Russia sends forces into Georgian rebel conflict

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I think JFK suggested that we'd fight any fight, bear any burden, yada yada, to make the world safe for Democracy. Sounds like it'd be HIS doctrine, no?

It's hard to debate with the Russians if they think the Chechnyans and Georgians are terrorists, or that it's OK for us to nation build but not the Russians.

My hope is that the Russians simply overrun Georgia in a few more days and the mass killing stops.
 
The origins of that come from the Truman Doctrine I believe. But it's not uncommon for other "Doctrines" to pick up stuff from their predescessors. the Monroe Doctrine has a lot of stuff from statements made by Adams and Jefferson. And if you look at it close enough, most of the Truman Doctrine actually comes from Jeffersonian ideas in dealing with the Barbers.

The Chechnyans are terrorist, and so are the Ossetias to some degree.

The problem a lot of people are worried about here, is the Russians have a past history of invading their neighbors. If they get Georgia with no resistances, what's to stop them from turning their attention to say Ukraine or Kazakstan?

I dont think this will be quick, I'm pretty sure there is some secret branch of the CIA funnelling weapons into Georgia like it did in Afghanistan in the 1980s. We'll arm them good enough so that they can put up a solid resistance. if it gets to hard, I think Russia will withdraw. Right now their primary concern is rebuilding their internal structures after the collapse of the Soviet Union. They do want to become a military superpower again, but getting bogged down in a stupid little war in the Caucuses isn't going to help them achieve their ultimate goal. If it gets to bloody they may go with international mediation, and try to force some concessions that way.
 
Your posts are a pleasure to read, FWIW.

Your point about Truman is well taken. Though I would say that a doctrine isn't a doctrine unless a president declares it to be so.

Judging from the news reports, the Russians are dominating the fight and it's looking like as quick a "mission accomplished" for the Russians as it was for us in Gulf War II (about 3 weeks, start to finish).

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=08...;show_article=1

US military surprised by speed, timing of Russia military action

The US military was surprised by the timing and swiftness of the Russian military's move into South Ossetia and is still trying to sort out what happened, a US defense official said Monday.

Russian forces surged into the breakaway region last week after weeks of clashes, threats and warnings between Tblisi and Moscow which culminated August 6 in a two-day Georgian offensive into South Ossetia.

That the two countries were on a collision course was no surprise to anyone, but the devastating Russian response was not expected, officials said.

"We were tracking it earlier in that week and we knew that things were escalating," said a military official, who asked not to be identified. "I can tell you it moved quicker than we anticipated that first day."

But how it unfolded is still unclear, clouded by conflicting claims from both sides.

"I think a lot of what you're asking needs to be ironed out," said the official.

"Some of these little issues are definitely still big questions in this event -- What was the intent? Who started it? Why did they start it? And why weren't they prepared to defend what they started?"

President George W. Bush, who urged Moscow to cease fire and return to pre-August 6 positions, charged in a televised statement that Russia's intention appeared to be depose Georgia's democratically elected president.

But the extent of the Russian operation remained unclear to US officials on Monday.

Georgian officials said Russian troops had moved out of South Ossetia into Georgia proper, occupying the city of Gori while Georgian troops were retreating to the capital.

But US defense officials said they were unable to corroborate the Georgian claims.

"We don't see anything that supports they are in Gori," said a defense official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "I don't know why the Georgians are saying that."

"That assessment is ongoing," said Bryan Whitman, a Pentagon spokesman.

The United States has among the most powerful tools for monitoring brewing conflicts, from spy satellites to reconnaissance aircraft and drones capable of scooping up radio signals or capture real-time images of forces on the ground.

But the extent to which they were trained on this remote conflict before it turned violent is not known.

The Russians, however, warned on August 3 of a growing threat of "large scale military conflict" between Georgia and South Ossetia.

The State Department issued a mild statement on August 5 urging Moscow to refrain from provocative actions, but gave no hint that it was aware that military action either by Georgia or Russia was in the offing.

Officials have suggested the fighting was not seen as an immediate threat, in part because there were only about 95 US troops and 35 civilian contractors in the country training Georgian troops for Iraq. And they were not near South Ossetia.

Some 1,650 US troops conducted a joint exercise with the Georgian military in mid-July. But they were out of the country when the hostilities flared.

At around the same time, the Russian military deployed 8,000 troops to the North Caucases for counter-terrorism exercises that Moscow said were unrelated to the tensions with its southern neighbor.

The US defense official said about 8,000 to 10,000 Russian troops have moved into South Ossetia. They also have flown SU-25, SU-24, SU-27 and TU-22 fighters and bombers during the campaign.

But the official said there was no obvious buildup of Russian forces along the border that signaled an intention to invade.

"Once it did happen they were able to get the forces quickly and it was just a matter of taking the roads in. So it's not as though they were building up forces on the border, waiting," the official said.

"What are their future intentions, I don't know. Obviously they could throw more troops at this if they wanted to," he said.
 
About Putin, he's not only a communist, he's a dictator basically, he runs every part of the country and has absolute control of everything inside the Russian Federation.


So what are your thoughts Joker? (being that you're Russian)
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticKing @ Aug 11 2008, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>About Putin, he's not only a communist, he's a dictator basically, he runs every part of the country and has absolute control of everything inside the Russian Federation.


So what are your thoughts Joker? (being that you're Russian)</div>

I did say that the Soviet Union will rise again. ftw!


My parents, however, have split opinions on this matter. My mother thinks that Russia isn't the "bad guy" here, while my father sees them as complete assholes. No surprise here, because my father completely hates Russia.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Joker @ Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticKing @ Aug 11 2008, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>About Putin, he's not only a communist, he's a dictator basically, he runs every part of the country and has absolute control of everything inside the Russian Federation.


So what are your thoughts Joker? (being that you're Russian)</div>

I did say that the Soviet Union will rise again. ftw!


My parents, however, have split opinions on this matter. My mother thinks that Russia isn't the "bad guy" here, while my father sees them as complete assholes. No surprise here, because my father completely hates Russia.
</div>

But he's Russian as well right?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticKing @ Aug 11 2008, 11:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Joker @ Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticKing @ Aug 11 2008, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>About Putin, he's not only a communist, he's a dictator basically, he runs every part of the country and has absolute control of everything inside the Russian Federation.


So what are your thoughts Joker? (being that you're Russian)</div>

I did say that the Soviet Union will rise again. ftw!


My parents, however, have split opinions on this matter. My mother thinks that Russia isn't the "bad guy" here, while my father sees them as complete assholes. No surprise here, because my father completely hates Russia.
</div>

But he's Russian as well right?
</div>

Yep.
 
I like your dad.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (soul driver @ Aug 11 2008, 07:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think China and Iran are bigger threats than Russia..I don't know if Russia will ever be able to be the power it once was.</div>


Russia has over 10,000 nuclear weapons.

China has over 300 IIRC.

Iran... nada.





It doesn't take much power to launch a nuclear weapon. Only the desire too. Not saying it will come to that (it won't).... but Russia remains the greater threat for now.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 11 2008, 10:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think JFK suggested that we'd fight any fight, bear any burden, yada yada, to make the world safe for Democracy. Sounds like it'd be HIS doctrine, no?

It's hard to debate with the Russians if they think the Chechnyans and Georgians are terrorists, or that it's OK for us to nation build but not the Russians.

My hope is that the Russians simply overrun Georgia in a few more days and the mass killing stops.</div>

We overran Iraq, ridded their hostile regime, and intend to turn it back over to the Iraqi people.

Russia.....is overrunning Georgia.... and.....?
 
Vintage, you make an interesting point.

If it weren't the USA using its military might to "help" peoples of the world, who would do it? Russia? China? What would the world be like if it were one of those countries?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 12 2008, 09:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If it weren't the USA using its military might to "help" peoples of the world, who would do it? Russia? China? What would the world be like if it were one of those countries?</div>

Neither China or Russia would.

If it wasn't for the US, I wouldn't be here now, and hundred of more thousands of people would have died in the Balkans. Russia was closer to the region but never intended to help the people that were suffering, instead they supported the aggressors.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real @ Aug 11 2008, 11:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And according to Time, Vladimir Putin was the 2007 Person of the Year.

What about now??!</div>

The same V. Putin that W thinks is a good man?

Serioualy, it should not matter what the EU, etc... think. Obviously, the voice of the South Ossetian people should take precedence.

The US should stay out. Iran/Israel has global implications and should be handled delicately.

Can you imagine J Mac pushing us to the brink everytime some regional conflict breaks out?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 12 2008, 08:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Vintage, you make an interesting point.

If it weren't the USA using its military might to "help" peoples of the world, who would do it? Russia? China? What would the world be like if it were one of those countries?</div>


China doesn't want that stage. They have more or less claimed that in the China White papers. Additionally, historically, they really haven't ever done much of it either. Its been somewhat of a struggle to get China engaged in the international community and take on more of a leadership role.

The U.S., obviously, has (been more engaged in international policing, if you will)...

Russia, admittedly, I am not sure of. I don't think they really are eager to be the "police force" of the world that the US has taken on (rightly or wrongly).



Of the three: which one is better suited to take on the role? Which one is most willing? And which one is more liberal?

Answer that.

Then answer which one you would want to take on the role (like it or not, someone has to take on that role).
 
Do the South Ossetians deserve independence? Do you think Georgia is wrong in trying to put down rebellion?

What are your thoughts on Abraham Lincoln's Presidency?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vintage @ Aug 12 2008, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Do the South Ossetians deserve independence? Do you think Georgia is wrong in trying to put down rebellion?

What are your thoughts on Abraham Lincoln's Presidency?</div>

Seems to me it's SO's responsibility to maintain their own independence. Last time we fought a war on those grounds was Vietnam.

Lincoln? He was obsessed with the "house divided" bit more than anything else. He'd have signed any bill or amendment to keep slavery if it meant avoiding the civil war. He didn't free the slaves until 1863, or well into the war.

It's an interesting question about whether a state should be allowed to secede. The constitution is entirely silent on the matter. I'd be inclined to allow it.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 12 2008, 11:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vintage @ Aug 12 2008, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Do the South Ossetians deserve independence? Do you think Georgia is wrong in trying to put down rebellion?

What are your thoughts on Abraham Lincoln's Presidency?</div>

Seems to me it's SO's responsibility to maintain their own independence. Last time we fought a war on those grounds was Vietnam.

</div>

I tend to agree. Though, I think... if crimes against humanity are in play (like, say.... genocide), it can become an international matter.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Lincoln? He was obsessed with the "house divided" bit more than anything else. He'd have signed any bill or amendment to keep slavery if it meant avoiding the civil war. He didn't free the slaves until 1863, or well into the war.

It's an interesting question about whether a state should be allowed to secede. The constitution is entirely silent on the matter. I'd be inclined to allow it.</div>

And that's where I was headed with this..



I am not sure where I stand on this issue.
 
Georgia has every right to put down the rebellion. It's their sovergn lands. Most the world sees Ossetia as Georgian territory. The Ossetians do have some autonomy, but in recent weeks they had stepped up the violence.

As for being the police force of the world, only the US can really do it. We're the only one with both the logistics to get it done and the man power to do. China and Russia have the man power, but not the logistics. the UK has the logistics but not the man power. But the problem is everytime the US tries to act as a policing agency the entire world gets pissed off(see Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Rwanda, Kosovo, Iraq) People want us to change the world to better it, but anytime we try we end up paying for it as those same people turn against us. During the Cold War, the US tried to keep the spread of Communsm under control and did a good job of it, but now all the uneducated idiots sit around and complain about attrocities committed by the US. I'm not saying we dont have our hands drenched in blood, but the things we call attrocities usually tend to be very mild. take the recent torture stuff at Gitmo and Abu Ghrib. By the classical definition there isn't a whole lot of torture going on there, and things like humiliating people isn't really torture. We in the west dont really understand war. It's been so long since we've seen it, and those who have seen it are a small minority. Since the end of WW2, the wars we have fought are miniscule. Vietnam was pretty bloody, but in 20 years 60,000 troops died. That's 3,000 a year or about 8 a day. In the context of warfare, 8 soldiers isn't much considering many armies would consider it a good day to only lose 40. In Iraq there has been 4,000 killed in 5 years. that's about 800 a year and around 2 a day. Not really a blood bath, considering just the union lost 600,000 troops(very conservative estimate) in really 3 years of fighting during the Civil war. that's 410 soldiers a day. In the Iran-Iraq war Iran lost 80,000 soldiers in a 8 year period. that's 10,000 a year and 27 a day.

I know I'm turning human lives into statistics, but it's a simple fact that the infintryman, no matter the era or civilization, is expendible and always has been and always will be.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 11 2008, 09:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>What is the Monroe Doctrine?</div>

It is the precursor to the Prime Directive.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (redneck @ Aug 12 2008, 09:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Georgia has every right to put down the rebellion. It's their sovergn lands. Most the world sees Ossetia as Georgian territory. The Ossetians do have some autonomy, but in recent weeks they had stepped up the violence.

As for being the police force of the world, only the US can really do it. We're the only one with both the logistics to get it done and the man power to do. China and Russia have the man power, but not the logistics. the UK has the logistics but not the man power. But the problem is everytime the US tries to act as a policing agency the entire world gets pissed off(see Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Rwanda, Kosovo, Iraq) People want us to change the world to better it, but anytime we try we end up paying for it as those same people turn against us. During the Cold War, the US tried to keep the spread of Communsm under control and did a good job of it, but now all the uneducated idiots sit around and complain about attrocities committed by the US. I'm not saying we dont have our hands drenched in blood, but the things we call attrocities usually tend to be very mild. take the recent torture stuff at Gitmo and Abu Ghrib. By the classical definition there isn't a whole lot of torture going on there, and things like humiliating people isn't really torture. We in the west dont really understand war. It's been so long since we've seen it, and those who have seen it are a small minority. Since the end of WW2, the wars we have fought are miniscule. Vietnam was pretty bloody, but in 20 years 60,000 troops died. That's 3,000 a year or about 8 a day. In the context of warfare, 8 soldiers isn't much considering many armies would consider it a good day to only lose 40. In Iraq there has been 4,000 killed in 5 years. that's about 800 a year and around 2 a day. Not really a blood bath, considering just the union lost 600,000 troops(very conservative estimate) in really 3 years of fighting during the Civil war. that's 410 soldiers a day. In the Iran-Iraq war Iran lost 80,000 soldiers in a 8 year period. that's 10,000 a year and 27 a day.

I know I'm turning human lives into statistics, but it's a simple fact that the infintryman, no matter the era or civilization, is expendible and always has been and always will be.</div>

I tend to take a similar view, though I quibble with your facts (sue me
). We lost 52,000 soldiers in vietnam in just a few years, not 20. Maybe if you count from the first advisors to the very end... But we had 500,000 troops over there in the LBJ years and most of the dying was done in a short period. The ~4K we've lost in Iraq is a puny figure compared to Vietnam or even punier compared to Korea (where 1M+ total died on both sides combined).

We dib't have a draft anymore. Our soldiers are "professional" in every sense of the word.

In a lot of previous wars, no prisoners were taken tho a few of the losers may have successfully ran away and lived. The spoils of war historically have been rape and pillage for the victor.

Our use and emphasis on pinpoint precision munitions is a very humane thing IF we're going to use military force anywhere. We were able to target Saddam's palaces and other strategic targets while minimizing collateral damage (killing of civilians, hitting their houses and businesses).

I really don't get the argument that if we don't abide by the Geneva Conventions, our enemies won't. Ask McCain - he was a POW and tortured for 5+ years.
 
Lost in this discussion is what Putin's ultimate aims are.

All along, he's diplomatically opposed things we consider making the world a better place. From preventing the proliferation of nukes (Iran) to defending nations against rogue missile attacks.

Either he's spanking Georgia for a few bad deeds (bad enough), or he's got much bigger plans.
 
August 12, 2008
Categories: McCain
McCain kicks off town hall with more pro-Georgia talk

Opening his appearance at a town hall in York, Pa., McCain said: “I know I speak for all Americans when I tell [President Mikheil Saakashvili] that today, we are all Georgians.”

(Via Halperin)

By Jonathan Martin (Politico) 12:48 PM
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 12 2008, 12:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Lost in this discussion is what Putin's ultimate aims are.

All along, he's diplomatically opposed things we consider making the world a better place. From preventing the proliferation of nukes (Iran) to defending nations against rogue missile attacks.

Either he's spanking Georgia for a few bad deeds (bad enough), or he's got much bigger plans.</div>


Not true..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Russia, admittedly, I am not sure of. I don't think they really are eager to be the "police force" of the world that the US has taken on (rightly or wrongly).</div>



I think Putin is attempting to "rollback" the NATO curtain somewhat. Georgia wanted enterance into NATO.... Russia saw it as a threat... He isn't happy the Soviet bloc is turning to the west more and more so as opposed to staying under the Soviet influence.

And away we go.
 
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNew...=22&sp=true

U.S. and Poland sign missile shield deal
Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:10pm EDT

By Gabriela Baczynska

WARSAW (Reuters) - Poland finally agreed on Thursday to host elements of U.S. global anti-missile system on its territory after Washington improved the terms of the deal amid the Georgia crisis.

The preliminary deal was signed by deputy Polish Foreign Minister Andrzej Kremer and U.S. chief negotiator John Rood. It still needs to be endorsed by the Polish parliament.

The signing comes after Prime Minister Donald Tusk had been holding out for enhanced military cooperation with the United States in return for consent to host 10 interceptor rockets at a base in northern Poland.

Washington says the interceptors and a radar in the Czech Republic would form part of a global "missile shield" protecting the United States and its allies from long range missiles that could in the future be fired by Iran or groups such as al-Qaeda.

"We have crossed the Rubicon," Tusk said just before the deal was signed.

"We have finally got understanding of our point of view that Poland, being a crucial partner in NATO and an important friend and ally of the United States, must also be safe."

Officials said the deal included a U.S. declaration that it will aid Poland militarily in case of a threat from a third country and that it would establish a permanent U.S. base on Polish soil in a symbolic gesture underlining the alliance.

"We are comfortable that we negotiated a strong agreement," Rood said. "It elevates our security relationship to a new level."

RUSSIA VEHEMENTLY OPPOSED

If everything goes to schedule, the interceptor base would be ready by around 2012, officials have said. The Czechs have already signed an agreement to host the radar although parliament there must yet ratify it.

Russia has vehemently opposed placing the shield installations in central Europe, saying they would threaten its security and upset the post-Cold War balance of power in Europe.

Moscow has threatened to take retaliatory steps against Poland and the Czech Republic, its former reluctant vassals who are now part of the European Union and NATO.

In the face of Russian opposition, Tusk had argued he could not agree to the shield unless the United States agreed to boost Warsaw's air defenses and enhance mutual military cooperation.

Russia's military action against Georgia strengthened the argument, Tusk said on Tuesday, ahead of the talks this week.

Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski played down the impact of the events in Georgia on the deal, apparently hoping to soften any criticism from Moscow.

In the first sign of Moscow's displeasure, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on Thursday cancelled a planned trip to Warsaw in September, Polish diplomats said.

The deal, if approved by parliaments in Prague and Warsaw, will be a rare success for President George W. Bush who has argued it is essential to contain the threat of a potentially nuclear-armed Iran.

Washington hopes the shield might persuade Iran to abandon its nuclear program, although Teheran says it wants to develop nuclear energy only to generate electricity and not to make nuclear weapons.
 
^^^ "rare success for Bush" ?

Just report the damned news, buttholes.

It seems like a remarkable success for the Bush administration.
 
John McCain has been saying that Russia's goal all along was not to defend its' SO, but to cause a regime change.

Maybe this is cliche but I think that sounds very plausible, in fact it even squares with Denny's assertion of a Monroe Doctrine for Russia: they have an excuse to respond, and when they had the opportunity, they pushed it into overdrive.
 
This boils down to something real simple for me. There's not a whole lot, besides jawboning them, that can be done. I don't see any rationale to the sphere of influence argument, and I do see logic in keeping Georgia and it's vital pipelines independent.

But this isn't something our military options can accomplish, so reminding the Russians of stuff like the fact we can put ABMs in Poland is about our best bet.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Aug 14 2008, 07:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This boils down to something real simple for me. There's not a whole lot, besides jawboning them, that can be done. I don't see any rationale to the sphere of influence argument, and I do see logic in keeping Georgia and it's vital pipelines independent.

But this isn't something our military options can accomplish, so reminding the Russians of stuff like the fact we can put ABMs in Poland is about our best bet.</div>

The next move would be to bring Ukraine into Nato. Would piss the hell out of Russia, and if Russia did attack, all Nato allies would go to war.

This move with Poland is along those lines, just a little less brinksmanship.
 
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