Scherzer rejects offer

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totus44 said:
The player gets to choose...take a deal or wait for FA. Greed would be something much uglier, additional outrageous contract terms above and beyond the norm. But in this instance, precedent shows that players waiting until FA generally command much better terms for their services.

Its only greed in your eyes because you think that the number is high and that you would settle for the deal. Its only greed to those that sell themselves short. But if you want to call it greed, have at it. Then I adopt Gordon Gecko's mantra, greed is good.
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...it's "greed" because he's turning his back on a reported $150 Mil, and assuming he'll get more.
 
yankeesince59 said:
...spin it however you want...it's still greed. $150 Mil is not "low balling" either...and "a calculated business decision"?...really?...and I suppose Cano wasn't greedy?
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No, Robbie wasn't greedy. He got the best deal he could. I think he traded cash in hand for additional potential revenues that come with playing in NY and winning championships, but we knew Robbie was generally lazy and those things require work. He's never been that kind of businessman/player.
 
Mattingly23NY said:
Yep, I'm going with Merriam Webster on this one......Greed:: a selfish desire to have more of something (especially money).
Not my words, Webster's.

It will always amaze me how, ball players make such filthy money...when some of the most technological of minds, who work to advance societies, or Engineer and perfect Space Flight, or the Scientist in the Lab making headway's into the unknown, advancing all mankind, never see a fraction of the money a ball player makes.

Or as Willie Mays said: "I can't believe they pay me to play baseball, the thing I love to do the most".
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Hey Rob, did anyone ever tell you that you stutter?
 
totus44 said:
Dude...I wasn't calling you out. Just referencing our previous discussions about Cliff Lee, lol! When I want to call you out....it will be much more obvious. ;)
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...didn't mean you were calling me out, though it may have appeared that way...I was only reinforcing my original statement about Scherzer turning down a fat contract with hopes of getting even more.
...would I like to have Scherzer in pinstripes?...hell yeah. But if he turned down a 5-6 year extension it means he wants more, which would make him at least 37 at the end of the contract...and I think we should have learned by now about those kinds of contracts.
 
totus44 said:
No, Robbie wasn't greedy. He got the best deal he could. I think he traded cash in hand for additional potential revenues that come with playing in NY and winning championships, but we knew Robbie was generally lazy and those things require work. He's never been that kind of businessman/player.
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...God I hate negotiating with people who see the glass as half full. :lol:
 
totus44 said:
God I love negotiating with people that see the glass as half empty.
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I mean you do something great for ONE year in ANY field & your boss offers to DOUBLE your salary. & you say no, triple it NO! Quadruple it NO! at what point does the term GREED come in?

So I'll ask again Totus, "What is your definition of greed?" I'll wait.
 
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totus44 said:
God I love negotiating with people that see the glass as half empty.
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I love the half empty, half full cup debacle.....if a cup is half full, then it is also half empty....however-it is both, yet neither either.

one must remember grasshopper,- "one cannot fill one's cup until they empty it first" (Master HoleintheLip)
 
Mattingly23NY said:
I love the half empty, half full cup debacle.....if a cup is half full, then it is also half empty....however-it is both, yet neither either.

one must remember grasshopper,- "one cannot fill one's cup until they empty it first" (Master HoleintheLip)
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Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.
The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"
"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Truth, unless you first empty your cup?"
 
Greed connotates that it is driven by purely selfish desire for wealth or possessions (if were going with Dictionary definitions). How have any of you been able to prove that his motives for rejecting the deal were driven by greed? You HAVEN'T, and you CAN'T...unless he publicly states his motives. Who the fuck are any of you to say what another man thinks his own value is? It's fine to agree or disagree with his decision, but to characterize it as greedy makes a lot of false assumptions.

And you can't equate scientists and engineers and doctors and teachers to athletes/performers/entertainers. However, I do know more than a few scientists and engineers that took significant risks and reaped multi-10's of millions of dollars, and for doing little more than their peers. But they took the risk.

Schurzer now has a baseline value AND he knows what to the market trends have been for other pitchers. Taking a risk to maximize your return isn't greed. Sorry. You cannot equate this decision to anything contextual to your own lives or experiences. Biggest mistake people make....making it personal. You have to stick to the facts and the data. Facts and data point at a low ball offer from Detroit, because that is what is in their best interest to do at this phase of the negotiation. Why leave money on the table if you don't have too? But Max also said that if a deal wasn't done by the end of ST, he'd wait until after the season. You have no idea what he and his agent were asking for. Obviously it was larger than the offer we see now.

Like I said before, people that get hung up on the dollars and cents of baseball, that's their baggage. This is big business. You have to look at these deals in the context of how you would look at M&A activities of the companies in your stock portfolio, or the deals going on in your own industry. These aren't personal transactions. Max Schurzer did the right thing for Max Schurzer, Inc. Just like Robbie Cano did the right for for Robbie Cano, Inc. Corporations are accountable to their shareholders alone.
 
totus44 said:
And you can't equate scientists and engineers and doctors and teachers to athletes/performers/entertainers. However, I do know more than a few scientists and engineers that took significant risks and reaped multi-10's of millions of dollars, and for doing little more than their peers. But they took the risk.
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Totus, with all due respect, I've been asking myself since I was a kid, why did Babe Ruth, get paid more money to play ball, than the Nation's President, during his time.

I still don't get why Entertainers are paid more, than Surgeon's, Physicists, or Engineers, who have paved new crossroads into the Nation's improving Life for its people. I just don't get it, perhaps I never will........

I still have yet to meet any Engineer, other than Jack Northrop, who made multi-millions for using his brain. The CEO/President who replaced Jack, made $8 million in the year 2000, (his last year). Yes, that's alot of money. Yet, Jules Verne did all the math which NASA Engineers determined to be very accurate to land a man on the moon. Of course it takes more than One Engineer to screw a light bulb in. Yet, none of those folks lived to see a mil per year. Neither did Jules net what would been comparable to millions, way back then.


Sometimes I think personal accomplishment(s), may outweigh monetary gain. One is priceless, the other incurred cost revenues, or profit at peoples expense, with some return on their dollar. The other, costly too, but for their gain. There is a trade off here, what costs one, one gains from, in some cases. The Space Program was extremely costly, and its gains were/are endless accomplishments, feats, all mankind benefited from, and worth the risks. Yet, I've still to meet a millionaire Engineer, who improved the lives of all Mankind; versus a Millionaire Entertainer, who intrigues us, and gives us great memories, or fun, entertainment.

I think I never will get this one, and there is NO help for this old man, when it comes to comprehension how any entertainer makes our days better than a surgeon who saves our lives. I just don't get it.....guess I never will either, I would like to, but it seems a lesson in futility, for me anyway.

Again, with all due respect....enlighten me if you can. I do appreciate your take, and viewpoint, no doubt, please don't get me wrong. May be, I'm truly becoming a fossel dinosaur, age has a way of doing that, to us old fart's.
 
totus44 said:
Greed connotates that it is driven by purely selfish desire for wealth or possessions (if were going with Dictionary definitions). How have any of you been able to prove that his motives for rejecting the deal were driven by greed? You HAVEN'T, and you CAN'T...unless he publicly states his motives. Who the fuck are any of you to say what another man thinks his own value is? It's fine to agree or disagree with his decision, but to characterize it as greedy makes a lot of false assumptions.
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...and you have not "proven" his motives are NOT driven by greed. Sorry.

...and "who are we to say what another man thinks"?...seriously?...Uhhh, I'll go with it's an opinion on a message board?
 
totus44 said:
Greed connotates that it is driven by purely selfish desire for wealth or possessions (if were going with Dictionary definitions). How have any of you been able to prove that his motives for rejecting the deal were driven by greed? You HAVEN'T, and you CAN'T...unless he publicly states his motives. Who the fuck are any of you to say what another man thinks his own value is? It's fine to agree or disagree with his decision, but to characterize it as greedy makes a lot of false assumptions.

And you can't equate scientists and engineers and doctors and teachers to athletes/performers/entertainers. However, I do know more than a few scientists and engineers that took significant risks and reaped multi-10's of millions of dollars, and for doing little more than their peers. But they took the risk.

Schurzer now has a baseline value AND he knows what to the market trends have been for other pitchers. Taking a risk to maximize your return isn't greed. Sorry. You cannot equate this decision to anything contextual to your own lives or experiences. Biggest mistake people make....making it personal. You have to stick to the facts and the data. Facts and data point at a low ball offer from Detroit, because that is what is in their best interest to do at this phase of the negotiation. Why leave money on the table if you don't have too? But Max also said that if a deal wasn't done by the end of ST, he'd wait until after the season. You have no idea what he and his agent were asking for. Obviously it was larger than the offer we see now.

Like I said before, people that get hung up on the dollars and cents of baseball, that's their baggage. This is big business. You have to look at these deals in the context of how you would look at M&A activities of the companies in your stock portfolio, or the deals going on in your own industry. These aren't personal transactions. Max Schurzer did the right thing for Max Schurzer, Inc. Just like Robbie Cano did the right for for Robbie Cano, Inc. Corporations are accountable to their shareholders alone.
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If he did indeed say if nothing could be worked out (yeah like whay they offered was nothing) that he'll wait a year, then this much I can guarantee. If he has a down year, a losing season he will NEVER see that offer again. And if that happens the first thing people are going to say is...."That's what you get for being greedy". And the'll be right. And I would also add, "That's what you get for being foolish".

Look, all were saying is he had 0NE banner year & for that the Tigers offered him the moon. ONE fucking great year. And they offered him what 6 years & 150M. Honestly Totus as 99% of us are saying here I'm sure many will be thinking......"What a pair of balls on this guy". And this very well could come back to haunt him if he has a bad year. Which after this display of GREED most will be saying...."We can only hope".
 
Rick2583 said:
If he did indeed say if nothing could be worked out (yeah like whay they offered was nothing) that he'll wait a year, then this much I can guarantee. If he has a down year, a losing season he will NEVER see that offer again. And if that happens the first thing people are going to say is...."That's what you get for being greedy". And the'll be right. And I would also add, "That's what you get for being foolish".

Look, all were saying is he had 0NE banner year & for that the Tigers offered him the moon. ONE fucking great year. And they offered him what 6 years & 150M. Honestly Totus as 99% of us are saying here I'm sure many will be thinking......"What a pair of balls on this guy". And this very well could come back to haunt him if he has a bad year. Which after this display of GREED most will be saying...."We can only hope".
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My exact sentiments...
 
Rick2583 said:
Look IMO no one is worth the kind of money these athletes are being paid because its us the fans that pay for it. And the owners are not going to understand the cost to the fans until they start seeing more & more empty seats because fans can no longer afford to attend games. As far as the comparisons of Kershaw & Scherzer, lets take a look..........

Over the last 3 seasons there won & lost records are similar but that's where it ends...............

Kershaw.........51-23........Scherzer.........52-19
Kershaw.........2.21 ERA.........Scherzer..........3.69 ERA
Kershaw.........709 strike outs........Scherzer........645 strike outs
Kershaw...........0917 WHIP.........Scherzer.......1.172 WHIP

Kershaw has led the league for 3 straight seasons in WHIP & ERA. He has led the league in strike outs in 2 of the last 3 seasons. And has finished 1st, 2nd, and 1st in CYA voting

As posters like 59 & myself have repeatedly pointed out, you can't just go on wins, you need the ENTIRE package. Kershaw has done that, Scherzer has not....YET! Until he does a 9M dollar raise & 15M for the year is more then enough, for now. JMO.
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I'm not saying I disagree with you, but you also need to factor the league affect into the mix... records shouldn't be affected, but ERA would be lower in the NL, strikeouts would be higher in the NL, and WHIP would be lower in the NL all thanks to having the pitcher bat and not having the DH bat.

That being said, there is a bigger difference between 2.21 and 3.69 ERAs (1.48) than league difference... I don't think the strike out or WHIP difference (0.255)

If someone already brought this up, I apologize... I haven't been all the way through yet
 
Squishface said:
It's not. Greedy isn't the word for a man who has exactly one more year to command blockbuster money. And yes, if he plays as capably as last season he'll get Kershaw money. Barring catastrophic injury, even if he regresses slightly to considerably, he'll get paid what the Tigers offered him this season or slightly more on the open market. He gets to legitimately ask for this kind of money one more time, this is it, wring every dollar out of this opportunity, it's not coming again for a mid-30's front line starter.

Greedy isn't the right word, but petty is a great word for the Tigers organization. Releasing a presser calling your 29-year old stud of a frontline starter greedy is the tactic of a bygone era and does nothing but engenders bad blood.
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I have to agree with Squishface... all athletes are greedy IMO... so it's kinda hard to say one is more so than the other with few exceptions (A-Rod)...
 
yankeesince59 said:
Scott f'n Boras
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All Scherzer has to do is take a look at Boras 2 unemployed clients Morales & Drew. And how the stupid bastard talked them both into not accepted there 1 year 14M dollar offers.
 
lol! you guys are comical, way too obsessed with the salary numbers, and you're not looking at all the other terms of the deal.
 
totus44 said:
lol! you guys are comical, way too obsessed with the salary numbers, and you're not looking at all the other terms of the deal.
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You mean other items like the more then generous 6 years that would have taken him to the age of 36 that he ALSO turned down?
 
Rick2583 said:
You mean other items like the more then generous 6 years that would have taken him to the age of 36 that he ALSO turned down?
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yeah rick, there are generally more terms to a contract than salary and length. the devil is in the details.
 
totus44 said:
yeah rick, there are generally more terms to a contract than salary and length. the devil is in the details.
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Unless the contract called for him to give periodic blow jobs to the owners or to become somebody's butt buddy I really can't imagine much cause to turn down 150 million dollars.
 
totus44 said:
lol! you guys are comical, way too obsessed with the salary numbers, and you're not looking at all the other terms of the deal.
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...that's not the point, not at all, never has been. The point is that between him and Boras, they are both playing a game of Russian Roulette. Walking away from $150 Mil in lieu of demands for more is greed...sorry. Slice it, dice it, split hairs with word meanings all you want...it's still greed.
...and if you want to refer to us as "comical" as if we don't have a clue, well, that's fine too.
 
yankeesince59 said:
...that's not the point, not at all, never has been. The point is that between him and Boras, they are both playing a game of Russian Roulette. Walking away from $150 Mil in lieu of demands for more is greed...sorry. Slice it, dice it, split hairs with word meanings all you want...it's still greed.
...and if you want to refer to us as "comical" as if we don't have a clue, well, that's fine too.
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lol.....oh stop already. i just don't see the move as greedy. risky...sure, a gamble...you bet. but you have to respect a guy for going all-in on himself and his own abilities. that's the kind of player I want, not a guy that settles for a hometown discount because he's comfortable. comfort is for when you retire. and he's secure enough in his decision even if people want to think he's being greedy. That's a guy that isn't playing it safe. A guy willing to bust it inside, high and tight.

and maybe, he would prefer to just play somewhere else.
 
...stop what already?...you're the one referring to us as "comical".

...and I think it's safe to say that ALL players believe in their own abilities. I also have no idea why you would not want someone who is willing to settle for a hometown discount...that is the exact opposite of greed. But yeah, that's evidently a bad thing.

...and "playing somewhere else" is what he may want?...right, and Cano really preferred to play in Seattle. Sorry, Scherzer will follow the money.
 
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Aside from putting labels on this guy like greedy & having balls the size of water mellons not to mention being a complete ass hole if this decision back fires, how conceited does someone have to be to think you're worth 30M after having only ONE great season so far?
 
Rick2583 said:
Aside from putting labels on this guy like greedy & having balls the size of water mellons not to mention being a complete ass hole if this decision back fires, how conceited does someone have to be to think you're worth 30M after having only ONE great season so far?
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All these points are awesome, and great insight, into the mind of a good pitcher, who just had his first great year. Does that make Max a great pitcher overall for his lifetime achievements, no, just great for one year. A banner year no doubt, can he duplicate it, I'd like to see him do it, but I don't want to see him blow his arm out......I really doubt tho' anyone is going to offer him more than what he was already offered.

If so, whatever team wants to give him Kershaw like Money, is a flipping fool....Max is a fool for NOT taking the Money offered. That WAS a good deal from the Tigers....he could of retired maybe in infamy, maybe as a one hit wonder....watch no Team will offer him more than 25 Million, and he has to prove he's worth that, can he, will he, I really really doubt he can win a Cy Young back to back... not with Verlander healty...no way.....and NO WAY is he KERSHAW....no freaking way, is Max even close to the most talented Southpaw, we have seen in the last 3 years, and Clayton is only 25.....Scherzer is not close to Kershaw, and I doubt seriously, Max will ever be comparable to Kershaw....that Kid is a lifetime Wonder Boy....("don't call me -Superman")
 
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