by a fund manager? The only difference between a rich guy and a fund is the rich guy's money is a fund in its own right. It is a fuck load of work staying on top of it.

Are you asking me personally? Yes, I manage both my own 401(k) and my non-401(k) portfolio. And frankly, it's a lot less work than my regular job. Yes, it is some effort. But is it so much effort that I need a tax break to do it? No.

barfo

 

[PapaG]

That some people who live on investment income don't spend all their time analyzing their investments.

Correct. They pay people good money to analyze it for them, and then those people pay federal and state taxes and employ other people in their firms. Those employees also pay taxes, right down to the janitor in most cases.

You're a closet fiscal conservative, and you really don't even know it.

 

[PapaG]

Are you asking me personally? Yes, I manage both my own 401(k) and my non-401(k) portfolio. And frankly, it's a lot less work than my regular job. Yes, it is some effort. But is it so much effort that I need a tax break to do it? No.

barfo

Moderating is a tough gig, too. You must be a very busy guy.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Correct. They pay people good money to analyze it for them, and those people pay taxes and employ other people in their firms.

You're a closet fiscal conservative, and you really don't even know it.

Maybe since I don't know what defines a fiscal conservative. But give me $250M and stamp fiscal conservative on my forehead because I am all for a life where I take my fortune, turn it over to people I trust, pay them to make me money that I get taxed on 15% while I chill on the big island.

 

[PapaG]

Maybe since I don't know what defines a fiscal conservative. But give me $250M and stamp fiscal conservative on my forehead because I am all for a life where I take my fortune, turn it over to people I trust, pay them to make me money that I get taxed on 15% while I chill on the big island.

Romney didn't inherit his fortune. Unlike John Kerry, of course, who married into his ... twice.

Plus, I must have missed where Romney has "chilled" anywhere. He chaired Bain, he left Bain to take over the SLC Olympics, he then ran for governor of MA, and after that, ran for President twice, winning the nomination the second time around.

I wonder what's wrong with that?