ROY comments on our offense - is there a problem here?

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Ok I'll throw this bone out there. Say the offense is centered around Roy. The question is, are the guys around him the best fit to win. Is Millers the PG type that you want out there with Roy if he is going to dominate the ball? Can you play another SG with ability with him instead? (Mathews/Rudy). It seems to me that the guy that plays opposite of Roy needs a few things: 1. The ability to guard PG. 2. The ability to hit the outside shot. 3. The ability to generate a few assist per game. 4. The ability to generate their own shot. 5. The ability to take make a big man pay for a switch on the perimeter.

Secondly if Roy is going to dominate the ball, we need players on the front line who will go do the dirty work. We need guys who will hit the boards. I know Joel fits that bill. I know Oden when healthy fits that bill. Neither is healthy right now, so it doesn't matter. The guy who needs to pick it up is Aldridge. Unfortunately, that will never happen, because he is in denial that there is even a problem to begin with.

We know Mo Williams is available, and he would be a perfect fit next to Roy. Billups may be available when Denver wholesales their team, but may cost too much.

I'm not sure if you are advocating that style of play, or just thinking out loud. But I would be very annoyed to see the team go out and try to form a team who's goal is to play iso after iso. If it doesn't work with Kobe, Wade or Lebron, it isn't going to work with Roy.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

I love Quick taking a sentence from an interview with Broy out of context and everyone going crazy about it.

No surprise here.

I wish this guy would have quit when he said he was going to.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

I like his attitude and how he wants the ball. He is an All-NBA Player and arguably considered by many the 3rd best SG in the NBA/World. Why don't you want your best player to get control of the game?
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

Stop your bitching, its not about you anymore. You got your 85 mil, its time this team progressed. Make the players around you better, like the rest of the superstars around the league do, the ones you want to be like.

That is all.

He's not bitching. And I don't even think he's making it about him. What he's really doing, is making it about the team.

We're better with the ball in Brandon's hands as much as he's willing to take it. Our offense is what it is and if we have the ball in Andre Miller's hands, Roy becomes little more than Martell Webster (or Wesley Matthews this season) or Nicolas Batum on offense. That's a downgrade at both the PG and SG positions.

I think some people are reading his comments as 'I want to take 35 shots a night like Kobe Bryant' but that's not at all what he's saying. He's saying he wants to be the one to create opportunities because he's the best on the team at creating for others (as well as himself) and he's right. I think this is a great sign and it's the exact opposite of what Rasheed Wallace did that caused so many people to get pissed at him years ago. 'Why doesn't Rasheed dominate the ball more? He's our best player!' People were right to criticize Wallace back then and Roy is right to want the ball in his hands more now.

Our starting lineup should absolutely include Roy, Matthews and Batum. Batum can guard the opposing team's best scorer at the 1-3, Matthews gets the 2nd best and Roy takes the worst. That defensive lineup will create nightmares for the opposition and Roy is correct to point out that that is how it should be.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

There are two problems here

1. Brandon needs to learn to get his points within the flow of the offense like K*be had to do

2. Portland's offesne has no flow to it.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

Whats wrong with our best and highest paid player saying that the team is better when he has the ball?

Well, for one, there is nothing to back up that claim. Secondly, teams don't win using an iso-heavy offense.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

I love Quick taking a sentence from an interview with Broy out of context and everyone going crazy about it.

No surprise here.

I wish this guy would have quit when he said he was going to.

It wasnt quick, i heard the interview
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

Well, for one, there is nothing to back up that claim. Secondly, teams don't win using an iso-heavy offense.

There's nothing to back up the claim that it doesn't make the team better, so...

I think the backlash against isolation offenses is pretty overblown. We're still very efficient offensively. If we score efficiently, we just need to play better defense than the opposition and avoid injuries. That was our problem last season and that's why we got Wesley Matthews and why Batum will be getting more time and why Andre Miller should be shipped out for a position of need.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

The issue is that Roy is not a pure SG. He's a hybrid SG / PG.

I agree he needs the ball and he does not work well with a classic PG like Andre since Roy is not a catch and shoot spot-up shooter. Our offense is more like the triangle, where no pure PG is needed, than a D'Antoni system where it is key.

Given that, Roy is right. Miller is just a bad fit, but that's not his fault.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

It'll be interesting to see if Miller gets moved to the bench at some point this year.

I hated the idea last year because Blake was such a downgrade in all aspects except perimeter shooting compared to Miller.

But with Matthews you get almost as good a three point shooter as Blake and a far, far better defender. Even against PG's, Matthews has got to be an upgrade on defense over Blake. That defensive upgrade may tilt me in favor of starting Matthews over Miller.

The question is who would bring the ball up the court if we went with Matthews. I don't think Batum has a good enough handle to do that consistently yet. Roy can do it, but it's kind of a waste of his energy trying to do it against quicker guards. He has a hard enough time staying healthy. I haven't seen Matthews enough to know if he is capable.

Anyway, as for Roy's comments it's entirely predictable. Whenever you have an elite guard and he sees the offense is struggling, his instinct is to say, "Gimme the ball more." It's exactly the kind of aggressive attitude that makes him an elite guard. It is a 180 about-face from a few weeks ago where he said he wanted to learn to play off the ball more, because at that time the team wasn't even playing, and as far as anybody knew there weren't any hiccups in the offense.

Personally, I'd rather see Roy work harder on playing off the ball more. It seems really short-sighted to give up on the concept after just a couple of preseason games.

But at some point Nate needs to experiment with Matthews or Roy or Batum bring up the ball to see if that's a realistic option. It's something we need to know, anyway. Miller has a rock-solid health history, but he's getting up there and there's no guarantee he'll stay healthy forever. Without him, Bayless is the only guard we have with any experience running the PG position at the NBA level. And it's always possible Bayless gets injured too.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

If he's gonna have the ball all the time, lets just make him our point guard. Batum can guard the quick PGs, then you stick Wesley at the 2 like a poster above said. If Miller is out there without the ball, it's a waste when it comes to defense and spreading the floor. Plus, he would be a great spark-plug off the bench assuming he doesn't turn into Mr. Grumpy Pants.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

If he's gonna have the ball all the time, lets just make him our point guard. Batum can guard the quick PGs, then you stick Wesley at the 2 like a poster above said. If Miller is out there without the ball, it's a waste when it comes to defense and spreading the floor. Plus, he would be a great spark-plug off the bench assuming he doesn't turn into Mr. Grumpy Pants.

It's just a question of who gets the responsibility of bringing the ball up the court. That's the big hole.

After the Qyntel Woods at PG experiment a few years ago, I'm extremely leery of both Batum or Wesley handling it. (I remember when that experiment failed with Qyntel, it seemed to begin the death spiral of his career. Before then he was a "promising young athlete with huge upside" and after that he seemed to turn into "headcase cancer" overnight. I know a lot of it also had to do with his multiple off-court issues, but it still makes me leery of placing so much responsibility on a really young guy who isn't even a point guard. I'd like to see both these guys incrementally build on their success, rather than roll the dice on forcing them into a massive change in role.)

As for Roy bring the ball up, the guy can't stay healthy as it is. I don't think it's realistic to expect him to do it for a full season.

But like I said, it's definitely something McMillan needs to determine fairly early in the season, barring a trade.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

It's just a question of who gets the responsibility of bringing the ball up the court. That's the big hole.

After the Qyntel Woods at PG experiment a few years ago, I'm extremely leery of both Batum or Wesley handling it. (I remember when that experiment failed with Qyntel, it seemed to begin the death spiral of his career. Before then he was a "promising young athlete with huge upside" and after that he seemed to turn into "headcase cancer" overnight. I know a lot of it also had to do with his multiple off-court issues, but it still makes me leery of placing so much responsibility on a really young guy who isn't even a point guard. I'd like to see both these guys incrementally build on their success, rather than roll the dice on forcing them into a massive change in role.)

As for Roy bring the ball up, the guy can't stay healthy as it is. I don't think it's realistic to expect him to do it for a full season.

But like I said, it's definitely something McMillan needs to determine fairly early in the season, barring a trade.

I'm not too worried about Batum or Matthews ending up like Qyntel Woods, but I get your point. But Batum brought the ball up for France quite a bit and Matthews has been doing it pretty well for us in preseason and did it some for Utah last year as well. I think either or both or all three could handle the job in a rotation.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

I love Quick taking a sentence from an interview with Broy out of context and everyone going crazy about it.

No surprise here.

I wish this guy would have quit when he said he was going to.
Me too. But I don't know anything about any Quick article. I heard Roy on the radio and he essentially said, among other things, and I'm paraphrasing slightly, that, "I don't give a shit what Andre wants, it doesn't matter what Andre wants, I want the ball and I'm going to get it. Andre will just have to deal with it."

I so wish we could trade Roy for Williams or Paul. Yesterday. He may be our best player, but he's not 'good enough' to win a championship all by himself. Unless he learns that it takes a 'superstar' working with a 'team' to win a championship, this team is going nowhere.
 
I'm not sure if you are advocating that style of play, or just thinking out loud. But I would be very annoyed to see the team go out and try to form a team who's goal is to play iso after iso. If it doesn't work with Kobe, Wade or Lebron, it isn't going to work with Roy.

I am saying if you are building a team a certain way, them commit to building the team that way so it has it's maximum chance for success.

By the way you are incorrect. Dwayne Wade won a ring with an iso offense. The Detroit Pistons won a championship with an ISO offense.
 
Forget finding a PG if Roy wants the ball in his hands more move Miller out of the lineup and play Roy at PG and Mathews at SG, Batum and SF, LMA at PF and Camby at Center. Let Mathews or Batum guard the elite PG's and Mathews is capable of bringing the ball up the court. Not a long term solution but one we could get by on till a consolidation trade. Then let Miller and Rudy play together on the 2nd unit with Bayless getting mop up duty.
Yes. As perturbed as I've been at Roy, we aren't getting Williams or Paul for him. The next best option is what you've suggested. Actually, the next best option would be to trade Miller altogether, but I doubt that happens either, not with this 'brain trust.' So, the third best option it is!

:cheers:
 
I am saying if you are building a team a certain way, them commit to building the team that way so it has it's maximum chance for success.

By the way you are incorrect. Dwayne Wade won a ring with an iso offense.

heh. What? Shaq was dominating at the time. I'll concede if a team has two dominating, all-pro, generational-type, iso-capable players, it can work. Not with one good-to-star level player.

The Detroit Pistons won a championship with an ISO offense.

No. That Pistons team had so much movement and play off the ball. How do you think Rip was the leading scorer without being able to play 1-on-1?
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

Me too. But I don't know anything about any Quick article. I heard Roy on the radio and he essentially said, among other things, and I'm paraphrasing slightly, that, "I don't give a shit what Andre wants, it doesn't matter what Andre wants, I want the ball and I'm going to get it. Andre will just have to deal with it."

I so wish we could trade Roy for Williams or Paul. Yesterday. He may be our best player, but he's not 'good enough' to win a championship all by himself. Unless he learns that it takes a 'superstar' working with a 'team' to win a championship, this team is going nowhere.

How about we don't inaccurately paraphrase at all:

Do you think the offense will return to like it was last year?

"Last year I thought it was different from 2 years before, just with adding 'Dre. I think we're going to continue some of that from last year but try to get back maybe from a couple of years ago, before 'Dre came, where I get the ball a little bit more. I want the basketball a lot more."

--

What's the problem here? The best and most creative offensive player on the team wants the ball more? I don't consider that a problem.

As for hypothetical trades that won't happen...sure...it's be great to get a better player on our team, but that's not likely to happen. We're not going to get a top 3 point guard, so we'll have to settle for a top 3 shooting guard. Either way, the best player on the team needs the ball in his hands a lot if we're going to be successful.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

Me too. But I don't know anything about any Quick article. I heard Roy on the radio and he essentially said, among other things, and I'm paraphrasing slightly, that, "I don't give a shit what Andre wants, it doesn't matter what Andre wants, I want the ball and I'm going to get it. Andre will just have to deal with it."

I so wish we could trade Roy for Williams or Paul. Yesterday. He may be our best player, but he's not 'good enough' to win a championship all by himself. Unless he learns that it takes a 'superstar' working with a 'team' to win a championship, this team is going nowhere.

Agreed.

There is nothing wrong with our best player needing to be the focus of the offense, and being the most highly utilized player. But Roy seems to just want to run that damn 1-4 set all game, and it doesn't work anymore. This team can't even run an effective pick-and-roll with Roy. That is absurd.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

How about we don't inaccurately paraphrase at all:

Do you think the offense will return to like it was last year?

"Last year I thought it was different from 2 years before, just with adding 'Dre. I think we're going to continue some of that from last year but try to get back maybe from a couple of years ago, before 'Dre came, where I get the ball a little bit more. I want the basketball a lot more."

--

What's the problem here? The best and most creative offensive player on the team wants the ball more? I don't consider that a problem.

The problem with that, is that because of Nate's offense, Roy getting the ball "a lot more" means nothing but ISO and 1-4 sets. Teams figured it out. There could be an offense where Roy got the ball a lot more, without requiring everybody else to stand around on the 3pt line.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

How about we don't inaccurately paraphrase at all:

Do you think the offense will return to like it was last year?

"Last year I thought it was different from 2 years before, just with adding 'Dre. I think we're going to continue some of that from last year but try to get back maybe from a couple of years ago, before 'Dre came, where I get the ball a little bit more. I want the basketball a lot more."

--

What's the problem here? The best and most creative offensive player on the team wants the ball more? I don't consider that a problem.

As for hypothetical trades that won't happen...sure...it's be great to get a better player on our team, but that's not likely to happen. We're not going to get a top 3 point guard, so we'll have to settle for a top 3 shooting guard. Either way, the best player on the team needs the ball in his hands a lot if we're going to be successful.
Sorry, I wasn't taking notes. I was driving. And I wasn't paraphrasing the part you quoted. I was paraphrasing what Roy said after he said that. I thought I paraphrased it pretty accurately. He literally said Andre will just have to deal with it, among other things. The words I heard and the vocal intonation I perceived is what I wrote. Maybe you heard it differently. That's cool.

I agree with you that our best player is our best option on offense. That should be obvious. I'm not crazy about Roy's attitude though, this year or last year, on a number of counts. Or his maturity. At first I thought he should not make those statements publicly. But then I realized Brandon Roy has never had a conversation with Andre Miller, so I guess this is the only way he knows how to communicate with him?

And yes, I do think we'll run the same offense as last year. With healthy players, I hope.

:cheers:
 
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Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

As for hypothetical trades that won't happen...sure...it's be great to get a better player on our team, but that's not likely to happen. We're not going to get a top 3 point guard, so we'll have to settle for a top 3 shooting guard. Either way, the best player on the team needs the ball in his hands a lot if we're going to be successful.
I agree. Since we aren't getting Williams or Paul for Roy, I think it would best if we could trade Miller and run Roy with Matthews and Batum. But I'm not holding my breath on any trades.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

I'm fine with Roy getting the ball a lot. I'm fine with him getting the ball more than he has in the past. What I'm not necessarily fine with is an attitude of "To make this team successful, just give me the ball and let me figure it out." No player has been terribly successful that way, not even Michael Jordan. I realize that Roy is willing to pass the ball, and he's not a selfish scorer. However, demanding he be the focal point all the time I think would be detrimental, because it limits what the team can do.

What it comes down to is that I don't think Roy is a point guard. I don't think he can function like a point guard and be the initiator every time down the floor. In some ways, his hybrid nature is a strength...but it's a weakness also, if he can't execute/accept roles, at times, that off guards generally take on, like being off the ball weapons. The fact of the matter is that Roy is not a transcendent player. He's Portland's best player since Drexler and fans associate him with the team's turnaround, but he's not a generational type of player (from an NBA standpoint). He isn't so good that he should be able to dictate what he does and everyone falls into line around that. Being the "best player" isn't qualification enough; I can only imagine the howls of anger if Zach Randolph had made comments like this as Portland's best player at one point.

Even Jordan adapted his game. It's not too much to ask Roy to do the same. The tone that some people seem to be taking ("How dare you question Roy, he's our best player") is overmuch, in my opinion. He's an excellent player, but it's still his responsibility to adapt his game to fit the personnel around him, just as it's the responsibility of every other player. The coaching staff should want the ball in his hands a ton, but everyone, including Roy, should be open-minded as to how the ball is put in his hands.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

I'm fine with Roy getting the ball a lot. I'm fine with him getting the ball more than he has in the past. What I'm not necessarily fine with is an attitude of "To make this team successful, just give me the ball and let me figure it out." No player has been terribly successful that way, not even Michael Jordan. I realize that Roy is willing to pass the ball, and he's not a selfish scorer. However, demanding he be the focal point all the time I think would be detrimental, because it limits what the team can do.

What it comes down to is that I don't think Roy is a point guard. I don't think he can function like a point guard and be the initiator every time down the floor. In some ways, his hybrid nature is a strength...but it's a weakness also, if he can't execute/accept roles, at times, that off guards generally take on, like being off the ball weapons. The fact of the matter is that Roy is not a transcendent player. He's Portland's best player since Drexler and fans associate him with the team's turnaround, but he's not a generational type of player (from an NBA standpoint). He isn't so good that he should be able to dictate what he does and everyone falls into line around that. Being the "best player" isn't qualification enough; I can only imagine the howls of anger if Zach Randolph had made comments like this as Portland's best player at one point.

Even Jordan adapted his game. It's not too much to ask Roy to do the same. The tone that some people seem to be taking ("How dare you question Roy, he's our best player") is overmuch, in my opinion. He's an excellent player, but it's still his responsibility to adapt his game to fit the personnel around him, just as it's the responsibility of every other player. The coaching staff should want the ball in his hands a ton, but everyone, including Roy, should be open-minded as to how the ball is put in his hands.

Excellent post.

[/thread]
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

I'm fine with Roy getting the ball a lot. I'm fine with him getting the ball more than he has in the past. What I'm not necessarily fine with is an attitude of "To make this team successful, just give me the ball and let me figure it out." No player has been terribly successful that way, not even Michael Jordan. I realize that Roy is willing to pass the ball, and he's not a selfish scorer. However, demanding he be the focal point all the time I think would be detrimental, because it limits what the team can do.

What it comes down to is that I don't think Roy is a point guard. I don't think he can function like a point guard and be the initiator every time down the floor. In some ways, his hybrid nature is a strength...but it's a weakness also, if he can't execute/accept roles, at times, that off guards generally take on, like being off the ball weapons. The fact of the matter is that Roy is not a transcendent player. He's Portland's best player since Drexler and fans associate him with the team's turnaround, but he's not a generational type of player (from an NBA standpoint). He isn't so good that he should be able to dictate what he does and everyone falls into line around that. Being the "best player" isn't qualification enough; I can only imagine the howls of anger if Zach Randolph had made comments like this as Portland's best player at one point.

Even Jordan adapted his game. It's not too much to ask Roy to do the same. The tone that some people seem to be taking ("How dare you question Roy, he's our best player") is overmuch, in my opinion. He's an excellent player, but it's still his responsibility to adapt his game to fit the personnel around him, just as it's the responsibility of every other player. The coaching staff should want the ball in his hands a ton, but everyone, including Roy, should be open-minded as to how the ball is put in his hands.

I don't think that he has to be the PG. But what it does allow you to do, is have a PG who is more about scoring and less about assist and still be effective, because Brandon picks up some of the assist load. What I think is in order for Roy to be effective, you should team with him a player who can get his own shot and get it fast. Because that guard is going to be the recipient of a lot of flaming bag passes when Roy's play breaks down. Right now when Roy passes it out of a situation where he gets bogged down, Miller cannot hit the 3, and he cannot take a big outside if switched. You don't need a guy who can run the whole team at PG why Roy is in. You need a guy who can score, and score fast when the shit hits the fan.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

The coaching staff should want the ball in his hands a ton, but everyone, including Roy, should be open-minded as to how the ball is put in his hands.

Good post, Minstrel, but I suspect that Roy and the coaching staff ARE open-minded as to how he gets the ball. I think this whole issue is the typical thing we see around here where some player says something and then people here interpret it how they want in order to push whatever opinion or agenda they have about the team. I think it would be a good idea to wait and actually see a few games before reaching any conclusions about Roy's attitude. I want our best player to be a bit selfish, but not at the expense of the team. I'm of the opinion that Brandon has no other agenda than wanting to win.
 
heh. What? Shaq was dominating at the time. I'll concede if a team has two dominating, all-pro, generational-type, iso-capable players, it can work. Not with one good-to-star level player.



No. That Pistons team had so much movement and play off the ball. How do you think Rip was the leading scorer without being able to play 1-on-1?


Every offense has movement off the ball. I remember a lot of Billups ISO waiting for Hamilton to come off screens, Hamilton post ups, Wallace post ups, and Tayshaun Prince either hitting 3's or receiving the ball on the wing for a 1 on 1 iso. The amount of points scored per game was low, because they let their defense do the talking.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

I don't think that he has to be the PG. But what it does allow you to do, is have a PG who is more about scoring and less about assist and still be effective, because Brandon picks up some of the assist load. What I think is in order for Roy to be effective, you should team with him a player who can get his own shot and get it fast. Because that guard is going to be the recipient of a lot of flaming bag passes when Roy's play breaks down. Right now when Roy passes it out of a situation where he gets bogged down, Miller cannot hit the 3, and he cannot take a big outside if switched. You don't need a guy who can run the whole team at PG why Roy is in. You need a guy who can score, and score fast when the shit hits the fan.

It seems like a strange strategy to assume that our offensive sets will have "shit hit the fan" so often that we need to bring in players to accommodate that.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

It seems like a strange strategy to assume that our offensive sets will have "shit hit the fan" so often that we need to bring in players to accommodate that.

I think there are several player on roster who could work out ok in that spot if given a run to make it work. I think both Rudy and Mathews fit that bill. Both of them are capable scorers, and both usually average a few assist per game. Both are also capable of getting up a shot in a hurry, and both can hit the 3.
 
Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

I think there are several player on roster who could work out ok in that spot if given a run to make it work. I think both Rudy and Mathews fit that bill. Both of them are capable scorers, and both usually average a few assist per game. Both are also capable of getting up a shot in a hurry, and both can hit the 3.

And if it happens so often (getting up a shot in a hurry and off of "flaming bag passes"), doesn't that point to a serious flaw in the offensive scheme?
 

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