Scientists are god-less liberals

[mook]

[sigh] Yeah, we know.

Ah, the easy-going wit of the conservative. When will me and my fellow commie pinkos learn the secret to your lighthearted but ever-so-insightful banter? I wake up every morning wishing I could crack a friendly joke like Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly. It makes you all so cuddly.

 

[BlazerWookee]

you're on. sucker born every minute

I said that I'd be willing to bet, I didn't say anything about being willing to bet with you...

 

[Eastoff]

Thanks for those numbers, mook. As an engineer with a pretty decent science background, it makes me pause a bit.

One of the hypotheses that I've developed since becoming a Christian that's somewhat related to this is that many scientists/researchers are pretty intelligent folks, and have been accustomed to being told that their entire lives. It lends itself very easily to a worldview where we control our lives and actions through our industry and intelligence, and you can think through anything. It doesn't lend itself to a religio-spiritual worldview where you believe that an Intelligent Imaginary Friend created the earth (whether in 6 days or 5B years) and we exist to glorify the IIF and enjoy/be stewards of that creation. It's one of the struggles I've gone/am going through personally.

I was a physics major at OSU, and i'd say there were several faculty members that were religious, a lot of jews actually. I think they just don't believe in a god that is constantly intervening, the clock-work god view or something.

 

[Eastoff]

I wouldn't say "immune from objective evidence". I'll happily talk with just about anyone (and have on here) about objective evidence, and I'm by no means a scientist whose job is to figure this stuff out.

I didn't mean "ego-centric" in a demeaning way, because it's not my place to change someone's worldview. But there really is a one-or-the-other choice...you either think that the universe was created by higher being for a purpose, or that it was all an accidental miracle of nature that the universe happened and we went from goo-to-you-by-way-of-the-zoo. In one of them a person is accountable to a higher being than ourselves, just as clay is to the potter. In the other, one's accountable only to himself and the society he adopts.
Naturally, if one wants to be accountable only to himself, the idea that there is a higher power that requires things of you is repulsive. The idea that you are held accountable for not following someone else's rules is unthinkable, and the idea that you must believe in a miracle to avoid a horrendous potentially-imaginary eternity is laughable.

I find it hilarious how ego-centric this comes across as. What if there is a god Xenu, in a galaxy far away who created his world, and he accidentally created this earth out in the backwaters. Or what if there was a mormon god that created another world, and there are gods for every single world? You sort of bunched it into "my view" and "their view."

As far as the social-contract, I am very accountable to the society. I am a good person, and as far as the jeudeo-christian dogma is concerned, the only difference in god's eyes between me and you, assuming you are a good man, is that I don't believe/worship him. If my good actions and kindness towards others does not outweigh my lack of a hard-on for Yaweh, then "frigg off ricky" I don't want to hang out with that douche-bag in heaven anyways! (narcissist would fit better)

You see athiests/agnostics have only this life, and thus we want to keep things good in this one life. That's why we freak out about global warming and oil reserves. We don't have faith that "god said it's all gravy so no worries brah!" By being productive members of society it is our chance to create something that will last longer than our singular self.

 

[BrianFromWA]

I didn't bunch it into "my view" and "their view", I bunched it into "you think there's someone who created you who you're accountable to for what that someone deigns", or "you don't". If you're either one that's fine. I don't know about Xenu. I don't know much about Mormon beliefs. I tend not to understand hypotheticals too well, since many of them are straw men. I've put a decent amount of thought, study and reflection into mine. I'm willing to put it out there and have an answer for why I believe in laughable doctrines supposedly spewed forth by Imaginary Friends.

I have doubts about your understanding of Christian "dogma". If you think you're a good man (and I have no doubt that to the American social contract that you may be), then you and I have differing beliefs about the nature of Man. Your good actions and kindness to others (in the Christian worldview now--not saying that you must believe it) don't outweigh your bad or omitted thoughts and actions (more commonly misunderstood with the term "sin"). It's not some cosmic balance: it's either you're perfect or you're not. Personally, I'm not. Personally, I believe it when the Bible say that no one is. The "difference in God's eyes between me and you" doesn't have anything to do with your hard-on for God--it has to do with realizing that you're accountable to Him for His rules. And if you don't stack up, well, that's where the laughable belief in the miracle comes in.

I'm sorry that you find it "hilarious how ego-centric" that worldview is. I understand more than you think how repulsive that worldview is.

 

[barfo]

I have doubts about your understanding of Christian "dogma". If you think you're a good man (and I have no doubt that to the American social contract that you may be), then you and I have differing beliefs about the nature of Man. Your good actions and kindness to others (in the Christian worldview now--not saying that you must believe it) don't outweigh your bad or omitted thoughts and actions (more commonly misunderstood with the term "sin"). It's not some cosmic balance: it's either you're perfect or you're not. Personally, I'm not.

When you put it like that, no one is perfect. But that doesn't seem like a helpful definition. If no man is good because no man is perfect, then good isn't a useful word for categorizing people. But, surely there are differences between people - Mother Teresa does not have the same moral quality as a serial killer, does she? What word should we use if not good?

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Anyone read Carl Sagan's book, "Contact" or seen the movie?

What do you make of all the religious symbolism throughout? This was a very well known but dying scientist who wrote the book. Maybe faced with mortality, even the most devout believer in science wants something more...

Examples of religious symbolism:
Jodie Foster basically goes to heaven and meets her dead father there.
There's the whole bunch of religious zealot imagery throughout the film and book. The guy who blew up the multi-$trillion alien device was one of those zealots.
The special advisor to the president was a man of the cloth, but also a believer in science.
She was initially refused as the one to ride on the alien device because she testified before congress that she was godless.

And finally, when she testified at the end of the movie, when everyone saw and the videotapes recorded her trip took a matter of seconds, she burst into tears and begged everyone to believe her; that she had this very real experience and everyone would basically have to take her word (on FAITH) about it.

More related to this thread...

Why does light travel at 186,000 miles/second and not 187,000 or 185,000? Why is water 2x hydrogen and 1x oxygen?

As a not at all religious person, I can see that we accept the Rules to be what they are, but nobody ever really talks about why the Rules are the way they are. Like someone could have written them.

 

[BrianFromWA]

When you put it like that, no one is perfect. But that doesn't seem like a helpful definition. If no man is good because no man is perfect, then good isn't a useful word for categorizing people. But, surely there are differences between people - Mother Teresa does not have the same moral quality as a serial killer, does she? What word should we use if not good?

barfo

Romans 6:23 says: The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus.
To opine about your question: I don't believe that God sees Mother Theresa any differently than a serial killer who becomes "born again" the day before his execution in terms of who shall live forever with God vs. who will live eternally separated from God. Mother Theresa wasn't perfect (though she was extremely compassionate and did more for God's children than almost anyone), and falls short of the standard God sets for getting into Heaven on our own. We can't do it. That's where belief in the miracle comes in. It's the only ticket to Heaven.

One of the more whacked-out things in the Bible is that Jesus tells us there isn't a difference in God's eyes between stealing, dishonoring your mother, or serial murder. It's all sin, all of which He necessarily must reject (and the sinner), since He is perfectly holy. I don't know why that is, or how He got to be that way. But our view of "moral" as humans doesn't jive with God's view. If you don't believe in God (or don't believe the Bible is His Truth), then it's easy to dismiss it as fodder for unintelligent sops who can't grasp real life and its problems. But if you're professing to a belief in Biblical Christianity, then you can't say that God believes anyone was "good" or "moral". He =

We've learned in the recent past in my church to understand that "I am the worst sinner I know"--because even if I knew a serial murderer, all I see are his outward actions. I get to live with my heart and mind and soul everyday, and know how sinful some of my thoughts, words and deeds can be.

I'm tired and this is starting to ramble. Hope it helped a bit to explain where I'm coming from.

 

[barfo]

Romans 6:23 says: The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus.
To opine about your question: I don't believe that God sees Mother Theresa any differently than a serial killer who becomes "born again" the day before his execution in terms of who shall live forever with God vs. who will live eternally separated from God. Mother Theresa wasn't perfect (though she was extremely compassionate and did more for God's children than almost anyone), and falls short of the standard God sets for getting into Heaven on our own. We can't do it. That's where belief in the miracle comes in. It's the only ticket to Heaven.

One of the more whacked-out things in the Bible is that Jesus tells us there isn't a difference in God's eyes between stealing, dishonoring your mother, or serial murder. It's all sin, all of which He necessarily must reject (and the sinner), since He is perfectly holy. I don't know why that is, or how He got to be that way. But our view of "moral" as humans doesn't jive with God's view. If you don't believe in God (or don't believe the Bible is His Truth), then it's easy to dismiss it as fodder for unintelligent sops who can't grasp real life and its problems. But if you're professing to a belief in Biblical Christianity, then you can't say that God believes anyone was "good" or "moral". He =

We've learned in the recent past in my church to understand that "I am the worst sinner I know"--because even if I knew a serial murderer, all I see are his outward actions. I get to live with my heart and mind and soul everyday, and know how sinful some of my thoughts, words and deeds can be.

I'm tired and this is starting to ramble. Hope it helped a bit to explain where I'm coming from.

Sounds like the optimal approach is to rape, pillage, murder, and generally be as big a self-centered ass as possible throughout life, and then repent on the deathbed. That's just as good or better than going to church for 70 years and donating to charity and caring for your fellow man and all that? Your god is one strange duck, for sure.

barfo

 

[Eastoff]

Sounds like the optimal approach is to rape, pillage, murder, and generally be as big a self-centered ass as possible throughout life, and then repent on the deathbed. That's just as good or better than going to church for 70 years and donating to charity and caring for your fellow man and all that? Your god is one strange duck, for sure.

barfo

this. and that is EXACTLY why i said If yaweh won't let me in because i don't have a hard-on for him, then i don't want to hang out with the narcissist. Simply "loving jesus" is enough to get into heaven, if anything that sounds like you are not accountable for any of your misdeeds. All is forgiven, right?

 

[BrianFromWA]

He is a strange duck, and tells us that it's impossible to "figure Him out". He tells us that His ways are higher than our ways, and that we can't understand Him.

No, "simply 'loving Jesus'" isn't enough.

And yes, if you do the things that get your misdeeds forgiven, then all is forgiven. Unfortunately for many, they don't believe it.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Sounds like the optimal approach is to rape, pillage, murder, and generally be as big a self-centered ass as possible throughout life, and then repent on the deathbed. That's just as good or better than going to church for 70 years and donating to charity and caring for your fellow man and all that? Your god is one strange duck, for sure.

barfo

He doesn't say it's just as good: He says that (btw: If by "repent" you mean the Biblical "repent and believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead, a death He died in our place") there isn't a difference in who will live with Him forever. He says that living life the first way isn't good, and the second is. But no amount of charity or church attendance justifies your unholy actions as holy. Mother Theresa is no more able to earn her way into Heaven than Ted Bundy. The life she lived was more in accordance with what God says to do, obviously. Depending on your view of the end times and Heaven, she'll be in better stead in Heaven for what she did with the time and resources she was given on earth, but to say that she's more qualified for Heaven or whatever isn't what God tells us in the Bible.

 

[Natebishop3]

Al Gore only has one thing to say to all of you..... lock box.

 

[barfo]

He doesn't say it's just as good: He says that (btw: If by "repent" you mean the Biblical "repent and believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead, a death He died in our place")

I'm not that sophisticated. I just meant "do whatever it is that He requires to get into heaven."

there isn't a difference in who will live with Him forever. He says that living life the first way isn't good, and the second is. But no amount of charity or church attendance justifies your unholy actions as holy. Mother Theresa is no more able to earn her way into Heaven than Ted Bundy. The life she lived was more in accordance with what God says to do, obviously. Depending on your view of the end times and Heaven, she'll be in better stead in Heaven for what she did with the time and resources she was given on earth, but to say that she's more qualified for Heaven or whatever isn't what God tells us in the Bible.

So it still seems like, even if I kill 6,000,000,000 people, I can muscle Mother Teresa aside and get into heaven ahead of her (and thus get the comfy chair by the window). I just have to do some certain stuff, not sure what you call it, but I can do it right before I die even if I've killed everyone else on the planet. And then I'm golden.

So why go to church?

barfo

 

[BrianFromWA]

I wouldn't call it muscling her aside, I'd say "just as much right through our own efforts". There are many biblical examples, but the thief on the cross is one that gives many hope. He's been a criminal--so much so that he was being crucified, but he did the only things that God says we have to do to be justified in His eyes and get into heaven: repent of what you've done, and believe that Jesus is Who He says He is and that He did what He said He did. So yes, if you killed everyone on the planet, and then repented of it and accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior, you're in. So God says, at least--and I believe Him.
Though it sounds very easy to "be golden", our nature isn't set up for it. That's residue from the Fall of Adam and Eve.
No one's saying that helping people isn't pleasing to God. No one's saying that we need to live a hedonistic, narcissistic life because we're covered by Jesus. Romans 5 and 6 are tough chapters (heck, Romans is a tough book) to understand, and implications of the teaching are far-reaching. Obviously I recommend reading it instead of taking my word for things, but the short answer for your "why go to church?" question is community. Church is the body of believers, not a building you go to on Sunday morning. It's a way to be encouraged, taught, held accountable, exhorted. It's an outlet for you to teach, help, serve, grow. There are people there you need, and people who need you. That's a crazy and great thing about how God's ways aren't ours: that He brings together people whose sole similar characteristic is their devotion to and worship of Him, and that so many blessings come from that.

 

[barfo]

I wouldn't call it muscling her aside, I'd say "just as much right through our own efforts". There are many biblical examples, but the thief on the cross is one that gives many hope. He's been a criminal--so much so that he was being crucified, but he did the only things that God says we have to do to be justified in His eyes and get into heaven: repent of what you've done, and believe that Jesus is Who He says He is and that He did what He said He did. So yes, if you killed everyone on the planet, and then repented of it and accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior, you're in. So God says, at least--and I believe Him.
Though it sounds very easy to "be golden", our nature isn't set up for it. That's residue from the Fall of Adam and Eve.
No one's saying that helping people isn't pleasing to God. No one's saying that we need to live a hedonistic, narcissistic life because we're covered by Jesus. Romans 5 and 6 are tough chapters (heck, Romans is a tough book) to understand, and implications of the teaching are far-reaching. Obviously I recommend reading it instead of taking my word for things, but the short answer for your "why go to church?" question is community. Church is the body of believers, not a building you go to on Sunday morning. It's a way to be encouraged, taught, held accountable, exhorted. It's an outlet for you to teach, help, serve, grow. There are people there you need, and people who need you. That's a crazy and great thing about how God's ways aren't ours: that He brings together people whose sole similar characteristic is their devotion to and worship of Him, and that so many blessings come from that.

Well, those community things might be (mildly) pleasing to god, but if I can get out of it by using my get out of hell free card at the end, I'm not going to bother with that stuff. Now, admittedly, I don't know what it is that constitutes the get out of hell free card, and maybe I can't pull it off in the end, but killing everyone that annoys me and then repenting seems like a much better strategy than doing a bunch of time-consuming things that he doesn't really care about anyway.

barfo

 

[BrianFromWA]

You're distilling WAAAY too much, but the conundrum you're describing has been studied and discussed for 20 centuries. And I'm not smart enough to change your mind. That's between you and God.

Jesus speaks of two commandments: love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and strength (some add "mind", since that's from Deuteronomy), and to love your neighbor as yourself. People generally don't have a hard time attempting #2, for whatever reason. But #1 is kind of where I was going with my original hypothesis from Post 3 or whatever: it's generally hard to worship (through faith) something other than yourself and your abilities. Especially, imho, if you feel that you're pretty good to begin with (whether that means intelligent, moral, charitable, whatever). The doctrine of the Sovereignty of God is one that was difficult for me to read and understand at first, because it goes against so many of our "human" or "natural" impulses. (I'd really recommend Pink's book "Sovereignty of God" if you have some time to really chew on a book.) Strobel's a journalist who's put out a couple of books on his research into and discovery of Christianity called Case for Faith and Case for Christ. They're not as doctrinally meaty, but someone who's job is to convey information to the masses wrote books detailing his mindset, journey and conclusions. Better than I can do in hijacking a message board thread, anyway.

 

[crowTrobot]

Why does light travel at 186,000 miles/second and not 187,000 or 185,000? Why is water 2x hydrogen and 1x oxygen?

As a not at all religious person, I can see that we accept the Rules to be what they are, but nobody ever really talks about why the Rules are the way they are. Like someone could have written them.

we don't know why the fixed constants of nature are what they are, but there's no reason to think they necessarily have to be "written" by an intelligent designer. lots of directly observable purely mechanical processes in nature result in things having emergent properties that are either random or adaptation to environment. constants such as the speed of light could easily be the result of mechanical processes.

 

[crowTrobot]

The "difference in God's eyes between me and you" doesn't have anything to do with your hard-on for God--it has to do with realizing that you're accountable to Him for His rules. And if you don't stack up, well, that's where the laughable belief in the miracle comes in.

I'm sorry that you find it "hilarious how ego-centric" that worldview is. I understand more than you think how repulsive that worldview is.

you don't understand at all. you keep implying that the truth of a "higher power" should be compelling to everyone, and the only reason an intelligent person would reject it is because they don't like the idea of being accountable to authority. you are not allowing for the possibility that most people simply reject the possibility based on their view of evidence, and would gladly submit to a higher power if they actually thought they had good reason to believe one existed. your hypothesis is definitionally delusional (not to mention incredibly arrogant).

 

[mook]

Denny-- You might be interested in this book:
http://www.amazon.com/symbiotic-uni...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251384108&sr=1-3
Really interesting exploration of how improbable conditions for life are, and some theories as to why it is so. I enjoyed it. But it's pretty old, though--there are probably better ones out there now.

 

[crowTrobot]

He is a strange duck, and tells us that it's impossible to "figure Him out". He tells us that His ways are higher than our ways, and that we can't understand Him.

you can't understand so don't try, just blindly believe.

nice cult you've got going there.

 

[Blazerfan22]

Here's a simple question...

How can so many say well I cant see God, and the Bible was written by man so its fake...BUT yet will glorify science "which is man made" and say its the truth even though its really based upon mans theory's.

 

[Eastoff]

...
So it still seems like, even if I kill 6,000,000,000 people, I can muscle Mother Teresa aside and get into heaven ahead of her (and thus get the comfy chair by the window). I just have to do some certain stuff, not sure what you call it, but I can do it right before I die even if I've killed everyone else on the planet. And then I'm golden.
...
barfo

I think that plane ride up is going to be a little cramped ;]

 

[Eastoff]

Here's a simple question...

How can so many say well I cant see God, and the Bible was written by man so its fake...BUT yet will glorify science "which is man made" and say its the truth even though its really based upon mans theory's.

because you can prove that relativity exists. You can prove that time goes slower in an orbitting satelite and that space is bent by gravity. You can prove that at the very least micro evolution exists, if not macro evolution. These are things that someone with the proper equipment can go back and take data measurements again independently. Can someone go back and prove jesus did in fact rise from the dead? Although along that same line of thinking, it is hard to prove Julius Caesar was the first emperor of Rome.

 

[BlazerWookee]

Well, those community things might be (mildly) pleasing to god, but if I can get out of it by using my get out of hell free card at the end, I'm not going to bother with that stuff. Now, admittedly, I don't know what it is that constitutes the get out of hell free card, and maybe I can't pull it off in the end, but killing everyone that annoys me and then repenting seems like a much better strategy than doing a bunch of time-consuming things that he doesn't really care about anyway.

barfo

If you plan on killing everyone who annoys you and then using repentance as a get out of hell free card at the last minute, you're not truly repenting, and you end up with a go to jail – go directly to jail – do not pass go, do not collect $200 card.

 

[BlazerWookee]

you can't understand so don't try, just blindly believe.

nice cult you've got going there.

If God doesn't exist, and Yngwie is God, doesn't it follow that Yngwie doesn't exist?

 

[Eastoff]

If God doesn't exist, and Yngwie is God, doesn't it follow that Yngwie doesn't exist?

Look man, you just can't understand what a cult means, CrowTrobot's ways are mysterious and above yours. Just accept it.

 

[crowTrobot]

Here's a simple question...

How can so many say well I cant see God, and the Bible was written by man so its fake...BUT yet will glorify science "which is man made" and say its the truth even though its really based upon mans theory's.

science is just a method for determining functional truth by learning from observation. it's a practical tool that everyone uses, not a glorified "theory".

perhaps by "science" you mean scientific theory that contradicts religious belief, such as evolution?

 

[crowTrobot]

If God doesn't exist, and Yngwie is God, doesn't it follow that Yngwie doesn't exist?

Yngwie exists. Yahweh doesn't

 

[barfo]

If you plan on killing everyone who annoys you and then using repentance as a get out of hell free card at the last minute, you're not truly repenting, and you end up with a go to jail – go directly to jail – do not pass go, do not collect $200 card.

Assume I didn't plan it then, but I still did it.

barfo