Roy... SG or SF

[magnifier661]

Was listening to Cowherd this morning, regarding Conservative or Liberal type people. He was trying to explain that he isn't conservative or liberal. He compared himself to a chameleon with no true political side, using Roy as an example. He said "I'm like Roy. Am I a guard or forward?"

I've been really thinking about this since last season. Hell even the end of the season before. In all honesty, I truly believe he is best used as a SF. Of course many of the arguments will be, don't want him to get beat up by the other stronger SFs, He works best playing with the ball, and What are we going to do with Batum or Webster.

Here is my suggestion that will still keep everyone happy.

1.) Go with a template of Roy, Aldridge, Oden and Fernandez as your "Core group". Bring in a vet PG every 3 years.

2.) Having a Starting line-up of: Miller, Fernandez, Roy, Aldridge and Oden. This group will focus more on the "inside out" game with Oden anchoring the post. Aldridge, Roy and Fernandez are very good from the perimeter, plus it saves their energy throughout the game.

3.) First subs: Batum for Fernandez and Blake for Miller. Roy moves to SG. This line-up will have more of Roy doing like what he did last season.

4.) Sencond subs: Webster for Roy, Pryzbilla for Oden. You use Aldridge as your main offensive man, but eventually bring in Fernandez for Batum, Outlaw for Aldridge and Miller for Blake. Then you have two offensive weapons with Miller being the facilitator.

5.) Manage the minutes so that in the last 5 minutes of the game, you have Miller, Fernandez, Roy, Aldridge and Oden closing it out for you.

With this kinda change-up, You can give plenty of minutes to the supporting cast, but keep it 30-35 minutes for those 4 players.

As for the advantages of Roy playing SF mostly. He is much quicker than most SFs in the game. Also, it's much harder to double a SF, than a SG. And defensively, I honestly believe it would be a much easier handle. SGs have to fight through pick after pick, usually set by centers and PFs to stick with their man. A SF doesn't move without the ball as much, so Roy could gamble and play the "passing lanes".

I maybe totally "off" on this, but it's something I've been really thinking about for quite some time. Thoughts?

 

[Mediocre Man]

Brandon Roy is a SG period. Yes he can play some time at the 1 and 3, but he is a SG.

 

[magnifier661]

Brandon Roy is a SG period. Yes he can play some time at the 1 and 3, but he is a SG.

Well this may be a "non-factor" but I personally think Fernandez won't be too happy playing back-up for the rest of his NBA career. Are you saying it's okay to see him eventually go?

 

[STOMP]

Well this may be a "non-factor" but I personally think Fernandez won't be too happy playing back-up for the rest of his NBA career. Are you saying it's okay to see him eventually go?

Manu... besides that example, Rudy's free agency is years away.

I'm for giving Roy the start at SG and letting him be the primary SF backup to Batum when Rudy checks in. There should be plenty of minutes (25-35) for all three at the wings.

STOMP

 

[GrandpaBlaze]

For me it boils down to who do I feel is better, overall, for the team; Rudy or Nic? I go with Nic and hence, Roy should be SG.

A simpleton's logic.

Gramps...

 

[mook]

Well this may be a "non-factor" but I personally think Fernandez won't be too happy playing back-up for the rest of his NBA career. Are you saying it's okay to see him eventually go?

Yes it is. And is it really so surprising? How long does the fourth best player on any team ever stay with that team? My guess is that those kind of guys never last more than 3 or 4 seasons.

We will have to eventually trade Rudy. But the good news is that he's such a talented player that we'll likely get a decent value in return.

As for your main point, it's pretty clear that Roy sees himself as a 2/1 and not as a 3/2. Why else would he drop weight over the summer? Myself, I kind of wish he'd gone the other direction and added a little more muscle so he could play more minutes at SF, but that wasn't what he decided to do.

Anyway, if there's one prototypical starting player found on nearly every championship team, it's the defensive specialist small forward. (I posted about this about a month ago.) You seemingly have to have one (unless you are Boston).

That's not Roy. That could be Batum.

 

[Blaz06Draft]

The following is part of one of my posts from early summer. I'm not sure why the numbers work out this way, but it certainly is interesting. Roy as a SF is phenomenal, and better than as a SG. (Data from 82games.com.)...

"The surprise our ranking in net PER from the SF position. We were ranked 7th last year. This is misleading, as Roy played 25% of our SF minutes with a net PER of +18.3 (phenomenal!). Batum played 35% of SF minutes with a net PER of -1.6, and Travis played 37% of the SF minutes with a -3.1 PER. Of our "true" SF, Batum should improve, and Martell is back, replacing Travis. Martell's net PER in 07/08 was -2.7, so not much difference in net PER from Travis.
Roy's surprising strength at SF deserves some comparisons with the league's best (showing % of team's minutes at that position and net PER)

LeBron as SF: 56%, +20.8
Roy as SF: 25%, +18.3
Wade as SG: 67%, + 17.0
Kobe as SG: 72%, +14.1
Howard as C: 71%, +12.8
Roy SF/SG: 72%, +12.5
Roy as SG: 47%, +9.4
Anthony as SF: 54%, +8.2
Pierce as SF: 72%, + 5.7

This makes the Roy as SF idea all the more intriguing!"

 

[magnifier661]

Manu... besides that example, Rudy's free agency is years away.

I'm for giving Roy the start at SG and letting him be the primary SF backup to Batum when Rudy checks in. There should be plenty of minutes (25-35) for all three at the wings.

STOMP

Remember Manu used to start. He didn't embrace coming off the bench until last year I believe. And this after they won a couple titles.

 

[magnifier661]

The following is part of one of my posts from early summer. I'm not sure why the numbers work out this way, but it certainly is interesting. Roy as a SF is phenomenal, and better than as a SG. (Data from 82games.com.)...

"The surprise our ranking in net PER from the SF position. We were ranked 7th last year. This is misleading, as Roy played 25% of our SF minutes with a net PER of +18.3 (phenomenal!). Batum played 35% of SF minutes with a net PER of -1.6, and Travis played 37% of the SF minutes with a -3.1 PER. Of our "true" SF, Batum should improve, and Martell is back, replacing Travis. Martell's net PER in 07/08 was -2.7, so not much difference in net PER from Travis.
Roy's surprising strength at SF deserves some comparisons with the league's best (showing % of team's minutes at that position and net PER)

LeBron as SF: 56%, +20.8
Roy as SF: 25%, +18.3
Wade as SG: 67%, + 17.0
Kobe as SG: 72%, +14.1
Howard as C: 71%, +12.8
Roy SF/SG: 72%, +12.5
Roy as SG: 47%, +9.4
Anthony as SF: 54%, +8.2
Pierce as SF: 72%, + 5.7

This makes the Roy as SF idea all the more intriguing!"

Yeah I remembered reading this from someone else that posted it in "o-live" That's why it was intriguing to me as well. He will be much faster, and his ball handling will be so much better than many at that position. Also, I believe there are way more SGs that are just as quick and just as strong as he is, and he would use a ton of his energy to guard them on the defensive end.

 

[magnifier661]

Yes it is. And is it really so surprising? How long does the fourth best player on any team ever stay with that team? My guess is that those kind of guys never last more than 3 or 4 seasons.

We will have to eventually trade Rudy. But the good news is that he's such a talented player that we'll likely get a decent value in return.

As for your main point, it's pretty clear that Roy sees himself as a 2/1 and not as a 3/2. Why else would he drop weight over the summer? Myself, I kind of wish he'd gone the other direction and added a little more muscle so he could play more minutes at SF, but that wasn't what he decided to do.

Anyway, if there's one prototypical starting player found on nearly every championship team, it's the defensive specialist small forward. (I posted about this about a month ago.) You seemingly have to have one (unless you are Boston).

That's not Roy. That could be Batum.

Even with Fernandez leaving, I still think Roy is a better defender and scorer at the SF position. He would be the quicker player, which would make his game come to him much easier.

 

[hasoos]

I completely agree that Roy might have to play SF. All pre season I have been waiting for one of the young SF with "promise" to step up and act like they want the job. We have got nothing but non-production out of that position. That is not stepping up, it is stepping out. Roy is more than capable of playing SF, and we have a logjam at SG anyhow.

1. It shores up the SF position.
2. It gets Rudy playing time so he is happy.
3. It makes the starting unit stronger.
4. It makes the starting unit more capable of running.
5. Having Roy handle the ball from the SF position would be no different than when Pippen ran the show from that spot. It is effective with a Point-Forward type player.
6. Not many SF are going to out produce Roy from that position.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Well this may be a "non-factor" but I personally think Fernandez won't be too happy playing back-up for the rest of his NBA career. Are you saying it's okay to see him eventually go?

Rudy will be gone in a year or two. No way he accepts a back up role For his career.

 

[STOMP]

Remember Manu used to start. He didn't embrace coming off the bench until last year I believe. And this after they won a couple titles.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01.html

he has started exactly 1/2 the games since he came into the league. More importantly he has received minutes regardless and is paid like the productive star that he has been. My point is that it's not a given that a star type player will want to bolt just because they aren't starting. Another example would be Lamar Odom. Dude has been an All Star, he's in his prime (30 years old), yet he's paid and getting minutes coming off the bench for a contender.

STOMP

 

[magnifier661]

I completely agree that Roy might have to play SF. All pre season I have been waiting for one of the young SF with "promise" to step up and act like they want the job. We have got nothing but non-production out of that position. That is not stepping up, it is stepping out. Roy is more than capable of playing SF, and we have a logjam at SG anyhow.

1. It shores up the SF position.
2. It gets Rudy playing time so he is happy.
3. It makes the starting unit stronger.
4. It makes the starting unit more capable of running.
5. Having Roy handle the ball from the SF position would be no different than when Pippen ran the show from that spot. It is effective with a Point-Forward type player.
6. Not many SF are going to out produce Roy from that position.

I couldn't agree with you more. Seriously, I think Roy's advantage at SF is far greater than his disadvantages. At SG, he has so many quicker guards he has to chase around, and must fight through a ton of picks to stay on them. I think he uses much more energy playing SG than SF, IMO. PG isn't even an option in my mind.

 

[magnifier661]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01.html

he has started exactly 1/2 the games since he came into the league. More importantly he has received minutes regardless and is paid like the productive star that he has been. My point is that it's not a given that a star type player will want to bolt just because they aren't starting. Another example would be Lamar Odom. Dude has been an All Star, he's in his prime (30 years old), yet he's paid and getting minutes coming off the bench for a contender.

STOMP

So you think Rudy could accept being a 4th fiddle on this team? I'm curious, cause I worry about it.

 

[BenDavis503]

Brandon Roy is a SG period. Yes he can play some time at the 1 and 3, but he is a SG.

This.

Roy is NOT a SF.

 

[STOMP]

So you think Rudy could accept being a 4th fiddle on this team? I'm curious, cause I worry about it.

I'm not saying he will, but it's not out of the realm of possibilities.

We aren't really in the position to know such things and worrying won't help so might as well enjoy the ride. What you can take comfort in is that the current situation is a good one for the club. Rudy is a talented player who is unlikely to be dealt unless it was for real quality in return. That he's under contract (on the cheap!) for years to come only enhances this dynamic.

STOMP

 

[axs88]

So you think Rudy could accept being a 4th fiddle on this team? I'm curious, cause I worry about it.

Who cares? I love Rudy but if he doesn't want to be 4th fiddle on a loaded contender, then I am happy to see what he can fetch us.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

For me it boils down to who do I feel is better, overall, for the team; Rudy or Nic? I go with Nic and hence, Roy should be SG.

A simpleton's logic.

Gramps...

Well, call me a simpleton then, 'cause I agree with you.

 

[hasoos]

Rudy will be gone in a year or two. No way he accepts a back up role For his career.

Which is exactly why you slide Roy over to SF to play point forward and move Rudy into the starting lineup. It's time to start playing the truly talented players the bulk of the minutes and the rest of the players can just sit down, and STFU.

 

[RoyIsClutch07]

Was listening to Cowherd this morning, regarding Conservative or Liberal type people. He was trying to explain that he isn't conservative or liberal. He compared himself to a chameleon with no true political side, using Roy as an example. He said "I'm like Roy. Am I a guard or forward?"

I've been really thinking about this since last season. Hell even the end of the season before. In all honesty, I truly believe he is best used as a SF. Of course many of the arguments will be, don't want him to get beat up by the other stronger SFs, He works best playing with the ball, and What are we going to do with Batum or Webster.

Here is my suggestion that will still keep everyone happy.

1.) Go with a template of Roy, Aldridge, Oden and Fernandez as your "Core group". Bring in a vet PG every 3 years.

2.) Having a Starting line-up of: Miller, Fernandez, Roy, Aldridge and Oden. This group will focus more on the "inside out" game with Oden anchoring the post. Aldridge, Roy and Fernandez are very good from the perimeter, plus it saves their energy throughout the game.

3.) First subs: Batum for Fernandez and Blake for Miller. Roy moves to SG. This line-up will have more of Roy doing like what he did last season.

4.) Sencond subs: Webster for Roy, Pryzbilla for Oden. You use Aldridge as your main offensive man, but eventually bring in Fernandez for Batum, Outlaw for Aldridge and Miller for Blake. Then you have two offensive weapons with Miller being the facilitator.

5.) Manage the minutes so that in the last 5 minutes of the game, you have Miller, Fernandez, Roy, Aldridge and Oden closing it out for you.

With this kinda change-up, You can give plenty of minutes to the supporting cast, but keep it 30-35 minutes for those 4 players.

As for the advantages of Roy playing SF mostly. He is much quicker than most SFs in the game. Also, it's much harder to double a SF, than a SG. And defensively, I honestly believe it would be a much easier handle. SGs have to fight through pick after pick, usually set by centers and PFs to stick with their man. A SF doesn't move without the ball as much, so Roy could gamble and play the "passing lanes".

I maybe totally "off" on this, but it's something I've been really thinking about for quite some time. Thoughts?

I think at 6'5" and 205 he is too small to play the position consistantly and would hate to see him there for longer stretches of the game.

 

[mook]

Even with Fernandez leaving, I still think Roy is a better defender and scorer at the SF position. He would be the quicker player, which would make his game come to him much easier.

The problems are, in decreasing importance, LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Carmello Anthony and Kevin Durant (eventually).

To win a championship you pretty much have to get through several, if not all, of those guys. To beat any of those guys, you have to have a decent-sized wingman who can spend the night focusing on containing them with determined, hard nosed defense.

Roy runs up fantastic PER's at SF against most of the league. No doubt about it. But I suspect it ain't nearly so easy if he's expected to guard against those guys for 35 mpg.

So yeah, over the course of a season he'll do great at SF. We can definitely win 55-63 games with Roy at SF. But then the playoffs come around and you've got to beat some of those elite guys in a seven game series, we're almost certainly going to have to ditch Roy at SF. He'll be trying to guard LeBron on one end, and have to go up against a string of defensive role players on the other. It's just too much to ask.

I'd rather us just build our lineup around the idea that Roy is a shooting guard. I don't want to have to tinker with which position my superstar plays in the middle of (hopefully) a championship run.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Yes it is. And is it really so surprising? How long does the fourth best player on any team ever stay with that team? My guess is that those kind of guys never last more than 3 or 4 seasons.

We will have to eventually trade Rudy. But the good news is that he's such a talented player that we'll likely get a decent value in return.

As for your main point, it's pretty clear that Roy sees himself as a 2/1 and not as a 3/2. Why else would he drop weight over the summer? Myself, I kind of wish he'd gone the other direction and added a little more muscle so he could play more minutes at SF, but that wasn't what he decided to do.

Anyway, if there's one prototypical starting player found on nearly every championship team, it's the defensive specialist small forward. (I posted about this about a month ago.) You seemingly have to have one (unless you are Boston).

That's not Roy. That could be Batum.

Actually even Boston had one -- James Posey.

 

[Minstrel]

Regarding Rudy, it's the type of problem that will work itself out organically. Either he will develop into the kind of player who's forcing the team to play him starter minutes (30-35) in order to have a better chance to win games or he won't.

If he does, then he's got the minutes and role he wants, even if he's not starting. If he doesn't, how valuable is a player who hasn't clearly distinguished himself as a guy who the team needs to play big minutes after four seasons? It won't be agonizing to lose him if he's merely a good role-player. Good role-players matter, but they are transitory parts of the team...you rarely have a role-player with a ten year career for a single team.

It's hard to contrive a situation where the team really needs to play him big minutes to have a better chance to win, but doesn't. Therefore, it's hard to contrive a situation where he's both the essential to the team and unwilling to stay.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Which is exactly why you slide Roy over to SF to play point forward and move Rudy into the starting lineup. It's time to start playing the truly talented players the bulk of the minutes and the rest of the players can just sit down, and STFU.

Roy likes to play lighter. He dropped weight this year and now weighs about 210ish. Some players are what they are. Roy, Kobe, Redd....they can all play the 3, but they are 2's. Even players like Lebron, who is big enough to be a 4, is a 3. Clyde Drexler was 6'7" and weighed around 225, yet he was a 2. Magic 6'9", but was a 1

 

[Nikolokolus]

So you think Rudy could accept being a 4th fiddle on this team? I'm curious, cause I worry about it.

Rudy's gotta show me he can do more than just cut off of screens and shoot three pointers before I'd get too worried about him accepting a "4th fiddle" role on this team. He's not a great defender (so far) his handles are pretty weak (and I watched enough of his ACB games and his run through the Olympics to help validate that opinion) and he's not strong enough to consistently drive inside without eventually getting hurt (Trevor Ariza clobbering him springs to mind).

Let's let Rudy demonstrate he's a little more well rounded or like most other people around here I have zero problem trading him packaged up with a couple of other young guys to get a position of need filled -- like point guard in a couple of years when Miller is out of the picture.

 

[Masbee]

Brandon Roy is a SG period. Yes he can play some time at the 1 and 3, but he is a SG.

Yes, this.

Cowherd is not the sharpest tool in the shed.

I mean, he used the example of a player who is 90% a SG, as an example of a player who is supposed to be a little of this and a little of that to contrast to his politics supposedly being a little of this and a little of that, when in reality it isn't his politics that are "versatile" it is the failing of the over-simplistic definitions. People aren't "Left" or "Right".

 

[magnifier661]

Let's let Rudy demonstrate he's a little more well rounded or like most other people around here I have zero problem trading him packaged up with a couple of other young guys to get a position of need filled -- like point guard in a couple of years when Miller is out of the picture.

Fair enough. And for the most part I do agree. But, and this is a big Butt, like the Clump's butts, many around the NBA think he can and will do extremely well in this league. And sometimes, waiting until the last minute makes the cost go way way up.

 

[magnifier661]

Yes, this.

Cowherd is not the sharpest tool in the shed.

I mean, he used the example of a player who is 90% a SG, as an example of a player who is supposed to be a little of this and a little of that to contrast to his politics supposedly being a little of this and a little of that, when in reality it isn't his politics that are "versatile" it is the failing of the over-simplistic definitions. People aren't "Left" or "Right".

Oh believe me, I'm not basing my opinion on what Cowherd said. It just reminds me of what I've been thinking about for quite some time. I just wanted to tell the story on why the light bulb flashed in my head to post this.

 

[Masbee]

This makes the Roy as SF idea all the more intriguing!"

No.

No it doesn't.

Nate likes to play small ball when the matchups warrant.

Read that again. Note the key word. Hint: Matchups.

Brandon Roy is NOT a full-time NBA Small Forward against most other team's starting small forwards.

Brandon himself seems to agree since he shed weight for this season - the exact opposite of what he would do if he were inclined to spend more and more time as a forward.

Please. Let's stop this discussion.