Zombie Rush the Stimulus Package...don't read it, just pass it! (1 Viewer)

[maxiep]

The Healthcare industry is the last place that I want to get Government out of. It's a complete crime what's going on. When insurance would rather pay for your assisted suicide rather then drugs to ease your pain, I find something inherently wrong with them.

Clearly, you've never experienced socialized health care. They're pretty decent at preventative medicine, but you had better hope you never require intensive healthcare where a number of specialists are needed. And if someone wants to take their own life because the pain from their terminal disease is too great to bear, I think that's one of the freedoms Americans should enjoy.

Also, what went on with the deregulation of the oil futures was ridiculous, and with the housing market, loans, etc. You NEED to have big brother step in once in a while and get these god damned corporations to stop taking advantage of the American people, through their subterfuge, and fraud.

First, I don't hear much about the rapacious behavior of oil speculators now that the price of a barrel of oil is a third of what it was. Second, lots of individuals made money off of real estate in the past decade. Furthermore, many of those people should never have qualified for loans in the first place. Third, when all else fails, caveat emptor.

Now I'm not one for BIG Government, but I also don't like having this hands-off attitude that allows the richest corporates that are above the law to take advantage of everyone, effectively running this place into the ground.

The problem wasn't that the Government was hands-off, it was hands-on where it had no business being. The Congress forced banks to make loans to people who shouldn't have gotten them. The Government allowed FNMA and FHLMC get into businesses that had little to do with their charter. And when banks did overreach, the Government didn't let them fail--as the market would have had them do--they bailed them out. While on the surface it's a humane move, it interferes with the operation of the free market and leads to further problems.

The problem with Government is that there's a ratcheting effect with any new program--it can grow, but it never shrinks. It never disappears when the need goes away.

Lower taxes = yes.
Lower corporate tax rate? = yes, but only if they keep jobs in this country.[/QUOTE]

 

[44Thrilla]

The more I hear about this stimulus package, the more I don't like it.

 

[blue32]

Clearly, you've never experienced socialized health care. They're pretty decent at preventative medicine, but you had better hope you never require intensive healthcare where a number of specialists are needed. And if someone wants to take their own life because the pain from their terminal disease is too great to bear, I think that's one of the freedoms Americans should enjoy.

I have friends that live outside the US that experience socialized health care and let's just say they don't have near the problems we have.

And you missed my point above in that quote. The point was, the insurance company would not pay for medication for a person to ease the pain of their terminal condition for 4 months, but they would pay for suicide medication right away. They would have rather had the person die, then ease their pain for 4-6 months.

That's so unAmerican it's painful, and to advocate that type of business w/o regulation should be criminal.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5517492&page=1

 

[maxiep]

The more I hear about this stimulus package, the more I don't like it.

That's because it's not a stimulus package, it's a payoff to all the groups that helped the Democrats sweep into power. Meh, that's the way things go. I'm offended by it because many of the people voting for this bill have children and grandchildren. I would find it difficult to look at my son and tell him that I need something he's going to have to pay for.

 

[blue32]

First, I don't hear much about the rapacious behavior of oil speculators now that the price of a barrel of oil is a third of what it was.

That's because they (the government) found out who was taking advantage and to my knowledge dealt with it.

Not to mention, the speculators helped kill the economy so much that people stopped driving, stopped buying cars/trucks/suv's, stopped buying as much gas, etc.

Thanks to them, they contributed to the mess we are in.

Regulation needs to be put in place to never allow that fraud to happen again.

 

[44Thrilla]

That's because it's not a stimulus package, it's a payoff to all the groups that helped the Democrats sweep into power. Meh, that's the way things go. I'm offended by it because many of the people voting for this bill have children and grandchildren. I would find it difficult to look at my son and tell him that I need something he's going to have to pay for.

I hate to say it, but I agree with you, maxiep. There is a first time for everything.

 

[blue32]

I hate to say it, but I agree with you, maxiep. There is a first time for everything.

How do you know the stimulus package isn't going to fix our countries woes? And what about Bushes stimulus package? a farewell payoff to his buddies that got him in?

I mean, it's all politics, but if it gets us out of the recession, then I'm all for it.

 

[44Thrilla]

How do you know the stimulus package isn't going to fix our countries woes? And what about Bushes stimulus package? a farewell payoff to his buddies that got him in?

I mean, it's all politics, but if it gets us out of the recession, then I'm all for it.

I'm not against stimulus packages at all. I just don't like where such a significant portion of the money is going to end up, and that such a small portion will go to the people that I think Obama intends to help with it. Same goes for the Bush package.

 

[maxiep]

That's because they (the government) found out who was taking advantage and to my knowledge dealt with it.

So, you're saying the Evil Bush Administration (henceforth known as the EBA) beholden to Big Oil stepped in and stopped them from making money? That's an interesting and brave position to hold.

Not to mention, the speculators helped kill the economy so much that people stopped driving, stopped buying cars/trucks/suv's, stopped buying as much gas, etc.

And now the price is down to $1.65/gal. Ain't the free market great?

Thanks to them, they contributed to the mess we are in.

The American people have no one to blame but ourselves. We overleveraged ourselves and now we have to pay up.

Regulation needs to be put in place to never allow that fraud to happen again.

Again, what fraud? If you want to look for fraud, look at the loans Congress forced the banks to make. Those loans should never have been made. The increase in oil prices were clear for everyone to see. Increased demand from China and India, a terrorism risk premium, instability in the Middle East, etc. etc. Cheap gas isn't a Constitutional right.

 

[maxiep]

How do you know the stimulus package isn't going to fix our countries woes? And what about Bushes stimulus package? a farewell payoff to his buddies that got him in?

I mean, it's all politics, but if it gets us out of the recession, then I'm all for it.

What in this bill looks like an economic stimulus to you?

 

[blue32]

So, you're saying the Evil Bush Administration (henceforth known as the EBA) beholden to Big Oil stepped in and stopped them from making money? That's an interesting and brave position to hold.



And now the price is down to $1.65/gal. Ain't the free market great?



The American people have no one to blame but ourselves. We overleveraged ourselves and now we have to pay up.



Again, what fraud? If you want to look for fraud, look at the loans Congress forced the banks to make. Those loans should never have been made. The increase in oil prices were clear for everyone to see. Increased demand from China and India, a terrorism risk premium, instability in the Middle East, etc. etc. Cheap gas isn't a Constitutional right.

If you are telling me that you think it was okay for the oil speculators to do what they did, henceforth causing partial economic collapse of this country, then I can't continue to argue w/you; it's a lost cause, specially because you're thinking the supply and demand principles were in affect, when clearly it was market fraud jacking up the prices.

 

[blazerboy30]

Whatever gets this country out of the rut. That's what he's supposed to do. So spend money, what's the big deal? Has it ever been any different? Has the bickering from either side every stopped? Has the budget been balanced in the last 8 years?

Fuck me, just get this country back up on its feet and create jobs, create infrastructure, create anything that will help people make it.

Whenever I see quotes like this, I am always very curious as to which tax bracket they are coming from. It isn't surprising to see these silly comments when 10% of the population is going to have to pay for all of this spending in the future, while those directly receiving the payouts won't pay a dime of it.

 

[blue32]

What in this bill looks like an economic stimulus to you?

I think the majority of investments on the list above look like a great help; and I'm glad to see programs here in our country are getting boosts; it makes me happy to see our infrastructure getting money over the god damned desert "War on Terror". lol


I'm not the one arguing against it; you should be explaining with your vast proven knowledge of economics, what in that package isn't going to stimulate the economy.

 

[maxiep]

If you are telling me that you think it was okay for the oil speculators to do what they did, henceforth causing partial economic collapse of this country, then I can't continue to argue w/you; it's a lost cause, specially because you're thinking the supply and demand principles were in affect, when clearly it was market fraud jacking up the prices.

Markets go up and down. When prices go up, people consume less. When demand decreases and supply stays constant, prices go down. The market worked as it should.

Again, I'll ask where the "market fraud" was in terms of crude futures.

 

[blue32]

Whenever I see quotes like this, I am always very curious as to which tax bracket they are coming from. It isn't surprising to see these silly comments when 10% of the population is going to have to pay for all of this spending in the future, while those directly receiving the payouts won't pay a dime of it.

You make more, you get taxed more. Going back to Pre-George Bush tax cuts is fine by me.

I make roughly 70K a year. I'd say the same thing if I made 150, 200, 250. It's my principals and not my own self greed driving my posts.

 

[blue32]

Markets go up and down. When prices go up, people consume less. When demand decreases and supply stays constant, prices go down. The market worked as it should.

Again, I'll ask where the "market fraud" was in terms of crude futures.

Except companies were artificially inflating demand by fraud in the speculation market, capitalizing on 'shortage fears' and other such market affecting contributors, thus causing prices to rise when they really shouldn't have.

 

[maxiep]

Except companies were artificially inflating demand by fraud in the speculation market, capitalizing on 'shortage fears' and other such market affecting contributors, thus causing prices to rise when they really shouldn't have.

Speculators speculate. Risk premiums were inflated. The same happens in every commodity. So what? Are you now crying for those speculators who bought into those fears and have lost everything?

Again, you're taking China and India out of the calculation, when they were a huge driver in the price increase in crude. If you believe there was fraud, I'd like to see the basis for your conclusion.

 

[blazerboy30]

Speculators speculate. Risk premiums were inflated. The same happens in every commodity. So what? Are you now crying for those speculators who bought into those fears and have lost everything?

Again, you're taking China and India out of the calculation, when they were a huge driver in the price increase in crude. If you believe there was fraud, I'd like to see the basis for your conclusion.

Maxiep, you clearly don't understand. The market can only work correctly when the government regulates it, and dictates who can do what, and how much. The government knows better. I'm sure the government will step in to provide for those speculators that lost everything.

 

[blue32]

Speculators speculate. Risk premiums were inflated. The same happens in every commodity. So what? Are you now crying for those speculators who bought into those fears and have lost everything?

Again, you're taking China and India out of the calculation, when they were a huge driver in the price increase in crude. If you believe there was fraud, I'd like to see the basis for your conclusion.

Read this: http://peakoildebunked.blogspot.com/2008/07/366-futures-prices-determine-physical.html
There was market manipulation going on whether it was legal or not. Regardless of Supply and Demand.

 

[blue32]

Maxiep, you clearly don't understand. The market can only work correctly when the government regulates it, and dictates who can do what, and how much. The government knows better. I'm sure the government will step in to provide for those speculators that lost everything.

Come on, don't be such a drama-whore.

Your blowing up my position, in some passive aggressive way.

Look; certain things need to be regulated, and or fixed so that market manipulation and fraud can't exist.

That's my position. Same with the Health care.

Don't take my position to mean that Government must control everything, I just think that they need to do a better job at protecting it's citizens from greedy corporations, corporate fraud, market fraud and other such bullshit.

 

[blazerboy30]

Come on, don't be such a drama-whore.

Your blowing up my position, in some passive aggressive way.

Look; certain things need to be regulated, and or fixed so that market manipulation and fraud can't exist.

That's my position. Same with the Health care.

Don't take my position to mean that Government must control everything, I just think that they need to do a better job at protecting it's citizens from greedy corporations, corporate fraud, market fraud and other such bullshit.

You realize that greed is the driver of the market / capitalism, right? Are you saying you want the government to decide exactly how much greed is acceptable?

 

[blue32]

You realize that greed is the driver of the market / capitalism, right? Are you saying you want the government to decide exactly how much greed is acceptable?

Of course, but when that greed results in illegal actions; and causes country wide recession, something should be done right?

 

[blazerboy30]

Of course, but when that greed results in illegal actions; and causes country wide recession, something should be done right?

If something was done "illegally", they already broke the laws. You think more laws will reduce illegal activity?

 

[blazerboy30]

Interesting read from a Harvard economics professor...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123258618204604599.html

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

Obama trying to turn up the "pressure" to rush his spending program on his special projects not actually related to stimulating the economy and fixing the problems inherent in the system. This isn't at all unexpected coming from him. Disgusting.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090204/ap_on_bi_ge/congress_stimulus

President Barack Obama said Wednesday the recession will turn into "a catastrophe" if the economic stimulus is not passed quickly, lobbying anew for the plan as its price tag climbed above $900 billion and drew more criticism.

The president rejected several complaints about the plan, including arguments that tax cuts alone would solve the problem or that longer-term goals such as energy independence and health care reform should wait. Obama opposed such piecemeal approaches.

 

[PapaG]

Obama trying to turn up the "pressure" to rush his spending program on his special projects not actually related to stimulating the economy and fixing the problems inherent in the system. This isn't at all unexpected coming from him. Disgusting.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090204/ap_on_bi_ge/congress_stimulus

There is nothing stopping the Democrats from passing this legislation. They have the votes needed to put it on Obama's desk from their own party members. If it's such a sure-fire fix, why not pass it and take all of the credit for it?

 

[PapaG]

It's much worse than even I suspected. 500 million Americans are losing their job every day this bill isn't passed!

Pass it already!!!

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[BrianFromWA]

I didn't hear laughter on the tape...those are professional journalists. I giggled like a kid when I heard that.

 

[PapaG]

I didn't hear laughter on the tape...those are professional journalists. I giggled like a kid when I heard that.

I wonder if any of our lapdog, er watchdog media, immediately asked Pelosi why the Democrats in the Senate won't even bring the bill to a vote if "500 million Americans" are losing their jobs every day?

 

[maxiep]

She's so used to talking in trillions that millions seems like a rounding error.