Running 15th man thread

[illmatic99]

I don't disagree. I get that it opens up opportunities for other players to step up...but it only creates a perception because of a coach's unwillingness to play an inexperienced player over an experienced player. All the players we have on the roster would still be on the roster had we not cut Crabbe. Ergo, we are worse because of the move.

Also, while Crabbe was not a very good player, he was one of our least bad players. We are now hoping that Pat or Jake can play as well or better than Crabbe in order for the cut to not be negative. If neither Pat nor Jake play as well as Crabbe did last season, then it made us worse. Neither Biggie nor Collins are taking Crabbes SG/SF position...and even if they were, they'd still be on the team regardless of whether we cut/kept Crabbe.

For better or worse, Crabbe was in the vicinity of our 5th best player last season - and we just cut that player without any return, and are hoping that last season's 10th-15th best player can replace our 5th best player.

As I've said, I'm not a fan of Crabbe and am glad to be out from under his contract. But there's no way we're better after cutting him. It was purely financial.View attachment 16593

Really hope ET can revert back to his BOS days

 

[blue9]

Really hope ET can revert back to his BOS days

In BOSTON!

 

[PtldPlatypus]

The fact is, this was purely a financial move and is not a case of addition by subtraction - we got worse. Period. Now, because I really do not care that we cut Crabbe, I'm going to do my best not to discuss it any longer.

Which parts of this are necessarily factual?

• "this was purely a financial move"--Sure, I think we can all agree that is factual.
• "and is not a case of addition by subtraction"--Debatable. If the team performed worse when he was on the floor than off, addition by subtraction is arguable. Not a fact.
• "we got worse. Period."--Definitely not a fact. Especially considering what we've seen from Turner this preseason, and how Connaughton seems to be faring in Crabbe's role, the claim that Crabbe's absence makes the team worse is pure speculation.

 

[blue9]

Which parts of this are necessarily factual?

• "this was purely a financial move"--Sure, I think we can all agree that is factual.
• "and is not a case of addition by subtraction"--Debatable. If the team performed worse when he was on the floor than off, addition by subtraction is arguable. Not a fact.
• "we got worse. Period."--Definitely not a fact. Especially considering what we've seen from Turner this preseason, and how Connaughton seems to be faring in Crabbe's role, the claim that Crabbe's absence makes the team worse is pure speculation.

Go back and look at the chart I posted earlier. We performed better with Crabbe than we performed with the guys (Pat/Jake) who are going to take his role. So, even if Crabbe was a minus, his replacement(s) are/were bigger minuses. Turner was always going to have major rotation minutes - it doesn't matter if he plays better this year, he would have played better even if Crabbe were still on the team.
We already had Turner/Pat. We didn't need to cut Crabbe in order to have them.
(I'm not doing a good job of extricating myself from this stupid discussion...)

 

[PtldPlatypus]

We already had Turner/Pat. We didn't need to cut Crabbe in order to have them.

True, but given his contract and position, Crabbe was going to play if he were here, and now he won't. I'm of the opinion that he made the team worse when he came in, and that Turner taking some of his minutes makes the team less-worse.

Also, it's fallacious to compare Pat's on-court stats from last year with Crabbe's since Pat never played with real NBA-caliber teammates. We don't have a valid sample of Pat playing in the 1st/2nd quarter with starters and 6th/7th men as Crabbe did. Thus, any conclusions drawn about Pat's ability to effectively replace Crabbe are speculative, not factual.

 

[blue9]

True, but given his contract and position, Crabbe was going to play if he were here, and now he won't. I'm of the opinion that he made the team worse when he came in, and that Turner taking some of his minutes makes the team less-worse.

Also, it's fallacious to compare Pat's on-court stats from last year with Crabbe's since Pat never played with real NBA-caliber teammates. We don't have a valid sample of Pat playing in the 1st/2nd quarter with starters and 6th/7th men as Crabbe did. Thus, any conclusions drawn about Pat's ability to effectively replace Crabbe are speculative, not factual.

That's probably true. But a good coach would look past the contract and play the better player. If Pat is a better player than Crabbe, and Tater Totts played Crabbe over Pat, then that's a whole 'nother issue.
It boils down to the fact that we had 10 tools to do the job, and now we have 9 tools. (Just using base-10 in my simplified explanation to illustrate what what we did in getting rid of Crabbe.) Crabbe was a specialty tool who would have made the job easier in certain scenarios.

 

[Blazer4ever]

The Nuggets waive Jameer Nelson to make room for Richard Jefferson

 

[illmatic99]

The Nuggets waive Jameer Nelson to make room for Richard Jefferson

WTF he's their best PG. He started for them last year.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

WTF he's their best PG. He started for them last year.

All in on Mudiay, apparently.

 

[illmatic99]

This effectively makes them worse. I'm happy about this.

 

[Boob-No-More]

All in on Mudiay, apparently.

They think Jamal Murray can play the PG position since they run their offense through Jokic anyway.

This (and the complete lack of rim protection) is why I think DEN is very overrated.

BNM

 

[PtldPlatypus]

They think Jamal Murray can play the PG position since they run their offense through Jokic anyway.

This (and the complete lack of rim protection) is why I think DEN is very overrated.

BNM

In addition to being their post offense, and their rebounding, Paul Millsap is their rim protection. And their perimeter defense. You know, he's one of only 3 players this decade to have over 130 blocks and 130 steals in the same season...

 

[Boob-No-More]

In addition to being their post offense, and their rebounding, Paul Millsap is their rim protection. And their perimeter defense. You know, he's one of only 3 players this decade to have over 130 blocks and 130 steals in the same season...

Yep, he had a monster year defensively two years ago. Last year, not so much. He set a career high in scoring, but also set career lows in several very important areas (TS%, TRB%, etc.). Millsap is almost 33 and based on advanced stats, seems to be declining rapidly.

DEN will still be paying him $30 million a year when he is 36. I've always been a Millsap fan, but even I think that contract, in both dollars and length, is insane.

BNM

 

[illmatic99]

If these guys were waived and their salaries were replacement level, would they even get picked up by other teams?

-Leonard
-Vonleh
-Pat
-Jake
-Napier

Is this true with other teams in the league? Are the guys in rotation from 10-15 always this interchangeable? Like I'd take Gerald Green/Derrick Williams/Jameer Nelson/ Morrow/etc etc over all these guys. If we hadn't invested so much $ and practice/development time into them, they'd be gone.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

If these guys were waived and their salaries were replacement level, would they even get picked up by other teams?

-Leonard
-Vonleh
-Pat
-Jake
-Napier

Is this true with other teams in the league? Are the guys in rotation from 10-15 always this interchangeable? Like I'd take Gerald Green/Derrick Williams/Jameer Nelson/ Morrow/etc etc over all these guys. If we hadn't invested so much $ and practice/development time into them, they'd be gone.

The fact that Pat's contract was non-guaranteed, but retained anyway, suggests that the FO thinks more highly of him.

 

[Scalma]

The fact that Pat's contract was non-guaranteed, but retained anyway, suggests that the FO thinks more highly of him.

His contract was guaranteed. The only decision they had to make was to either pick up his option or not. If they didn't, he would've been a FA.

 

[Pinwheel1]

His contract was guaranteed. The only decision they had to make was to either pick up his option or not. If they didn't, he would've been a FA.

And off our books for this year. I didn't think they were going to keep him. I agree with Platypus, they obviously saw and liked what he was doing in practice.

 

[Scalma]

And off our books for this year. I didn't think they were going to keep him. I agree with Platypus, they obviously saw and liked what he was doing in practice.

Or the trade with New York didn't happen and he's still on the roster.

How else can you explain delaying the decision a month? If they liked him there wouldn't have been doubt, especially considering how inexpensive he is.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Or the trade with New York didn't happen and he's still on the roster.

How else can you explain delaying the decision a month? If they liked him there wouldn't have been doubt, especially considering how inexpensive he is.

They left him non-guaranteed so that if he needed to be included in a trade, the receiving team would then have retained the option to waive him without consequence. They never planned on cutting him; only trading him if necessary.

 

[dviss1]

They think Jamal Murray can play the PG position since they run their offense through Jokic anyway.

This (and the complete lack of rim protection) is why I think DEN is very overrated.

BNM

That's who they will start. Murray and Harris in their back court. I'd try to move Muiday if I were their GM. I don't think he wants to come off the bench.

 

[Boob-No-More]

That's who they will start. Murray and Harris in their back court. I'd try to move Muiday if I were their GM. I don't think he wants to come off the bench.

That starting backcourt is a disaster on defense, especially with no rim protection behind them to help erase their mistakes. At this point, DEN should just give up all pretense of playing defense and bring back Paul Westhead as their coach.

BNM

 

[dviss1]

That starting backcourt is a disaster on defense, especially with no rim protection behind them to help erase their mistakes. At this point, DEN should just give up all pretense of playing defense and bring back Paul Westhead as their coach.

BNM

Good for us then. We'll see if he starts. It's not like Muiday is some world class defender anyway.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Good for us then. We'll see if he starts. It's not like Muiday is some world class defender anyway.

Yep, the Harris/Murray backcourt pretty much sums up DEN in a nutshell - all offense, no defense.

I know, I know, they added Paul Millsap and he was a great defender two seasons ago, but that was in a Spurs style defensive system surrounded by other excellent defenders. Millsap's defense really slipped last year. He is now almost 33 and doesn't have enough thumbs to plug all the holes in that leaky defense by himself.

BNM