Sabonis dominating the US, aged 18

[C_note]

That's not the question I asked... What's the deal with the supposed age restriction (less than 21) at the time? There was no age limit before or after that time period, and I haven't seen any references to one during that period. That's a pretty important piece to the puzzle, don't you think?

I think it's pretty safe to say that, considering the pick was voided, there was some type of age restriction in place.......why are you questioning it.

 

[maxiep]

Is that when he dominated David Robinson? Sabonis was amazing when he was younger. Damn good when he was on the Blazers but just a shell of the player he was in his prime.

No, that was the Olympics.

 

[maxiep]

seriously what could have been if he were here in his prime

:

Replace Duck with a healthy Sabas, and you have a dynasty. Shit, Duck coming off the bench? Insane.

 

[maxiep]

There were a couple of issues with Sabas not coming over until he was past his prime. First, was his lack of rehab with his legs. One injury caused another by overcompensating caused another by overcompensating, etc., etc. With NBA rehab, he would have kept some of that athleticism.

Second, was the European style. They played once a week. Conditioning and weight training wasn't really part of the ACB game. At Valladolid and Real Madrid, he was just so much better than anyone else he faced. He just enjoyed his life. He brought those habits here. Give Sabas 3-5 years of a serious weight training program and get him used to the NBA lifestyle instead of the ACB lifestyle and you have a different player.

I'm so happy we actually got to see him in the Scarlet & Black. When I lived in Spain I used to see him play and tell my Spanish friends that one day he'd come play for MY team. I hope the Blazers bring Sabas back for a HOF night to honor him.

 

[handiman]

I think it's pretty safe to say that, considering the pick was voided, there was some type of age restriction in place.......why are you questioning it.

Why wouldn't you (I) question something that doesn't fit any of the known facts? Unless someone can point to there having been an age restriction at the time, it seems fairly likely that the common explanation is erroneous.

 

[Boob-No-More]

#4 is Scott Skiles. Hard to recognize him with hair.

Ed O.

Not for me. I'd recognize him anywhere. I played against Skiles in HS. He was a freshman when I was a senior. Cocky little shit, but quite the baller. His performance during the 1982 Indiana State High School tournament is the stuff of legends. Like Hoosiers II, the sequel. That was back in the day when all schools in the state played in a single tournament. Led by Skiles, Plymouth defeated two much bigger (in both height and enrollment) teams to win the state championship - the smallest school to do so since the Milan Miracle in 1954.

Skiles scored a combined 69 points in the semi-final and final games. Both games were played on the same day (fuck back-to-backs, back then it was very common to play two games in a single day, three games in two days was common and four games in two days not all that unusual during the state tournament). Skiles scored 30 points in the morning semi-final game and then 39 points in the double overtime championship game. I remember watching it on TV. Skiles hit a 22-footer to send the game into the first overtime and then led his team to the double overtime win.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

No, that was the Olympics.

Yep, 1988 Olympics in Seoul. Sabonis lead the Soviets to the gold medal over David Robinson and the US squad - and that was after Sabonis had ruptured both achilles tendons.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Why wouldn't you (I) question something that doesn't fit any of the known facts? Unless someone can point to there having been an age restriction at the time, it seems fairly likely that the common explanation is erroneous.

Jesus, still arguing this same non-issue? I remember at the time the pick being voided due to Sabonis being underage, but I doubt that is very convincing. Would a quote directly from the official web site of the NBA sway you, or will you still insist you are right and the entire rest of the world is wrong?

Here's a direct quote from Arvyds Sabonis' player file on nba.com

"Selected by the Atlanta Hawks in the fourth round (77th pick overall) of the 1985 NBA Draft; the pick was later disallowed by NBA officials, who found Sabonis to be too young to be eligible for the draft."

Good enough, or do you still insist that "the common explanation is erroneous"?

BNM

 

[jlprk]

Handiman has an EXCELLENT question, except that he's too spacey to word it right. His real question is,

Okay, okay, so the OFFICIAL excuse for disallowing Sabonis in the 1985 draft was that he was under 21 on Draft Day. I'm asking, how does that make SENSE, not, whether it is the OFFICIAL excuse. It is INCONSISTENT with history. Why has that supposed rule not been enforced on other draftees?
----------------
Limitations of Basketball-Reference: 1) It will only find it by age on Feb. 1 of their rookie seasons. (Sabonis was 21 by then.) 2) It will only find this for those who played, not those who were drafted, so the list is really longer.

Limitation I added: Only search up to the watershed year of 1995. (That's when Kevin Garnett started the modern influx of high schoolers drafted directly into the NBA.)

Preliminary result: 142 players played (not just, were drafted) at age 21 or younger, before 1995.

sorted by season
http://bkref.com/tiny/ootI9

sorted by age
http://bkref.com/tiny/m1INe

Method: Then you check each player individually to find who was under 21 on Draft Day.

I only checked Sabonis's own 1985 draft. (I leave all other years to You the Reader as homework.) Benoit Benjamin was 1 month older than him, Kenny Green 2 months older, and Pete Williams 3 months younger. All were drafted in 1985 when younger than 21, and played in 1985-86.

Conclusion: The official excuse is a lie.

If there was a higher age for foreign players than American college players, then the official excuse should include that information instead of simply saying, "Sabonis was disallowed because he was under 21." Besides, the age requirement for foreign pros usually goes the other way with a lower, not higher, age.

Does a list of official 1985 draft rules exist, including this age rule? Or does the media just report later that there was a mystery rule, to justify what Stern already did?

 

[Denny Crane]

There absolutely was an age limit in those days. The ABA was able to sign a lot of star players as hardship draft picks. The NBA had a rule against drafting undergraduates, except in hardship cases.

Spencer Haywood sued the NBA because he wasn't allowed to play for the Sonic and won a 7-2 supreme court case against the league in the early 1970s. He was the first hardship case.

The qualifications for hardship were pretty severe. A player had to prove real financial hardship, they couldn't just sign up for the draft if they just wanted to go to the NBA early.

From the 1970s through the mid-1990s, I can only think of 2 guys who went from HS to the NBA - Bill Willoughby and Darryl Dawkins. Both never lived fully up to their expectations.

Like I said, the ABA was a different story. I can remember guys like George McGinnis and Moses Malone who were ineligible for the NBA and who ended up as stars in the ABA.

The number of HSers who ever jumped to the NBA is still a small number, but the list of names is impressive: Kobe, TMac, Dwight Howard, Amare. There are a few names less impressive: Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler.

 

[BrianFromWA]

The "less impressive" HS names are the ones like Korleone Young, Ouismane Cisse, Leon Smith, Ricky Sanchez, Ndudi Ebi. Curry and Chandler at least got some NBA run and a second contract.

Edit: And that's not including guys who weren't drafted, like Taj McDavid, Ellis Richardson, Tony Key (from Compton, FAMS), Jackie Butler

 

[Boob-No-More]

There absolutely was an age limit in those days. The ABA was able to sign a lot of star players as hardship draft picks. The NBA had a rule against drafting undergraduates, except in hardship cases.

It wasn't technically an age limit - for US players. The rule was your college class had to have graduated for you to be eligible for the NBA draft. This rule was agreed upon by both the NBA and NCAA. At the time, both saw benefits in this arrangement. The NCAA got the best young players for four years (in most all cases), and the NBA used college ball as a minor league for developing young talent before turning pro and drawing a paycheck.

This rule is the reason Wilt Chamberlain played for the Harlem Globetrotters for a year between college and the NBA. As you say, the rule was later amended to permit "hardship" cases. Each case was reviewed on an individual basis. I seem to recall Dr. J's photo on the cover of Sports Illustrated when he applied for hardship entry into the NBA draft after his junior season of college. I don't recall if he was granted hardship status, or not. I tend to think not as he wasn't drafted by an NBA team (the Milwaukee Bucks) until after his college class had graduated. By then, he'd already been playing professionally for with the Virginia Squires of the ABA.

For international players, the age limit was hard and fast and set at 21-years old on the day of the draft. The NBA didn't care whether, or not, international players played college ball. Back in those days, the number of international players talented enough to play in the NBA was very small. And, those players all played on their national teams, where they learned the game and developed. Like a US player with four years of college, a 21-year old international player with several years of international play on his national team was much lower risk than an unproven 18-year old. Both of these rules were enacted to reduce the risk to the owners that they would spend big bucks on an unproven kid that wouldn't pan out. Basically, to protect the owners from themselves.

BNM

 

[handiman]

Jesus, still arguing this same non-issue?

Jesus, overreact much? C_note bumped an old thread and responded to my question that was never answered. How horrific of me to reiterate the question.

For international players, the age limit was hard and fast and set at 21-years old on the day of the draft.

Finally, something tangible to work with. So, there were different rules for domestic and international players, as well as a non-age based limit for domestics. Thanks.

I'm confused, though... How were Bird and Magic drafted early? And Jordan left after his Junior year, didn't he? I'm sure there were lots more, but those examples come to mind immediately from the pre-Sabonis era being discussed. [edit: Unstated point being, it doesn't seem like the hardship rule was hard to come by.]

 

[Boob-No-More]

I'm confused, though... How were Bird and Magic drafted early? And Jordan left after his Junior year, didn't he? I'm sure there were lots more, but those examples come to mind immediately from the pre-Sabonis era being discussed. [edit: Unstated point being, it doesn't seem like the hardship rule was hard to come by.]

The "hardship" standard was gradually reduced and eventually elminated. At first, it was VERY difficult to be granted a hardship exception. I'd need to do some more research to be sure (this is just from memory), but in Julius Erving's case back in 1971 his mother had been sick and her medical expenses were the basis for his hardship case. I don't rememember if his hardhip case was approved or denied by the NBA, but he wasn't actually drafted by the Bucks until after his senior class graduated in 1972 (after already playing one season in the ABA).

Side note: imagine the potential dynasty in Milwaukee with the young Lew Alcindor, Dr. J., late career Oscar Robertson, Bobby Dandridge, etc. I wonder if Lew/Kareem would have stuck around longer if he'd had Dr. J. for a teammate.

In Bird's case, he was drafted as a "junior elegible". Bird briefly attended IU on a basketball scholarship, but dropped out well before basketball season even started. He sat out a year working on a garbage truck for the French Lick street department before enrolling at Indiana State. So, the rest of Bird's class graduated after his junior year of eligibility at Indiana State. Even though he hadn't personally graduated his class had - which meant he met the NBA standard to be draft eligible. The ever cunning Red Aurebach realized this and took him with the 6th pick in the 1978 draft as a "junior eligible" - someone whose class had graduated that still lhad a year of NCAA eligibilty remaining. Bird could have joined the Celtics in 1978, but elected to remain at Indiana State for his senior year and then sign with the Celtics, who still held his rights, prior to the 1979 draft.

Magic Johnson was a hardship case. Jordan didn't get drafted until 1984, by then, the hardship provision was much more loosely enforced and would soon be elminatated altogether. However, the age limit on international players was still in place and actively enforced. There just weren't a lot of young international players highly sought after by NBA teams back then.

BNM

 

[handiman]

Interesting. I knew Bird had dropped out of Indiana, but I'd never heard that his Junior status was eligibility not grade.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Interesting. I knew Bird had dropped out of Indiana, but I'd never heard that his Junior status was eligibility not grade.

I was a senior in HS in Indiana when Bird was a senior at Indiana State. I almost went to Indiana State because of him. I'm glad I didn't. He put Indiana State on the map - and it fell right back off the map after he left.

BNM

 

[jlprk]

I looked at Sabas' 1985 draft, plus or minus 5 years. That is, 11 drafts, 1980-90. There were many more underage players in drafts before and after those years.

draft day...age 20 on draft day

6/10/80 Mike Gminski, Wes Matthews
6/09/81 Isiah Thomas
6/29/82 Clark Kellogg, Eddie Phillips, Derek Smith
6/28/83 Ennis Whatley
6/19/84
6/18/85 Benoit Benjamin, Kenny Green, Pete Williams
6/17/86 Brad Daugherty, Cedric Henderson, John Williams (19)
6/22/87 Derrick McKey
6/28/88 Rex Chapman, Derrick Chievous, Sylvester Gray
6/27/89 Jay Edwards, Shawn Kemp (age 19)
6/27/90 Cedric Ceballos, Jerrod Mustaf

I clicked on each player in this list to check birthdate.
http://bkref.com/tiny/AOW1m

source for draft dates
http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/Dates.php

The real list would be longer because it would include all underage DRAFTED. Basketball-Reference gives only those who were underage when they PLAYED. Many under 21 were drafted but didn't make the team. Many underage were drafted late (only Pete Williams, 4th round, made his team). This list is only the ones who were drafted underage AND who also made the team. So the real list is longer than this.

 

[jlprk]

If you have any evidence to the contrary, bring it. I'd be interested.

I think it's pretty safe to say that, considering the pick was voided, there was some type of age restriction in place.......why are you questioning it.

See post before this one.

Why wouldn't you question something that doesn't fit any of the known facts?

Correct. As for rules differing for foreigners, I anticipated that and answered:

If there was a higher age for foreign players than American college players, then the official excuse should include that information instead of simply saying, "Sabonis was disallowed because he was under 21." Besides, the age requirement for foreign pros usually goes the other way with a lower, not higher, age.

Does a list of official 1985 draft rules exist, including this age rule? Or does the media just report later that there was a mystery rule, to justify what Stern already did?

 

[handiman]

If there was a higher age for foreign players than American college players, then the official excuse should include that information instead of simply saying, "Sabonis was disallowed because he was under 21." Besides, the age requirement for foreign pros usually goes the other way with a lower, not higher, age.

Does a list of official 1985 draft rules exist, including this age rule? Or does the media just report later that there was a mystery rule, to justify what Stern already did?

I missed that previous reply of your's. I agree, including that info would make the commonly seen explanation hold a lot more water. The problem is, most people just regurgitate what they've seen elsewhere -- example being every journalist under the sun repeating that Shawn Kemp went pro straight out of HS. Sometimes, it takes annoying a few people like with this thread to get a satisfying answer from someone that knows what they're talking about.

 

[Denny Crane]

This may clear things up a bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvydas_Sabonis

Sabonis was selected by the Atlanta Hawks with the 77th pick of the 1985 NBA Draft. However, the selection was voided because Sabonis was under 21 at the time of the draft. The following spring, he suffered a devastating Achilles' tendon injury. Nevertheless, he was selected by the Portland Trail Blazers with the 24th pick of the 1986 NBA Draft.[4]

Sabonis was not allowed to play in the NBA by Soviet authorities until 1989. However, he did go to Portland to rehabilitate his injury with Blazers trainers. He also practiced with the team.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

This may clear things up a bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvydas_Sabonis

Sabonis was selected by the Atlanta Hawks with the 77th pick of the 1985 NBA Draft. However, the selection was voided because Sabonis was under 21 at the time of the draft. The following spring, he suffered a devastating Achilles' tendon injury. Nevertheless, he was selected by the Portland Trail Blazers with the 24th pick of the 1986 NBA Draft.[4]

Sabonis was not allowed to play in the NBA by Soviet authorities until 1989. However, he did go to Portland to rehabilitate his injury with Blazers trainers. He also practiced with the team.

We've already been over this; handiman doesn't trust the internet.

 

[jlprk]

We've already been over this; handiman doesn't trust the internet.

I just disproved the many internet citations in this thread claiming that there was a general NBA rule against drafting players under age 21, and you still hold to your position that the internet should trump reality? Have you read the thread? (If you re-read it, skip the distractions of Denny talking about Spencer Haywood 15 years before 1985, and Boob talking about the 1950s. I can see how you forgot the point, that some general age rule was not in effect.)

 

[jlprk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvydas_Sabonis

Sabonis was not allowed to play in the NBA by Soviet authorities until 1989.

Wow. Your quoting that is dumb on 3 levels.

1) Here we go again. Finding a source which contradicts our memories, so we know it's not true. I eagerly looked at that paragraph in the Wikipedia article, to find its cited reference and go to that, because I know it's not the whole story. Sure enough, that paragraph has no reference citation. It is simply the opinion of some anonymous Wikipedia author, who probably was about 10 in 1989.

2) This is the same Wikipedia article which has no credibility because of the statement I just showed to be false or at best incomplete. "Sabonis was selected by the Atlanta Hawks with the 77th pick of the 1985 NBA Draft. However, the selection was voided because Sabonis was under 21 at the time of the draft." I just finished disproving that and blindly, you continue to use your crappy article.

3) Your claim that Soviet immigration policy did not allow him to work here till 1989 would have prevented his being drafted in 1986 just as much as it supposedly did in 1985. If he wasn't allowed to work here till 1989, why was it okay to draft him in 1986, but not 1985? Try thinking, Denny. Obviously, that wasn't the reason for disallowing him in 1985.

A month before we drafted him, he ruptured his right Achilles tendon. Later he fell down a flight of stairs. He came to Portland in 1988 to find whether Blazer rehabilitation methods had anything to offer, and it appeared he might join the team. Doubting his health and lured by rich European offers, he surprised the Blazers and returned to the Soviet Union. He then won the 1988 Olympic gold medal, beating the U.S. He signed with a Spanish team and later ruptured the same Achilles and broke his right foot bone.

The truth is that both countries were touchy about his working in the U.S. American immigration put up obstacles to his working in this country, the same as they always had with immigrants from Communist countries who might spread information contradicting the controlled U.S. media over whether they were miserable slaves lined up to be executed. The issue is now smothered in propaganda. If the famous Sabonis had really wanted to play here earlier, his government couldn't have stopped him, but our government could have. After the great Bob Whitsitt was hired in 1994, he immediately got him over here. You guys used uncited internet articles, so I'll find one. This says it was Sabonis, not the Soviet government, who resisted his playing in the NBA.

The 7-foot-3 Lithuanian, the player of the year in Europe this season, was drafted by the Blazers nine years ago, but he has repeatedly resisted the franchise's overtures. Sabonis' contract with Real Madrid expires soon and the Blazers have contacted his agents. While some have questioned whether Sabonis has the motivation to compete in the NBA, Whitsitt is enthusiastic about his ability, despite a lack of mobility caused by a series of hamstring and foot injuries. The Blazers brought Sabonis to Portland for the summer in 1988 to treat a torn Achilles tendon. U.S. Olympic coach John Thompson accused the Blazers of helping Sabonis get back in shape so he could help the Soviet Union win the gold medal in Seoul.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/419711/BRIEFS--BASKETBALL.html

 

[handiman]

We've already been over this; handiman doesn't trust the internet.

Nah, I merely distrust anything/anyone that doesn't seem trustworthy. That applies to most things that are explained in poor fashion.