Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges... (MERGED)

[Bosco]

Insider on ESPN.... Anyone get a chance to read the article? What's it about? I'd love to know

 

[B-Roy]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

A new Oden (foul) plan: McMillan has decided to take a different approach in the ongoing effort to help Oden ditch his foul trouble.

Before Saturday night's game, McMillan had a "one foul per quarter" rule for Oden, meaning if the Blazers' starting center accumulated two fouls by halftime, he would watch from the bench until the third quarter.

But the tactic had been hit-and-miss, with one of the biggest misses coming during a difference-making second quarter in Friday's loss at Golden State. As Oden sat with two fouls, the Warriors used a 17-2 run near the end of the first half to take a 56-52 halftime lead. The momentum-swinging run prompted McMillan to change his Oden Plan.

"He's going to have to figure it out," McMillan said. "Both he and LaMarcus have been in foul trouble. I've been thinking about it, (and) they have to learn to play with two fouls and stay out of foul trouble. We need them on the floor."

Oden has shown improvement, and McMillan hopes a longer leash will further the center's development. At one point in the third quarter against Minnesota, Oden was late rotating on defense, which allowed Al Jefferson to breeze by for an uncontested driving layup. Oden could have -- and in the past likely would have -- attempted an ill-advised block on Jefferson that almost certainly would have resulted in a foul.

But this time Oden pulled up near the basket and allowed the two points.

"I see the improvement," Roy said. "I notice now sometimes he'll just give up a layup. It's a long game. So it's like, hey, let's give it to them and let's move our feet next time and do a much better job. Hopefully we can keep him out of foul trouble because he makes us a better team when he's out there on the court."

Victory!

 

[BlazerCaravan]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

I'll say this for Nate... when he does something (so) stupid (that I notice), he really seems to learn from it.

Also, Greg seems to have figured out how to play defense at a solid 8 instead of trying to turn it up to 11 all the time.

 

[SpanishFly]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

lets hope so, the 2 foul rule was idiotic.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

It's like Nate reads my posts.


He is so slow to figure it out, but, most of the time, he comes around

 

[Mediocre Man]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

I'll say this for Nate... when he does something (so) stupid (that I notice), he really seems to learn from it.

Also, Greg seems to have figured out how to play defense at a solid 8 instead of trying to turn it up to 11 all the time.

I noticed that too. I like the fact that he seems to be learning when to let players go.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

It's like Nate reads my posts.

He has you on ignore, but he's forced to read it when I quote you and amplify.

 

[BBert]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

It's like Nate reads my posts.


He is so slow to figure it out, but, most of the time, he comes around

I just thought that since Nate is almost as stubborn as you, whenever you disagree with him he sets his jaw and digs in his heels.

Try some reverse psychology on him. Please. The board thanks you.

 

[Boise Blazer]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

The key to this "new" rule is that if (or should I say when) he does pick up a 3rd foul in the first half then McMillan cant freak out and change the rules again. Even if it happens a few times. Even if it costs us a few games. Because the whole point is for Oden to learn how to defend without getting into foul trouble. At some point you have to understand that the only way to learn is to work though it. Benching him really serves no purpose. The other thing is that Nate needs to reward Oden with extensive playing time in the games that he stays out of trouble. Even if we are winning. It a learning process.

 

[hasoos]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

You know I rip on Nate a lot. But I have to also give him props when he learns from his mistakes. I think the main thing right now is Nate is in a period where he is learning too. He is now having to learn how to give up control that he has held on to with a white knuckled grip for the last few years. Kudos to Nate for learning from some of his mistakes.

 

[magnifier661]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

The worst part of keeping Oden out of the first half with just two fouls takes away his timing as well. He comes out strong, gets two fouls, then gets ice cold. I also think that he thinks about his fouling more, which alters his game. It's a good thing for Nate to let the Beast play.

 

[Boise Blazer]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

I would seriously rather him foul out of a few games in the 3rd quarter or early 4th quarter so he can learn from his mistakes rather than bench him.

 

[magnifier661]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

I would seriously rather him foul out of a few games in the 3rd quarter or early 4th quarter so he can learn from his mistakes then bench him.

Me too. Force the refs to do this, so they can be exploited for their terrible calls. Everytime Oden fouls out late in the third or early in the 4th, even fans from other teams will be watching and questioning the calls.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

The orignial plan had some merit, but Nate's strict adherence to it probably cost us the Warriors game. Good on him for recognizing the difficulty it can cause, but I just wish he could make these adjustments in game and not have to spend three days ruminating on what to do.

 

[andalusian]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

The orignial plan had some merit, but Nate's strict adherence to it probably cost us the Warriors game. Good on him for recognizing the difficulty it can cause, but I just wish he could make these adjustments in game and not have to spend three days ruminating on what to do.

How long has he been running this system? For 8 games or so?

There is always a fine line between being strict and inflexible and being a flip-flopper.

8 Games, in the grand scheme of things, is not that big of a deal, imho.

 

[Idog1976]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

The orignial plan had some merit, but Nate's strict adherence to it probably cost us the Warriors game. Good on him for recognizing the difficulty it can cause, but I just wish he could make these adjustments in game and not have to spend three days ruminating on what to do.

Well said yet again Nik. Nate seems to need a night to "sleep on it" when it comes to changing things. If he could just learn to read the flow of games he could be an amazing coach. He certainly seems to be pretty good at pre-game coaching. My problem has always been with his in game decisions and robotic substitutions. As he is starting to temper the latter, it gives me hope for the former.

 

[Ed O]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

What is up with Nate?

Oden: not part of the offense (just focus on rebounding and defense). Scrapped that plan.
Three guard lineup: get Miller in the lineup. Scrapped that plan.
Oden: one foul per quarter. Scrapped that plan.

I am glad he's scrapping shitty plans, but the plans were bad from the get-go. Why does he put such stupid plans in place at all?

Ed O.

 

[magnifier661]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

What is up with Nate?

Oden: not part of the offense (just focus on rebounding and defense). Scrapped that plan.
Three guard lineup: get Miller in the lineup. Scrapped that plan.
Oden: one foul per quarter. Scrapped that plan.

I am glad he's scrapping shitty plans, but the plans were bad from the get-go. Why does he put such stupid plans in place at all?

Ed O.

Too worried about the role players, and knowing that he thinks he has more time developing Oden. I think that is the biggest farce. Oden is the key to our success. And until Nate 100% agrees with that, we are in some trouble.

 

[axs88]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

The other thing is that Nate needs to reward Oden with extensive playing time in the games that he stays out of trouble. Even if we are winning. It a learning process.

I agree. Take the last game for example. He finished with 2 fouls, yet he sat the entire 4th quarter. Yes, it was a blowout and Przy was playing well and you never want to injure your starters in a blowout, but he needs to gain more confidence and be rewarded for not fouling.

 

[Natebishop3]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

It's about fucking time.

 

[mook]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

What is up with Nate?

Oden: not part of the offense (just focus on rebounding and defense). Scrapped that plan.
Three guard lineup: get Miller in the lineup. Scrapped that plan.
Oden: one foul per quarter. Scrapped that plan.

I am glad he's scrapping shitty plans, but the plans were bad from the get-go. Why does he put such stupid plans in place at all?

Ed O.

In each of the instances you cited, there were significant problems with the way players were playing. It appears that McMillan used his few real powers (minutes played, bully pulpit) to impact those problems positively:

Oden not part of the offense --
Problem: Oden put too much pressure on himself last year. He was developing a really depressed attitude, and it was affecting his play at times.
Nate's solution: Through his statement McMillan was trying to make it seem that Oden's role was no different from Przybilla this year, and if he had more hiccups it was really no big deal, because his playing time was basically interchangeable with Joel's. (Whether Nate actually felt that way himself is impossible to say. I hope he was lying.)
Oden is now flat out dominating, and forcing his way into offensive sets. He's got a big grin every game, and he just seems like a different player.
Nate's "flip flop": Is Oden's success entirely (or even at all) due to McMillan's "plan"? Impossible to say. But if our coach was Phil Jackson, we'd all be nodding that his brilliant mind game succeeded. Instead we are pointing out how his plan "failed" because Nate was able to ditch it.

Three guard lineup --
Problem: Our perimeter defense in the early games was pretty porous. We'd lost 3 of our first 5 games. Nobody was happy. Something had to change.
Nate's solution: Nate inserts Miller into the starting lineup, and we immediately beat the Spurs, and win a total of 8 of the 10 following games.
Now I definitely would've preferred benching Blake instead of going with Miller and Webster at the time, but in hindsight I'll gladly take the results we got.
Nate's "flip flop": Now Webster has a nice game so we can feel a little better about starting him at SF. Blake has a rare decent game. Our bench looks pretty sad though, and Roy is tired of getting beat up at SF. Rather than play out the three guard lineup until it completely breaks down, we ditch it and hope that whatever was wrong with the original starting lineup has been cured.

Oden's one foul per quarter --
Problem: After a full season of picking up fouls at a ridiculous rate, Oden started this year without any sign of progress in that department. In the first 6 games he was averaging 5 fouls a game.
Nate's solution: Nate makes a new rule that immediately puts the spotlight square on this issue. Suddenly the only thing that matters to Oden is to not get that second early foul, because he's going to get the yank every time. Oden gives up on a play here and there when he's clearly beat. But because he's not in as much foul trouble, he's suddenly given the freedom to be much more aggressive on the offensive end.
Results: Over the past 7 games he's averaging 3.5 fouls a game.
Nate's "flip flop": Nate's policy pretty much cost us a win against Golden State. Nate almost certainly knows it. This probably seemed like a good a time as any to see if Oden's sudden attention to fouling can translate into bigger minutes. So Nate's ditching a rule that somewhat succeeded in reducing Oden's habit of fouling, but cost us a win in the process. I don't think the rule was ever intended to be anything more than a wakeup call for Oden, and it appears that he did indeed wake up.

I'm no Nate apologist. I'd personally prefer Blake to never see a start again (barring injuries to Rudy, Miller and Fernandez). I hated the way he sent Aldridge to the bench for early fouls. I can't begin to understand what Bayless has done to draw so much misuse by Nate.

That said, there often is some kind of method to the madness with some of his plans. And I wouldn't hold it against him for abandoning them when the solution no longer seems to fit.

 

[magnifier661]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

In each of the instances you cited, there were significant problems with the way players were playing. It appears that McMillan used his few real powers (minutes played, bully pulpit) to impact those problems positively:

Oden not part of the offense --
Problem: Oden put too much pressure on himself last year. He was developing a really depressed attitude, and it was affecting his play at times.
Nate's solution: Through his statement McMillan was trying to make it seem that Oden's role was no different from Przybilla this year, and if he had more hiccups it was really no big deal, because his playing time was basically interchangeable with Joel's. (Whether Nate actually felt that way himself is impossible to say. I hope he was lying.)
Oden is now flat out dominating, and forcing his way into offensive sets. He's got a big grin every game, and he just seems like a different player.
Nate's "flip flop": Is Oden's success entirely (or even at all) due to McMillan's "plan"? Impossible to say. But if our coach was Phil Jackson, we'd all be nodding that his brilliant mind game succeeded. Instead we are pointing out how his plan "failed" because Nate was able to ditch it.

Three guard lineup --
Problem: Our perimeter defense in the early games was pretty porous. We'd lost 3 of our first 5 games. Nobody was happy. Something had to change.
Nate's solution: Nate inserts Miller into the starting lineup, and we immediately beat the Spurs, and win a total of 8 of the 10 following games.
Now I definitely would've preferred benching Blake instead of going with Miller and Webster at the time, but in hindsight I'll gladly take the results we got.
Nate's "flip flop": Now Webster has a nice game so we can feel a little better about starting him at SF. Blake has a rare decent game. Our bench looks pretty sad though, and Roy is tired of getting beat up at SF. Rather than play out the three guard lineup until it completely breaks down, we ditch it and hope that whatever was wrong with the original starting lineup has been cured.

Oden's one foul per quarter --
Problem: After a full season of picking up fouls at a ridiculous rate, Oden started this year without any sign of progress in that department. In the first 6 games he was averaging 5 fouls a game.
Nate's solution: Nate makes a new rule that immediately puts the spotlight square on this issue. Suddenly the only thing that matters to Oden is to not get that second early foul, because he's going to get the yank every time. Oden gives up on a play here and there when he's clearly beat. But because he's not in as much foul trouble, he's suddenly given the freedom to be much more aggressive on the offensive end.
Results: Over the past 7 games he's averaging 3.5 fouls a game.
Nate's "flip flop": Nate's policy pretty much cost us a win against Golden State. Nate almost certainly knows it. This probably seemed like a good a time as any to see if Oden's sudden attention to fouling can translate into bigger minutes. So Nate's ditching a rule that somewhat succeeded in reducing Oden's habit of fouling, but cost us a win in the process. I don't think the rule was ever intended to be anything more than a wakeup call for Oden, and it appears that he did indeed wake up.

I'm no Nate apologist. I'd personally prefer Blake to never see a start again (barring injuries to Rudy, Miller and Fernandez). I hated the way he sent Aldridge to the bench for early fouls. I can't begin to understand what Bayless has done to draw so much misuse by Nate.

That said, there often is some kind of method to the madness with some of his plans. And I wouldn't hold it against him for abandoning them when the solution no longer seems to fit.

I APPROVE OF THIS MESSAGE. REPPED!

 

[Natebishop3]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

In each of the instances you cited, there were significant problems with the way players were playing. It appears that McMillan used his few real powers (minutes played, bully pulpit) to impact those problems positively:

Oden not part of the offense --
Problem: Oden put too much pressure on himself last year. He was developing a really depressed attitude, and it was affecting his play at times.
Nate's solution: Through his statement McMillan was trying to make it seem that Oden's role was no different from Przybilla this year, and if he had more hiccups it was really no big deal, because his playing time was basically interchangeable with Joel's. (Whether Nate actually felt that way himself is impossible to say. I hope he was lying.)
Oden is now flat out dominating, and forcing his way into offensive sets. He's got a big grin every game, and he just seems like a different player.
Nate's "flip flop": Is Oden's success entirely (or even at all) due to McMillan's "plan"? Impossible to say. But if our coach was Phil Jackson, we'd all be nodding that his brilliant mind game succeeded. Instead we are pointing out how his plan "failed" because Nate was able to ditch it.

Three guard lineup --
Problem: Our perimeter defense in the early games was pretty porous. We'd lost 3 of our first 5 games. Nobody was happy. Something had to change.
Nate's solution: Nate inserts Miller into the starting lineup, and we immediately beat the Spurs, and win a total of 8 of the 10 following games.
Now I definitely would've preferred benching Blake instead of going with Miller and Webster at the time, but in hindsight I'll gladly take the results we got.
Nate's "flip flop": Now Webster has a nice game so we can feel a little better about starting him at SF. Blake has a rare decent game. Our bench looks pretty sad though, and Roy is tired of getting beat up at SF. Rather than play out the three guard lineup until it completely breaks down, we ditch it and hope that whatever was wrong with the original starting lineup has been cured.

Oden's one foul per quarter --
Problem: After a full season of picking up fouls at a ridiculous rate, Oden started this year without any sign of progress in that department. In the first 6 games he was averaging 5 fouls a game.
Nate's solution: Nate makes a new rule that immediately puts the spotlight square on this issue. Suddenly the only thing that matters to Oden is to not get that second early foul, because he's going to get the yank every time. Oden gives up on a play here and there when he's clearly beat. But because he's not in as much foul trouble, he's suddenly given the freedom to be much more aggressive on the offensive end.
Results: Over the past 7 games he's averaging 3.5 fouls a game.
Nate's "flip flop": Nate's policy pretty much cost us a win against Golden State. Nate almost certainly knows it. This probably seemed like a good a time as any to see if Oden's sudden attention to fouling can translate into bigger minutes. So Nate's ditching a rule that somewhat succeeded in reducing Oden's habit of fouling, but cost us a win in the process. I don't think the rule was ever intended to be anything more than a wakeup call for Oden, and it appears that he did indeed wake up.

I'm no Nate apologist. I'd personally prefer Blake to never see a start again (barring injuries to Rudy, Miller and Fernandez). I hated the way he sent Aldridge to the bench for early fouls. I can't begin to understand what Bayless has done to draw so much misuse by Nate.

That said, there often is some kind of method to the madness with some of his plans. And I wouldn't hold it against him for abandoning them when the solution no longer seems to fit.

The thing is, Nate went against his own rules against Golden State. Neither Oden or Aldridge were in foul trouble. Greg had zero fouls in the first quarter. He picked up two quick ones in the second, but that should have fallen within his "one foul per quarter" rule and he should have continued to play. Regarding Aldridge, I had no idea he was even playing under the same foul rules as Oden. Leaving both of our starting big men off the floor was moronic, and it bit him in the ass.

 

[mook]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

The thing is, Nate went against his own rules against Golden State. Neither Oden or Aldridge were in foul trouble. Greg had zero fouls in the first quarter. He picked up two quick ones in the second, but that should have fallen within his "one foul per quarter" rule and he should have continued to play. Regarding Aldridge, I had no idea he was even playing under the same foul rules as Oden. Leaving both of our starting big men off the floor was moronic, and it bit him in the ass.

Yeah, I'm not at all trying to defend the Golden State game. I have no clue what he was thinking in benching Aldridge. Even benching Oden was pretty questionable. *shrug*

All I can say is that sometimes when you obsess over fixing a recurring problem, you start seeing the problem where it doesn't even exist. That seems to be what happened here.

Hopefully as Nate unclenches with his foul-a-quarter rule, similar mistakes won't happen again.

 

[Boise Blazer]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

It seems to boil down to one thing for nate regarding Oden. At some point you have to push the bird out of the nest and stop "babying" them. Every other team in the league seems to understand that you are going to have some ups and downs with young players and it may cost some games in the beginning but in the long run you will benefit from those learned lessons.

 

[yakbladder]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

The thing is, Nate went against his own rules against Golden State. Greg had zero fouls in the first quarter. He picked up two quick ones in the second, but that should have fallen within his "one foul per quarter" rule and he should have continued to play.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. I think you are interpreting Nate's rule as if Greg gets to the second quarter he gets two fouls to commit, third quarter three, etc. I don't think it was ever specified whether they accumulate or whether it was really just one per quarter.

I think people need to get over their intense hatred of these things. Like andalusian mentioned, it lasted a grand total of eight games and as we've all seen, including Roy, it's actually helped Oden in his approach towards playing D and getting fouls which was the whole point. I think too many people place too much faith in the ability of players, especially young players, to just go out there freeballing without any goals or plans.

 

[BenDavis503]

Blazers Want Oden To Work Through Foul Trouble

Blazers Want Oden To Work Through Foul Trouble

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archi...azers_want_oden_to_work_through_foul_trouble/

"He's going to have to figure it out," McMillan said. "Both he and LaMarcus have been in foul trouble. I've been thinking about it, (and) they have to learn to play with two fouls and stay out of foul trouble. We need them on the floor."

I like this! I thought the 2 fouls in first half and you are out rule is freaking stupid. Nate really needs to go. You teach your players to control themselves with fouls, not to ride the pine once you get 2.

 

[RoyToy]

I'm sort of in shock that it even came to this. I....just can't believe it.

 

[Shooter]

Re: Rumors: A new plan for Greg Oden emerges...

lets hope so, the 2 foul rule was idiotic.

I have to agree. Makes me rethink my opinion of McMillan.