Scientology: Cult or new religion?
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MikeDC
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I'd go for yes, a cult. I don't know the textbook definitions, but my guess is the main distinguisher between a cult and a true religion ought to be the true beliefs and motives of the religion's leadership.
Like, say what you want about the Pope, but I don't think he's secretly an atheist who just acts as the leader of the Catholic faith to get paid.
L. Ron Hubbard and his successors... not so much.
Like, say what you want about the Pope, but I don't think he's secretly an atheist who just acts as the leader of the Catholic faith to get paid.
L. Ron Hubbard and his successors... not so much.
bbwchingy0007
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None of the above: it's bollocks
AEM
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I'd go so far as to say that any belief system started by a hack writer as a JOKE can never be called a religion - or not with a straight face, anyway. Hell, even Cthulhu worship can't qualify (though even it's devotees call it a cult, so that point is moot)
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Jan 9 2008, 09:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'd go so far as to say that any belief system started by a hack writer as a JOKE can never be called a religion - or not with a straight face, anyway. Hell, even Cthulhu worship can't qualify (though even it's devotees call it a cult, so that point is moot)</div>
Is that true? (I know nothing about Scientology.)
Is that true? (I know nothing about Scientology.)
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Define "cult"
No fair using a dictionary.
No fair using a dictionary.
Kid Chocolate
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hail XENU!
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Cult. It is typically used in two contexts: religion and fandom. The meaning of the word is the same in both contexts! I'll talk about the latter first.
C-SPAN and it's creator Brian Lamb, has a cult following. Certain movies are cult classics. That a movie can have a cult following eliminates a charismatic leader from the definition.
The Branch Davidians were a cult. Catholics consider Mormons a cult.
The common elements seem to me to be the size of the following/flock and the orthodoxy of the subject matter. I'd say that an element of brainwashing is involved, and the connotation of the word "cult" raises the image (to me) of kidnappings+brainwashing=new members.
Given that there are millions of members of Scientology world-wide, it's not small enough that I'd consider it a cult (as in the Davidians). It has an actual belief system behind it, so it qualifies as religion.
It's a work in progress, though. At one point, all of Christianity was a cult, for sure. It's grown far beyond that, obviously. Scientology faces some of the same biases against it that early Christianity did, particularly conflict with States.
C-SPAN and it's creator Brian Lamb, has a cult following. Certain movies are cult classics. That a movie can have a cult following eliminates a charismatic leader from the definition.
The Branch Davidians were a cult. Catholics consider Mormons a cult.
The common elements seem to me to be the size of the following/flock and the orthodoxy of the subject matter. I'd say that an element of brainwashing is involved, and the connotation of the word "cult" raises the image (to me) of kidnappings+brainwashing=new members.
Given that there are millions of members of Scientology world-wide, it's not small enough that I'd consider it a cult (as in the Davidians). It has an actual belief system behind it, so it qualifies as religion.
It's a work in progress, though. At one point, all of Christianity was a cult, for sure. It's grown far beyond that, obviously. Scientology faces some of the same biases against it that early Christianity did, particularly conflict with States.
bbwMax
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My Theory on Christianity is that when we were Mere Cavemen they beleived in Gods to explain unexplainable forces, Fire, Thunder that kinda stuff. And all the religions left are just what people Choose to beleive after the Unexplainable things were Finally Explained.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Max @ Jan 10 2008, 11:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>My Theory on Christianity is that when we were Mere Cavemen they beleived in Gods to explain unexplainable forces, Fire, Thunder that kinda stuff. And all the religions left are just what people Choose to beleive after the Unexplainable things were Finally Explained.</div>
We don't understand something so we explain it with something we understand even less. God did it.
We don't understand something so we explain it with something we understand even less. God did it.
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God is as good an answer to the questions that science can't answer as anything else is...
There is scientific evidence of a Big Bang to start the Universe. There is no answer as to what caused it, or how the initial matter got there.
An equally interesting question is where all the hydrogen in the universe came from. Without it, there'd be no stars. It had to be there from the beginning, and in massive quantities.
There is scientific evidence of a Big Bang to start the Universe. There is no answer as to what caused it, or how the initial matter got there.
An equally interesting question is where all the hydrogen in the universe came from. Without it, there'd be no stars. It had to be there from the beginning, and in massive quantities.
bbwchingy0007
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jan 10 2008, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>There is scientific evidence of a Big Bang to start the Universe. There is no answer as to what caused it, or how the initial matter got there.</div>
The same can be said for God, though, where did he come from?
The same can be said for God, though, where did he come from?
bbwMax
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chingy0007 @ Jan 10 2008, 12:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jan 10 2008, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>There is scientific evidence of a Big Bang to start the Universe. There is no answer as to what caused it, or how the initial matter got there.</div>
The same can be said for God, though, where did he come from?
</div>
Touché. Good question. What or Who Created God if There is one?
The same can be said for God, though, where did he come from?
</div>
Touché. Good question. What or Who Created God if There is one?
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The monotheistic god always did and always will exist.
When it comes to the universe, there was a big debate between a "steady state" universe, which is similar in concept - always did and always will exist. Of course, the Big Bang Theory is what is in vogue these days.
I have more obvious questions:
1) Scientists say they have a decent picture of milliseconds after the big bang. How about milliseconds before?
2) If the Big Bang occurred 15B years ago, then the universe should only be 30B light years across (it's a sphere) yet it's considerably larger.
3) If you stood at the edge of the universe and took one step outward, where would you be?
When it comes to the universe, there was a big debate between a "steady state" universe, which is similar in concept - always did and always will exist. Of course, the Big Bang Theory is what is in vogue these days.
I have more obvious questions:
1) Scientists say they have a decent picture of milliseconds after the big bang. How about milliseconds before?
2) If the Big Bang occurred 15B years ago, then the universe should only be 30B light years across (it's a sphere) yet it's considerably larger.
3) If you stood at the edge of the universe and took one step outward, where would you be?
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Max,
I envision it this way...
There's an infinite void, a true void. What we call the "universe" fills only part of it, and is growing and expanding to fill more of it. What we call space isn't a void, it's filled with "stuff" like particles and dust and radiation. The void would not contain anything like that at all, a true void.
So if you stepped out beyond the edge of the universe, you'd be in that void.
This is not consistent with the universe being bigger than 30B light years tho. If everything started as a singularity at the center of the universe 15B years ago, the big bang would send stuff out in all directions, in the shape of a sphere. It is accepted that the speed of light cannot be exceeded, so a radius from the center of the sphere would be 15B light years and the diameter would be 30B light years.
However, space/time is seen as a fabric that stretches. So it has stretched at the same time things are expanding, so from the very edge of it to the opposite very edge of it is considerably bigger than the 30B light years.
If this is possible, then standing on the edge and moving one step outward would simply expand the space/time fabric by one step.
Pick yer poison
I envision it this way...
There's an infinite void, a true void. What we call the "universe" fills only part of it, and is growing and expanding to fill more of it. What we call space isn't a void, it's filled with "stuff" like particles and dust and radiation. The void would not contain anything like that at all, a true void.
So if you stepped out beyond the edge of the universe, you'd be in that void.
This is not consistent with the universe being bigger than 30B light years tho. If everything started as a singularity at the center of the universe 15B years ago, the big bang would send stuff out in all directions, in the shape of a sphere. It is accepted that the speed of light cannot be exceeded, so a radius from the center of the sphere would be 15B light years and the diameter would be 30B light years.
However, space/time is seen as a fabric that stretches. So it has stretched at the same time things are expanding, so from the very edge of it to the opposite very edge of it is considerably bigger than the 30B light years.
If this is possible, then standing on the edge and moving one step outward would simply expand the space/time fabric by one step.
Pick yer poison
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Why are we here? What's life all about?
Is God really real, or is there some doubt?
Well, tonight, we're going to sort it all out,
For, tonight, it's 'The Meaning of Life'.
What's the point of all this hoax?
Is it the chicken and the egg time? Are we just yolks?
Or, perhaps, we're just one of God's little jokes.
Well, ça c'est 'The Meaning of Life'.
Is life just a game where we make up the rules
While we're searching for something to say,
Or are we just simply spiralling coils
Of self-replicating DN-- nay, nay, nay, nay, nay, nay, nay.
What is life? What is our fate?
Is there a Heaven and Hell? Do we reincarnate?
Is mankind evolving, or is it too late?
Well, tonight, here's 'The Meaning of Life'.
For millions, this 'life' is a sad vale of tears,
Sitting 'round with really nothing to say
While the scientists say we're just simply spiralling coils
Of self-replicating DN-- nay, nay, nay, nay, nay, nay, nay.
So, just why-- why are we here,
And just what-- what-- what-- what do we fear?
Well, ce soir, for a change, it will all be made clear,
For this is 'The Meaning of Life'. C'est le sens de la vie.
This is 'The Meaning of Life'.
Is God really real, or is there some doubt?
Well, tonight, we're going to sort it all out,
For, tonight, it's 'The Meaning of Life'.
What's the point of all this hoax?
Is it the chicken and the egg time? Are we just yolks?
Or, perhaps, we're just one of God's little jokes.
Well, ça c'est 'The Meaning of Life'.
Is life just a game where we make up the rules
While we're searching for something to say,
Or are we just simply spiralling coils
Of self-replicating DN-- nay, nay, nay, nay, nay, nay, nay.
What is life? What is our fate?
Is there a Heaven and Hell? Do we reincarnate?
Is mankind evolving, or is it too late?
Well, tonight, here's 'The Meaning of Life'.
For millions, this 'life' is a sad vale of tears,
Sitting 'round with really nothing to say
While the scientists say we're just simply spiralling coils
Of self-replicating DN-- nay, nay, nay, nay, nay, nay, nay.
So, just why-- why are we here,
And just what-- what-- what-- what do we fear?
Well, ce soir, for a change, it will all be made clear,
For this is 'The Meaning of Life'. C'est le sens de la vie.
This is 'The Meaning of Life'.
AEM
Gesundheit
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jan 10 2008, 01:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The monotheistic god always did and always will exist.
When it comes to the universe, there was a big debate between a "steady state" universe, which is similar in concept - always did and always will exist. Of course, the Big Bang Theory is what is in vogue these days.
I have more obvious questions:
1) Scientists say they have a decent picture of milliseconds after the big bang. How about milliseconds before?
2) If the Big Bang occurred 15B years ago, then the universe should only be 30B light years across (it's a sphere) yet it's considerably larger.
3) If you stood at the edge of the universe and took one step outward, where would you be?</div>
1) Milliseconds 'before,' there was no 'before' as time (subjective/linear) didn't exist then. There was only God and Time (objective/infinite) Hence the Kabbalistic appellation of God pre-creation: Ein Sof (lit. without end, infinite and undefinable)
2) I need a better yardstick, or maybe a metric one.
3) Either a) still in the universe, or
somehow transitioned into the Divine.
When it comes to the universe, there was a big debate between a "steady state" universe, which is similar in concept - always did and always will exist. Of course, the Big Bang Theory is what is in vogue these days.
I have more obvious questions:
1) Scientists say they have a decent picture of milliseconds after the big bang. How about milliseconds before?
2) If the Big Bang occurred 15B years ago, then the universe should only be 30B light years across (it's a sphere) yet it's considerably larger.
3) If you stood at the edge of the universe and took one step outward, where would you be?</div>
1) Milliseconds 'before,' there was no 'before' as time (subjective/linear) didn't exist then. There was only God and Time (objective/infinite) Hence the Kabbalistic appellation of God pre-creation: Ein Sof (lit. without end, infinite and undefinable)
2) I need a better yardstick, or maybe a metric one.
3) Either a) still in the universe, or
AEM
Gesundheit
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jan 10 2008, 12:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Define "cult"
No fair using a dictionary.</div>
What if one is a walking dictionary?
Setting that lesser-seen (dorky) side apart for the moment, I would say briefly that a cult differs from a religion not only in being relatively less established and 'regular' in practice, but also insistent on venerating a person (or thing) in a ridiculously intense and faddish way. The whole charismatic leader part usually mentioned in dictionary definitions is not actually essential, if you really think about it.
Scientology is most certainly a cult.
No fair using a dictionary.</div>
What if one is a walking dictionary?
Setting that lesser-seen (dorky) side apart for the moment, I would say briefly that a cult differs from a religion not only in being relatively less established and 'regular' in practice, but also insistent on venerating a person (or thing) in a ridiculously intense and faddish way. The whole charismatic leader part usually mentioned in dictionary definitions is not actually essential, if you really think about it.
Scientology is most certainly a cult.
GMJ
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Science H. Logic!
It is most definitely a cult. I mean c'mon its based on a science fiction book.
As for drawing parallels comparing it to larger, more substantiated religions? Don't ask me, I'm a stout atheist (but also a devote Unitarian Universalist)
It is most definitely a cult. I mean c'mon its based on a science fiction book.
As for drawing parallels comparing it to larger, more substantiated religions? Don't ask me, I'm a stout atheist (but also a devote Unitarian Universalist)
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Jan 10 2008, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jan 10 2008, 12:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Define "cult"
No fair using a dictionary.</div>
What if one is a walking dictionary?
Setting that lesser-seen (dorky) side apart for the moment, I would say briefly that a cult differs from a religion not only in being relatively less established and 'regular' in practice, but also insistent on venerating a person (or thing) in a ridiculously intense and faddish way. The whole charismatic leader part usually mentioned in dictionary definitions is not actually essential, if you really think about it.
Scientology is most certainly a cult.
</div>
Charismatic leader probably isn't in the dictionary.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Jan 10 2008, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Science H. Logic!
It is most definitely a cult. I mean c'mon its based on a science fiction book.
As for drawing parallels comparing it to larger, more substantiated religions? Don't ask me, I'm a stout atheist (but also a devote Unitarian Universalist)</div>
Is the Bible fact or fiction? I say fiction. So all of Christianity must be a cult because it's based on a book of fiction.
Seems to me that the book being fiction, science or otherwise, isn't a defining characteristic of religion. Rather it's the wisdom found in the book, which seems to be enough to qualify Scientology as an actual religion.
A key tennet of a religon, to me, is its values and morality. Not a religion if there's no morality.
There's this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology#Morals_and_Ethics
Morals and Ethics
Scientologists follow The Way to Happiness, which defines morals as "a code of good conduct laid down out of the experience of the race to serve as a uniform yardstick for the conduct of individuals and groups"<sup>[62]</sup> but warns that "over time, morals can become outmoded, burdensome, and so invite revolt."<sup>[63]</sup>
Scientology states that there is no absolute right or wrong but that right and wrong are actually a gradient from right to wrong.<sup>[64]</sup> An action must contain construction which outweighs the destruction it contains in order to be considered good.<sup>[65]</sup> "Good is any action which brings the greatest construction to the greatest number of dynamics while bringing the least destruction."<sup>[66]</sup> "An 'absolute wrongness' would be the extinction of the universe and all energy and the source of energy. . . . An 'absolute "rightness"' would be the immortality of the individual himself, his children, his group, mankind and the universe."<sup>[67]</sup>
Scientology defines ethics as "the actions an individual takes on himself to ensure his continued survival across the dynamics. It is a personal thing that an ethical person does by his own choice."<sup>[68]</sup> "Ethics actually consists of rationality toward the highest level of survival for the individual, the future race, the group, Mankind and the other dynamics taken up collectively. Ethics are reason. Man's greatest weapon is his reason."<sup>[69]</sup> According to Scientology, various ethical states or "conditions" represent one's degree of success and delineate a sequence of steps to improve that condition of existence.<sup>[70]</sup> From best to worst, these "conditions" are Power, Affluence, Normal, Emergency, Danger, Non-Existence, Liability, Doubt, Enemy, Treason and Confusion. Scientologists are expected to use statistical measurement to assess "measurement of survival potential,"<sup>[71]</sup> where a downward trend could identify an 'emergency condition' and an upward trend could identify a 'affluence condition'.<sup>[72]</sup> According to The Scientology Handbook, the Scientology method of statistics can and should be applied to individuals, groups and organizations inside and outside of Scientology.<sup>[73]</sup>
Prof. Stephen A. Kent quotes Hubbard as pronouncing that "the purpose of ethics is to remove counter-intentions from the environment. Having accomplished that, the purpose becomes to remove other intentionedness from the environment." What this translates to, according to Kent, is "a peculiar brand of morality that uniquely benefitted [the Church of Scientology]. . . . In plain English, the purpose of Scientology ethics is to eliminate opponents, then eliminate people's interests in things other than Scientology."<sup>[74]</sup>
http://
No fair using a dictionary.</div>
What if one is a walking dictionary?
Setting that lesser-seen (dorky) side apart for the moment, I would say briefly that a cult differs from a religion not only in being relatively less established and 'regular' in practice, but also insistent on venerating a person (or thing) in a ridiculously intense and faddish way. The whole charismatic leader part usually mentioned in dictionary definitions is not actually essential, if you really think about it.
Scientology is most certainly a cult.
</div>
Charismatic leader probably isn't in the dictionary.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Jan 10 2008, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Science H. Logic!
It is most definitely a cult. I mean c'mon its based on a science fiction book.
As for drawing parallels comparing it to larger, more substantiated religions? Don't ask me, I'm a stout atheist (but also a devote Unitarian Universalist)</div>
Is the Bible fact or fiction? I say fiction. So all of Christianity must be a cult because it's based on a book of fiction.
Seems to me that the book being fiction, science or otherwise, isn't a defining characteristic of religion. Rather it's the wisdom found in the book, which seems to be enough to qualify Scientology as an actual religion.
A key tennet of a religon, to me, is its values and morality. Not a religion if there's no morality.
There's this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology#Morals_and_Ethics
Morals and Ethics
Scientologists follow The Way to Happiness, which defines morals as "a code of good conduct laid down out of the experience of the race to serve as a uniform yardstick for the conduct of individuals and groups"<sup>[62]</sup> but warns that "over time, morals can become outmoded, burdensome, and so invite revolt."<sup>[63]</sup>
Scientology states that there is no absolute right or wrong but that right and wrong are actually a gradient from right to wrong.<sup>[64]</sup> An action must contain construction which outweighs the destruction it contains in order to be considered good.<sup>[65]</sup> "Good is any action which brings the greatest construction to the greatest number of dynamics while bringing the least destruction."<sup>[66]</sup> "An 'absolute wrongness' would be the extinction of the universe and all energy and the source of energy. . . . An 'absolute "rightness"' would be the immortality of the individual himself, his children, his group, mankind and the universe."<sup>[67]</sup>
Scientology defines ethics as "the actions an individual takes on himself to ensure his continued survival across the dynamics. It is a personal thing that an ethical person does by his own choice."<sup>[68]</sup> "Ethics actually consists of rationality toward the highest level of survival for the individual, the future race, the group, Mankind and the other dynamics taken up collectively. Ethics are reason. Man's greatest weapon is his reason."<sup>[69]</sup> According to Scientology, various ethical states or "conditions" represent one's degree of success and delineate a sequence of steps to improve that condition of existence.<sup>[70]</sup> From best to worst, these "conditions" are Power, Affluence, Normal, Emergency, Danger, Non-Existence, Liability, Doubt, Enemy, Treason and Confusion. Scientologists are expected to use statistical measurement to assess "measurement of survival potential,"<sup>[71]</sup> where a downward trend could identify an 'emergency condition' and an upward trend could identify a 'affluence condition'.<sup>[72]</sup> According to The Scientology Handbook, the Scientology method of statistics can and should be applied to individuals, groups and organizations inside and outside of Scientology.<sup>[73]</sup>
Prof. Stephen A. Kent quotes Hubbard as pronouncing that "the purpose of ethics is to remove counter-intentions from the environment. Having accomplished that, the purpose becomes to remove other intentionedness from the environment." What this translates to, according to Kent, is "a peculiar brand of morality that uniquely benefitted [the Church of Scientology]. . . . In plain English, the purpose of Scientology ethics is to eliminate opponents, then eliminate people's interests in things other than Scientology."<sup>[74]</sup>
http://
GMJ
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Yeah I think a cult generally requires more out of a person in order to justify and practice their beliefs, whereas generally established religions require less resources.
There's also some subjectivity involved, to be honest. I'm as atheist as one can be, but cults get a knee-jerk reaction out of me that just screams "crazy."
There's also some subjectivity involved, to be honest. I'm as atheist as one can be, but cults get a knee-jerk reaction out of me that just screams "crazy."
#1_War_Poet_ForLife
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Frankly, it should not be up to any one person or group to deem if an idea is a cult or a religion. Someone could go around saying Hinduism is a cult, and I would not care. Hey, that's their prerogative, let them believe what they want.
If followers believe it's a religion, it's a religion to them. There's nothing we can or should do to change their minds (unless, of course, they are doing something dangerous or detrimental to society).
If followers believe it's a religion, it's a religion to them. There's nothing we can or should do to change their minds (unless, of course, they are doing something dangerous or detrimental to society).
Chutney
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane)</div><div class='quotemain'>3) If you stood at the edge of the universe and took one step outward, where would you be?</div>
You'll end up at the exact opposite end of the universe. Like in Asteroids.
You'll end up at the exact opposite end of the universe. Like in Asteroids.
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