Rumor: Blazers discussions with Suns

[JE]

I wouldn't trade LMA.
KP drafted LMA, and it sounds like he wouldn't either.

The only way Phoenix should deal Amare to Portland is if they get LMA.

 

[oldmangrouch]

If Amare can't stomach sharing the ball with a future HOFer in Shaq......how will he respond any time Oden touches the ball?

After reading the Aschburner article on SI, I am not real enthusiastic about this idea.

 

[drexlersdad]

The only way Phoenix should deal Amare to Portland is if they get LMA.

ha! what is their alternative? tyrus thomas? jj hickson? not to mention that raefs deal trumps all of their expirings MIGHTILY.

outlaw/bayless/raef is better than what everyone else is offering. and then some.

do you dissagree?

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

tri-towers?

 

[drexlersdad]

tri-towers?

quad towers.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

would be sweet. fulfill my dream of a team of 7-footers.

 

[JE]

ha! what is their alternative? tyrus thomas? jj hickson? not to mention that raefs deal trumps all of their expirings MIGHTILY.

I think Hickson will turn out to be a pretty good player (and acquiring Amare would put the Cavs season up in flames, so I hope that deal happens >=D ), and Phoenix would do well to get him and Wally's expiring deal.

outlaw/bayless/raef is better than what everyone else is offering. and then some.

If Golden State is as active as is being reported, I'd take a package with Monta Ellis and Brandan Wright over Outlaw/Bayless/Raef pretty quickly. No one really knows what GS is offering, but they are reported to be chasing Amare, and they have to give at least one of Ellis or Biedrins.

But we don't know what everyone else is offering, and no deal is imminent, so its hard to speculate. Remember, its not a 'have to' thing right now with Phoenix and Amare. If the Suns don't like any trade offers they get before the 19th, they can just hold on to him and try again in the offseason.

 

[BengalDuck]

Package of Joel + Outlaw for Amar'e to have a 4-5 rotation of Aldridge, Oden, and Stoudimire?

 

[JE]

Package of Joel + Outlaw for Amar'e to have a 4-5 rotation of Aldridge, Oden, and Stoudimire?

Yeah but Phoenix has to agree to it too.

 

[drexlersdad]

I think Hickson will turn out to be a pretty good player (and acquiring Amare would put the Cavs season up in flames, so I hope that deal happens >=D ), and Phoenix would do well to get him and Wally's expiring deal.



If Golden State is as active as is being reported, I'd take a package with Monta Ellis and Brandan Wright over Outlaw/Bayless/Raef pretty quickly. No one really knows what GS is offering, but they are reported to be chasing Amare, and they have to give at least one of Ellis or Biedrins.

But we don't know what everyone else is offering, and no deal is imminent, so its hard to speculate. Remember, its not a 'have to' thing right now with Phoenix and Amare. If the Suns don't like any trade offers they get before the 19th, they can just hold on to him and try again in the offseason.

wow, sarver wouldnt. he wants to cut costs, not take on 6 years of ellis. that is redonkulous. and if it is hard to speculate, why would you state with certainty that phoenix wouldnt do it without lma?

out of any rumored deals with large expirings, outlaw/bayless/raef trumps them all. that is all i was saying. if you like jj hickson more than outlaw and bayless, it would have to be ALOT more, to offset the large difference in raefs savings vs wallys.

 

[Minstrel]

out of any rumored deals with large expirings, outlaw/bayless/raef trumps them all. that is all i was saying. if you like jj hickson more than outlaw and bayless, it would have to be ALOT more, to offset the large difference in raefs savings vs wallys.

If the "best offer" is terrible, Phoenix just won't trade him. I'm not yet willing to believe that Sarver wants to cut salary at any cost in talent. Outlaw and Bayless is a pretty lame return on one of the best young big men in the game. Unless Sarver is 100% desperate, I think he'd just hang onto Amare. Also, I think some team would better that offer before the trade deadline. It's so low-ball, other teams can better it and still be getting a deal.

 

[JE]

wow, sarver wouldnt. he wants to cut costs, not take on 6 years of ellis. that is redonkulous.

From a talent perspective, its the Suns' best bet (save an LMA deal). They have two other guys with gigantic contracts who expire next summer, so they can either trade them for an expiring deal for this year (Shaq for Iverson maybe, it would make sense for both teams), or just keep them and let all that money roll off the books in 2010.

and if it is hard to speculate, why would you state with certainty that phoenix wouldnt do it without lma?

Because they don't have to do anything in the next 8 days if they don't like the offers.

 

[BIG Q]

I am listening to AM 620, KTAR in Phoenix (I live in Tempe). This is the station that broadcasts Suns games on the radio. They said there is "nothing to it" regarding the CBS Sportsline report that Portland is offering LA/Bayless/RLEC for Amare. They said that Portland will not trade LA. They went on to say that "if it could be done the Suns should do it." They all but said that Portland is not a suitor for Amare. I would contend that KP is only kicking the brush to see if he can scare out a no brainer or to be involved in a multi-team trade.

 

[hasoos]

I don't buy the Lamarcus is needed to make the trade happen, because the facts are Phoenix needs good old american cash help more than anything. I was watching the NBA beat last night, and they had 3 NBA writers on (Frank Isola, Sam Smith, David Aldridge). Every single one of them said the following: They are trading Amare for the wrong reasons, (ease salary cap) and out of the Suns players, they are trading the one guy they should build around. In other words, the Suns are just looking to clear salary problems. That means whatever does that best, will be the deal they will take. If they get talent back, great, but do not consider it necessary to get this deal done.

 

[Minstrel]

If they get talent back, great, but do not consider it necessary to get this deal done.

I won't believe that until I see it. No matter how many media types say it. It's just unfathomable that Phoenix is ready to give Amare away free, for haul-away costs.

But I certainly hope Pritchard is trying.

 

[hasoos]

I won't believe that until I see it. No matter how many media types say it. It's just unfathomable that Phoenix is ready to give Amare away free, for haul-away costs.

But I certainly hope Pritchard is trying.

Hell, I probably won't believe it when I see it.

 

[JE]

I don't buy the Lamarcus is needed to make the trade happen, because the facts are Phoenix needs good old american cash help more than anything. I was watching the NBA beat last night, and they had 3 NBA writers on (Frank Isola, Sam Smith, David Aldridge). Every single one of them said the following: They are trading Amare for the wrong reasons, (ease salary cap) and out of the Suns players, they are trading the one guy they should build around. In other words, the Suns are just looking to clear salary problems. That means whatever does that best, will be the deal they will take. If they get talent back, great, but do not consider it necessary to get this deal done.

First, those writers are fucking retards. If they rebuild around Amare, it would take at least 3 years for that team to be respectable, and that's if things go at warp speed. Amare can leave in a year and half for nothing, and hang the Suns out to dry. He's not stick around if the team sucks, and he's not going to stick around on the premise of 'well, things might be good down the road'. He won't do it, he'll jump to New York or Chicago in a nano-second. They HAVE to deal Amare before 2010, so they can get some value for him. They just don't have to do it right this minute.

Second, I really doubt Sarver will completely sacrifice talent just for salary relief. Yes, he's a cheap shit and he wants to slash payroll, but if his team can acquire guys like Ellis and Wright, who can guarantee a bright court future for the Suns, but have to take Jamal Crawford's contract, I think he'd at least consider it. Phoenix has two other giant trade chips too, remember (Shaq, Nash). They can wait for those two's giant contracts to run out in 2010, or trade one of them in the next week for a contract that expires this year. Its not the end of the world if Amare doesn't bring loads of cap relief.

 

[hasoos]

First, those writers are fucking retards. If they rebuild around Amare, it would take at least 3 years for that team to be respectable, and that's if things go at warp speed. Amare can leave in a year and half for nothing, and hang the Suns out to dry. He's not stick around if the team sucks, and he's not going to stick around on the premise of 'well, things might be good down the road'. He won't do it, he'll jump to New York or Chicago in a nano-second. They HAVE to deal Amare before 2010, so they can get some value for him. They just don't have to do it right this minute.

Second, I really doubt Sarver will completely sacrifice talent just for salary relief. Yes, he's a cheap shit and he wants to slash payroll, but if his team can acquire guys like Ellis and Wright, who can guarantee a bright court future for the Suns, but have to take Jamal Crawford's contract, I think he'd at least consider it. Phoenix has two other giant trade chips too, remember (Shaq, Nash). They can wait for those two's giant contracts to run out in 2010, or trade one of them in the next week for a contract that expires this year. Its not the end of the world if Amare doesn't bring loads of cap relief.

Here is my problem with your post. You are shooting the messengers. None of those guys said it would be a good move to do what they are doing, they are just reporting what they are hearing out there. They even said it was just what they had heard through the NBA grapevine. All 3 had heard the same things. They all agreed it would be a bad move to move him merely for cap purposes. So how does that make them fucking retards?

 

[JE]

So how does that make them fucking retards?

You said that the writers thought that Phoenix should be building around Stoudemire. Except that Stoudemire can and will leave in 2010, for absolutely nothing, setting Phoenix's franchise back at least five years and leaving them a future of Leandro Barbosa, Goran Dragic, and Robin Lopez. If that is Isola's, Smith's, and Aldridge's actual opinion, then all three of them are fucking stupid. Because for me to consider them something other than complete morons, they'd have to be quoting someone else's opinions, which you didn't give any indication they were doing.

 

[ehizzy3]

You said that the writers thought that Phoenix should be building around Stoudemire. Except that Stoudemire can and will leave in 2010, for absolutely nothing, setting Phoenix's franchise back at least five years and leaving them a future of Leandro Barbosa, Goran Dragic, and Robin Lopez. If that is Isola's, Smith's, and Aldridge's actual opinion, then all three of them are fucking stupid. Because for me to consider them something other than complete morons, they'd have to be quoting someone else's opinions, which you didn't give any indication they were doing.

um....he just said thats what all 3 of them were hearing. not their opinion. they are actually hearing this from their sources...

 

[Minstrel]

Second, I really doubt Sarver will completely sacrifice talent just for salary relief. Yes, he's a cheap shit and he wants to slash payroll, but if his team can acquire guys like Ellis and Wright, who can guarantee a bright court future for the Suns, but have to take Jamal Crawford's contract, I think he'd at least consider it.

Ellis and Wright don't guarantee a bright future for the Suns. Also, Ellis and Crawford combined is a ton of salary commitment. If part of the issue is cutting salary, he's not going to take on lots of salary. He's going to look for offers of cheap, young talent.

Phoenix has two other giant trade chips too, remember (Shaq, Nash).

Shaq isn't a trade chip. At $20 million per year, he can't be moved this year. Next year, he might be moveable as an expiring contract...but trading him as an expiring contract would mean taking back $20 million of non-expiring contracts which, again, is not consistent with Sarver wanting to cut salary.

Nash is tradeable, but what I've read is that Phoenix is worried that fans will lose interest if Nash is dealt, because he's the main draw. Therefore, from a financial perspective, he may not be a trade chip, either.

It really all depends on how much Sarver wants salary relief versus fielding a good basketball team. If he feels he needs to cut salary no matter what, he may be boxed in in terms of an Amare trade. Amare may be the only big contract he can move and there may not be many teams who can offer both expiring contracts and cheap, young players.

 

[JE]

um....he just said thats what all 3 of them were hearing. not their opinion. they are actually hearing this from their sources...

The reporters gave an opinion that the Suns should build around Stoudemire.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Can't stop myself tinkering with a Chicago-Portland-Phoenix trade! I like this version best:

<body>
&nbsp;
<table BORDER COLS=5 WIDTH="100%" >
<tr>
<td></td>

<td>gives up</td>

<td>gets</td>

<td>pros</td>

<td>cons</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td>Chicago</td>

<td>Deng
<br>Tyrus Thomas
<br>Hinrich
<br>Nocioni
<br>Cedric Simmons</td>

<td>Stoudemire
<br>Steve Blake
<br>RLEC</td>

<td>Get Stoudemire
<br>Dump a LOT of long term contracts
<br>&nbsp;</td>

<td>Lose Deng (BUT he has a large contract and he's been up and down)&nbsp;
<br>Lose Hinrich (BUT large contract, and Blake does a lot of the same
for less)
<br>Lose Thomas just as he was looking good (BUT sell high!)</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td>Phoenix</td>

<td>Stoudemire</td>

<td>Tyrus Thomas
<br>Travis Outlaw
<br>Channing&nbsp;
<br>Diogu
<br>(plus rights to Freeland?&nbsp; Picks?&nbsp; Cash?)</td>

<td>Outlaw and Thomas are young, athletic and cheap
<br>The other two are filler with expiring contracts and AZ connections</td>

<td>Some fans still think of Stoudemire as All-NBA and won't like any trade</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td>Portland</td>

<td>Travis
<br>Blake
<br>RLEC
<br>Channing
<br>Diogu</td>

<td>Deng
<br>Hinrich
<br>Nocioni
<br>Simmons</td>

<td>Deng and Hinrich are upgrades on Travis and Blake
<br>Nocioni adds much needed toughness and defense</td>

<td>There goes our cap space!
<br>All three have ridiculous long-term contracts</td>
</tr></table></body>

Why do it? If you think that Deng and Hinrich are significant upgrades. I think they are. Would the others do it? Well, if Phoenix is desperate to dump Stoudemire they're already at a disadvantage. But they won't give him up unless it's for a fair amount. The question is, would Chicago do it. The price is fairly steep: Deng and Thomas are two players they don't want to give up, and they might still like Hinrich. But Hinrich is way overpaid, and they would probably regard cap flexibility as a significant bonus. What are they left with? Rose, Gordon, Stoudemire and...? Well, I think Noah can do a lot of the dirty work that Stoudemire doesn't like to do. Stoudemire plays C, where he's most effective. They can even afford to re-sign Gordon, which they really should do, and I think he becomes even more valuable with Stoudemire in there. Their defense goes way down, but (a) they can give more time to Thabo, who can't score but can defend, and hope that Rose, Noah and the Swiss Mister on D make up for Gordon and Stoudemire. And they've already committed to runnin' and gunnin', and that team should be great for it.

 

[JE]

Ellis and Wright don't guarantee a bright future for the Suns. Also, Ellis and Crawford combined is a ton of salary commitment. If part of the issue is cutting salary, he's not going to take on lots of salary. He's going to look for offers of cheap, young talent.

Ellis and Wright is a great starting point, and probably as much talent as they'll get back in an Amare trade. Out of the three wing players GS would likely have to include to make salaries work (Crawford, Jackson, Maggette), Crawford's deal expires first.

Shaq isn't a trade chip. At $20 million per year, he can't be moved this year. Next year, he might be moveable as an expiring contract...but trading him as an expiring contract would mean taking back $20 million of non-expiring contracts which, again, is not consistent with Sarver wanting to cut salary.

I doubt the teams are discussing it, but I think a Shaq for Iverson deal would help both sides. Shaq gives the Pistons a big gun down low, and he might be able to vault them right back into the Eastern conference discussion (and his deal expires right in 2010). Iverson's an expiring deal.

Nash is tradeable, but what I've read is that Phoenix is worried that fans will lose interest if Nash is dealt, because he's the main draw. Therefore, from a financial perspective, he may not be a trade chip, either.

I label Shaq more likely to be traded than Nash, but I don't think a Nash deal is out of the realm of possibility. If Phoenix can land an expiring for him (they probably could, considering how many teams he'd really help).

 

[Shooter]

Wheels just said on The Game that he thinks KP is bluffing and letting the Amare rumors roll to up the cost for other teams and help KP get the player/deal he really wants.

Ha. That would be a very clever ploy on KP's part!

 

[hasoos]

You said that the writers thought that Phoenix should be building around Stoudemire. Except that Stoudemire can and will leave in 2010, for absolutely nothing, setting Phoenix's franchise back at least five years and leaving them a future of Leandro Barbosa, Goran Dragic, and Robin Lopez. If that is Isola's, Smith's, and Aldridge's actual opinion, then all three of them are fucking stupid. Because for me to consider them something other than complete morons, they'd have to be quoting someone else's opinions, which you didn't give any indication they were doing.

Yes they did say that. Because if you are going to rebuild a team, you build around the young talent and committ to it, which keeps it in town, with a contract, which would completely blows your "theory" out of the water. It's all about deciding a direction, and doing what is necessary to make sure you attain your goals for that direction. Why do you think its a really good idea to retool on the fly, and rebuild around a bunch of players who are approaching the age of 40?

 

[JE]

Yes they did say that. Because if you are going to rebuild a team, you build around the young talent and committ to it, which keeps it in town, with a contract, which would completely blows your "theory" out of the water. It's all about deciding a direction, and doing what is necessary to make sure you attain your goals for that direction. Why do you think its a really good idea to retool on the fly, and rebuild around a bunch of players who are approaching the age of 40?

WTF are you even talking about?

1) WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU FORGO TRADING AND GETTING VALUE FOR A GUY WHO WILL LEAVE FOR NOTHING IN 2010?

2) WHERE THE FUCK DID I SAY THAT THE SUNS SHOULD RE-TOOL AROUND SHAQ AND NASH? THEY SHOULD TRADE THEM TOO!

3) What 'blows my theory out of the water', champ? You think building franchises around guys who are a lock to leave in a year and a half is a good way to do business, as opposed to trading that player in question, along with the two players approaching 40, and getting some semblance of value before they leave town for jack shit in 2010, is a good way to run a franchise? That would leave you with a future of Leandro Barbosa, Robin Lopez, Goran Dragic, and Alando Tucker. One mother fucker of a business plan there.

 

[Blaze01]

Phoenix receives: Bayless, RLEC, LMA
Toronto receives: Amare
Portland receives: Bosh, Barnes

THAT would be a tremendous deal for POR!

Chris Bosh is one of the most underated players in the NBA, he is just a tremendous player...and yes, he is a MUCH better player NOW than Aldridge is. I like Aldridge a lot and I do think that Bayless will be a good NBA player, but if POR could flip Amare for Chris Bosh that would be a coup for Pritchard....I don't see TOR wanting or more importantly feeling that they could hold on to Amare though.....

and I like the idea of adding Barnes as a vet too, solid veteran player all around....


As for the Amare\LA debate...Here are my concerns....

Amare's impending free agency (2010)...Certainly you would like some assurances (and how do you do that?) that he would resign, and you just cannot 100% guarantee that (see Carlos Boozer)....

The age difference is something to think about, Amare is in his prime playing days right now IMO...Aldridge is still developing into a better player....Will he keep improving? Will he reach Amare's level? These are unknowns, but based upon AAldridge's improvement in the short time he has been here, I don't think either is out of the question...and the other question is, Does Aldridgr need to hit Amare's level for POR to win an NBA championship? I don't think he necessariyl does, as it stands now he is already playing at a level that is worthy of All Star talk\consideration...Is it really a stretch to say he may improve in the next few years? I don't think it is....

Lastly, Amare's combustible nature...I mean his desire to be "The man", the remarks\blame for his teams lack of success, the comment that APPEAR that he values his own play\success over his team's success....You have to have a little concern for the chemistry.....and Aldridge, by all acoounts is well liked by all of his teamates....

Should POR be concerned about Amare's past knee injuries? Perhaps...Certainly it merits a very careful look into the situation...

All in all, I would rather POR NOT trade Aldridge for Amare...but I certainly disagree with many of you about Amare's "level\ability" as a player...He is a TREMENDOUS offensive force...and certainly a better player than Aldridge is today....His defense is lackluster but not horrible like some of you claim....and this may (uh...certainly is) be a mental issue more than a physical nature...I think he certainly could be a good ddefnder if he chose to do so...Can he buy into Nate's system, or is it Amare that comes 1st and foremost?

Amare, Raef & Bayless certainyl seems on the "high end" of a price to pay to acquire Amare IMO...especially since he could walk from POR in 2 years time....

Forget Amare...if your going to deal LA...then deal him for Chris Bosh....

 

[MikeDC]

That's not very good evidence, IMO. Most of the pre-D'Antoni years were developing years for Amare. He would have been expected to improve with age. Which leaves us only with:



One year is just too small a sample. But this is important to point out:

2007-08: 27.6 PER / 28.2 USG%
2008-09: 20.1 PER / 24.4 USG%

His usage rate has fallen dramatically this year. If Phoenix is not putting the ball in his hands as much, due to featuring Shaq, it's not a surprise his productivity dropped. Last season, Phoenix wasn't featuring Shaq...this year, thanks to Kerr's (confused, IMO) philosophies, they are.

PER is factoring in lots of other stuff, so I'd look at ORtg. Typically there's in inverse relationship between ORtg and usage. That is, it's hard to maintain a high ORtg the more possessions you use.

Players that can maintain a very high ORtg while maintaining a very high usage rate are few and far between. Those are your #1 options. They can score both efficiently and at high volume.

I'd guess it's very system oriented, but Amare has seen his ORtg decline (117 to 99) at the same time as his usage rate, which suggests he's playing all around worse.

 

[MikeDC]

Ellis and Wright is a great starting point, and probably as much talent as they'll get back in an Amare trade. Out of the three wing players GS would likely have to include to make salaries work (Crawford, Jackson, Maggette), Crawford's deal expires first.

The Warriors could do something like offer Turiaf and Azubuike instead of one of those three, and even get the Suns below the LT by redirecting one of them (and cash?) to a team like Memphis. Like this.