OT Selective cancel culture

[Natebishop3]

All of this outrage at historical figures like Thomas Jefferson.

How many of the protestors own iphones? How many own Nikes? It's really easy to ask "how could you support slavery back then" while many of these people are actively supporting slavery and child labor RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

If you're gonna be woke, get the fuck woke about what's going on in China and actually put your money where your mouth is.

 

[Propagandist]

All of this outrage at historical figures like Thomas Jefferson.

How many of the protestors own iphones? How many own Nikes? It's really easy to ask "how could you support slavery back then" while many of these people are actively supporting slavery and child labor RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

If you're gonna be woke, get the fuck woke about what's going on in China and actually put your money where your mouth is.

One step at time...

And I think it's dangerous ground to go around comparing and contrasting atrocities.

 

[Natebishop3]

One step at time...

And I think it's dangerous ground to go around comparing and contrasting atrocities.

I don’t like blatant hypocrisy though.

I don’t really care if it’s dangerous ground.

 

[Propagandist]

I don’t like blatant hypocrisy though.

I don’t really care if it’s dangerous ground.

Shall we rank holocausts?

It sort of reminds me a the mothers in the 80s that said, "Clean your plate! There are children starving in Ethiopia!" It's too abstract to be meaningful.

Besides, what's happening right now, is happening right now, in our streets and in front of our faces. And it is an American problem. It's pertinent to us, Americans.

To me, it seems, you just don't like what's happening.

 

[Minstrel]

I don't really think the position of, "Unless you divest yourself of all accoutrements of society, you're not allowed to protest anything" makes a lot of sense. Yes, there are a lot of problematic issues with our global society, many of which leak into all the many products and services we use and arguably need. It's good to be cognizant of that and make decisions where you can to minimize that harmful impact, but the idea that unless you're completely divorced from all the negative realities of globalism (which is probably unrealistic to actually implement), you can't try to make a positive impact on anything means that no one should ever try to make a positive impact, because no one can solve all the world's ills in one fell swoop nor can the vast majority of people unplug entirely from global society. I definitely reject that idea. This just seems like another formulation of "If you can't solve everything, you're a hypocrite for trying to solve anything" that many people, largely conservatives, have been saying for generations.

 

[Natebishop3]

Shall we rank holocausts?

It sort of reminds me a the mothers in the 80s that said, "Clean your plate! There are children starving in Ethiopia!" It's too abstract to be meaningful.

Besides, what's happening right now, is happening right now, in our streets and in front of our faces. And it is an American problem. It's pertinent to us, Americans.

To me, it seems, you just don't like what's happening.

We aren’t talking about the same thing. I’m not talking about protesting police brutality. I’m talking about tearing down statues of Thomas Jefferson. There hasn’t been a slave in the United States in 150+ years but there are slaves in China building shit for Americans right now. I’m talking about hypocrites.

 

[wizenheimer]

could there be some confusion between hypocrisy and inconsistency?

what level of a carbon footprint should somebody have before they are allowed to comment on global warming?

if somebody is using the issue of sweatshop labor to bludgeon "woke" people, should all their posts be searched to see how many times they advocated for more PPE for health care workers....and if they haven't, do they get censured for their own hypocrisy?

as a carpenter, am I no longer allowed to argue in favor of preserving old-growth forests?

slavery; child labor; sweatshops....they are symptoms of capitalism's triumph over justice. Maybe the real hypocrisy is ignoring the cause

 

[Natebishop3]

could there be some confusion between hypocrisy and inconsistency?

what level of a carbon footprint should somebody have before they are allowed to comment on global warming?

if somebody is using the issue of sweatshop labor to bludgeon "woke" people, should all their posts be searched to see how many times they advocated for more PPE for health care workers....and if they haven't, do they get censured for their own hypocrisy?

as a carpenter, am I no longer allowed to argue in favor of preserving old-growth forests?

slavery; child labor; sweatshops....they are symptoms of capitalism's triumph over justice. Maybe the real hypocrisy is ignoring the cause

Those aren't the same thing. Everything you mentioned is a current event.

I'm talking about condemning people from a past long gone, while simultaneously participating in a present that I think people will look back on in fifty years with shame.

I look at our founding fathers in a realistic light. The men had flaws, but what they created is still in place as one of the best examples of democracy. We can't change the past. It's gone. I look at a guy like Thomas Jefferson, a man who owned slaves, but also wrote some of the most profound and progressive words at the beginning of our country. If he was born today, would he have supported slavery? Of course not.

Protesting to change police brutality is one thing. That's something that we can actively affect. But if you want to actively protest about slavery, you might as well start burning Apple stores and Nike shoes.

 

[wizenheimer]

I look at our founding fathers in a realistic light. The men had flaws,
.

maybe extend the same courtesy to people alive today?

 

[Natebishop3]

maybe extend the same courtesy to people alive today?

What does that even mean?

 

[Natebishop3]

o me, it seems, you just don't like what's happening.

Also, this is a bullshit fucking post. I'm so tired of you people with your "if you're not 100% with us, you're 100% against us." I see it in every form of leftist garbage and it's a huge reason why there's a massive divide in this country.

 

[RR7]

Also, this is a bullshit fucking post. I'm so tired of you people with your "if you're not 100% with us, you're 100% against us." I see it in every form of leftist garbage and it's a huge reason why there's a massive divide in this country.

Isn't that basically what you're doing with the criticism of protesters?

 

[Propagandist]

Also, this is a bullshit fucking post. I'm so tired of you people with your "if you're not 100% with us, you're 100% against us." I see it in every form of leftist garbage and it's a huge reason why there's a massive divide in this country.

I think I'm being much more balanced than that. I'm just saying people don't have the bandwidth to audit every aspect of their lives for signs of hypocrisy, ESPECIALLY when we are in the throngs of a revolution of sorts.

And your reaction certainly speaks volumes in regards to your position, I'd say.

As to the divide. This is a cultural fight, but still I blame much of the divide on the war on knowledge. We live in a country where the word intellectual is a bad thing, where science is looked upon with suspicion. When you are forced to debate reality, you're going to fight. "Look at the numbers" or "reference the data" shouldn't be seen as fighting words, but rather a foundational place where we can meet to learn and discuss.

 

[Natebishop3]

Isn't that basically what you're doing with the criticism of protesters?

You're going to have to do better than that. Explain how it's the same thing.

 

[Natebishop3]

And your reaction certainly speaks volumes in regards to your position, I'd say.

Oh yeah? Why don't you tell me how I feel about the protest as a whole?

 

[Propagandist]

Oh yeah? Why don't you tell me how I feel about the protest as a whole?

Uh...no, thank you. Why don't you tell me how I feel about child labor?

This is not personal to me. You made a statement, I responded, and you went off in a weird way. I'm fine with it. I don't know you and you don't know me.

I do know, however, that by your criteria, there are maybe zero people in the world who aren't hypocrites.

I will also say you ignore the pertinent responses to your posts, which is super dissatisfying.

 

[Natebishop3]

Uh...no, thank you. Why don't you tell me how I feel about child labor?

This is not personal to me. You made a statement, I responded, and you went off in a weird way. I'm fine with it. I don't know you and you don't know me.

I do know, however, that by your criteria, there are maybe zero people in the world who aren't hypocrites.

I will also say you ignore the pertinent responses to your posts, which is super dissatisfying.

Because they ignore the point of the post and try to expand the conversation the entire protest at hand, and that's not what I'm talking about.

People who are actively out ripping down statues of slave owners are also actively out supporting slavery. It's a pretty fucking clear and concise message.

 

[RR7]

Because they ignore the point of the post and try to expand the conversation the entire protest at hand, and that's not what I'm talking about.

People who are actively out ripping down statues of slave owners are also actively out supporting slavery. It's a pretty fucking clear and concise message.

So basically all of us actively support slavery?

 

[Natebishop3]

So basically all of us actively support slavery?

Yup. We are. And I know it's fucked up. But I'm also not out in the street pulling down statues and screaming about slavery that happened 150 years ago, while there's slavery going on right now. And if we really wanted to do something about it, we could. We could boycott, we could put sanctions on China. We could demand change. But we don't.

How is that any different than the people who stood by and did nothing during slavery in America?

 

[RR7]

Yup. We are. And I know it's fucked up. But I'm also not out in the street pulling down statues and screaming about slavery that happened 150 years ago, while there's slavery going on right now. And if we really wanted to do something about it, we could. We could boycott, we could put sanctions on China. We could demand change. But we don't.

How is that any different than the people who stood by and did nothing during slavery in America?

Why aren't you doing anything about it? Do you like actively supporting slavery?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I'm making my own smartphone.

 

[SportsAndWhine]

All of this outrage at historical figures like Thomas Jefferson.

How many of the protestors own iphones? How many own Nikes? It's really easy to ask "how could you support slavery back then" while many of these people are actively supporting slavery and child labor RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

If you're gonna be woke, get the fuck woke about what's going on in China and actually put your money where your mouth is.

You’re absolutely right, there is no consumption that is ethical under capitalism, because there is no production that is ethical under capitalism.

If workers were given recompense equal to the value of their labor, without the coercion of a boss threatening loss of employment or health care (through employment-based insurance), then products would be ethically produced, and this could be ethically consumed.

I assume you’re calling for a system that allows for ethical consumption through ethical production, because otherwise it sounds like you’re just telling everyone protesting to shut up and get back to work. Like, “the system we are all in is shit but quit complaining about it” is a really defeated attitude to have, so I don’t think you’d have that. You’re not a slave, you’re free... you’re not scared of losing your job or health insurance, right?

 

[Natebishop3]

Why aren't you doing anything about it? Do you like actively supporting slavery?

Not really. No I don't. But like I said, I'm just highlighting the hypocrisy of tearing down a Thomas Jefferson statue because he was a slave owner, while simultaneously supporting slavery going on right now. Turning a blind eye. Isn't that what people are talking about? White washing our history? Well our American consumerism is also a black eye that will one day need to be white washed.

 

[SportsAndWhine]

Not really. No I don't. But like I said, I'm just highlighting the hypocrisy of tearing down a Thomas Jefferson statue because he was a slave owner, while simultaneously supporting slavery going on right now. Turning a blind eye. Isn't that what people are talking about? White washing our history? Well our American consumerism is also a black eye that will one day need to be white washed.

Agreed, hopefully capitalist consumerism will be viewed in retrospect as a mistake we learned from and moved beyond.

 

[Natebishop3]

Agreed, hopefully capitalist consumerism will be viewed in retrospect as a mistake we learned from and moved beyond.

I suspect that in 50 years our grandchildren will ask us how we could so blindly support the mistreatment of other human beings. Much like the protests today.

 

[RR7]

Why aren't you doing something about it instead of just bitching about other people doing a little though? At least they're out doing SOMETHING to protest previous injustices.

 

[SportsAndWhine]

I suspect that in 50 years our grandchildren will ask us how we could so blindly support the mistreatment of other human beings. Much like the protests today.

Hopefully by then, we will have actually made progress. Everything about our current system of making and taking is abhorrent in some way or other.

All we can do to justify ourselves right now is to use what we have consumed unethically towards ethical means: filming police brutality on a smartphone with the goal of abolishing it is making the best of a bad situation.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Why aren't you doing something about it instead of just bitching about other people doing a little though? At least they're out doing SOMETHING to protest previous injustices.

Talking about it is the first step in doing something.

We can all see problems in the world, talking about them is how we find solutions.

 

[Propagandist]

Because they ignore the point of the post and try to expand the conversation the entire protest at hand, and that's not what I'm talking about.

People who are actively out ripping down statues of slave owners are also actively out supporting slavery. It's a pretty fucking clear and concise message.

I didn’t realize there were separate movements going on. Gtfo.

The country is anti-terrorist and yet sold arms to Saudia Arabia. Pro-Life people don’t often mention capital punishment. Trump said he’d drain the swamp then hired lobbyists and the like to important posts. Yeah, no shit there are things that don’t line up well.

I think you’re being silly and comparing the two is insulting and only detracting from the topic at hand.

 

[SportsAndWhine]

I didn’t realize there were separate movements going on. Gtfo.

The country is anti-terrorist and yet sold arms to Saudia Arabia. Pro-Life people don’t often mention capital punishment. Trump said he’d drain the swamp then hired lobbyists and the like to important posts. Yeah, no shit there are things that don’t line up well.

I think you’re being silly and comparing the two is insulting and only detracting from the topic at hand.

It reads like a bad faith argument, because if you hang around leftist twitter, people are reminding us every day that “this isn’t where we end... the phone you filmed this on was made by slaves, with materials gained by slavery”... like, people who are pulling the statues down know what the fuck is up with their own culpability. But it’s one act of revolution at a time until we can finally have enough power as a collective to demand that our cell phones be made ethically. We are so powerless as workers and consumers that we just gotta start somewhere and pulling down symbols glorifying slavery is a place to start.