OT Selective cancel culture

[Natebishop3]

I didn’t realize there were separate movements going on. Gtfo.

The country is anti-terrorist and yet sold arms to Saudia Arabia. Pro-Life people don’t often mention capital punishment. Trump said he’d drain the swamp then hired lobbyists and the like to important posts. Yeah, no shit there are things that don’t line up well.

I think you’re being silly and comparing the two is insulting and only detracting from the topic at hand.

Good. I don't care if I insult you.

If you're insulted then I'm probably talking about you. Isn't that the whole point? To feel uncomfortable right now?

There are absolutely separate movements going on. Different people with different agendas. ANTIFA, anti-police brutality, black equality, or do you agree with the people who burned down a Wendy's simply because that's where a black man was shot by police?

 

[Propagandist]

Good. I don't care if I insult you.

If you're insulted then I'm probably talking about you. Isn't that the whole point? To feel uncomfortable right now?

There are absolutely separate movements going on. Different people with different agendas. ANTIFA, anti-police brutality, black equality, or do you agree with the people who burned down a Wendy's simply because that's where a black man was shot by police?

What is happening to our country, amirite?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

or do you agree with the people who burned down a Wendy's simply because that's where a black man was shot by police?

Video shows it was one unidentified white woman who set the Wendy's on fire. What her reason for doing this is unknown at this time.

 

[Minstrel]

I agree with the idea that we all implicitly support slavery by not having put sufficient restraints on capitalism yet still being part of that capitalistic system. I don't agree with the idea that because we all have that culpability, we can't criticize other wrong-doing without being hypocrites.

 

[Natebishop3]

Video shows it was one unidentified white woman who set the Wendy's on fire. What her reason for doing this is unknown at this time.

They clearly shorted her on her order.

 

[SportsAndWhine]

Video shows it was one unidentified white woman who set the Wendy's on fire. What her reason for doing this is unknown at this time.

Reminds me of the videos of cops spray painting ACAB on their own vehicles

 

[Natebishop3]

I agree with the idea that we all implicitly support slavery by not having put sufficient restraints on capitalism yet still being part of that capitalistic system. I don't agree with the idea that because we all have that culpability, we can't criticize other wrong-doing without being hypocrites.

My point is, Thomas Jefferson isn't remembered as a founder because of his owning slaves. He's remembered because of his work on the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. So if we're going to tear down his statue and brand him a slave owner, how is that different from pretending that we don't all have a part in slavery today?

 

[SportsAndWhine]

My point is, Thomas Jefferson isn't remembered as a founder because of his owning slaves. He's remembered because of his work on the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. So if we're going to tear down his statue and brand him a slave owner, how is that different from pretending that we don't all have a part in slavery today?

Maybe he should be remembered that way.

And I’m saying the people who tear down the statues aren’t pretending they‘re not a part of a system built on and sustained by slavery. They aren’t missing the point. Nobody who is tearing down a statue of Thomas Jefferson thinks it is anything but a statement of future intent.

 

[Natebishop3]

Maybe he should be remembered that way.

So we take all the bold and amazing things that the founders did during a time when slavery was legal and unfortunately common, and we toss out the good and only remember the bad. Meanwhile we celebrate places like Rome and Egypt and Greece because of their historical significance, while disregarding the fact that slavery played a massive role in their empires.

There are good things we can take from history and bad things we can take from history. We should take the good AND the bad. Thomas Jefferson and the founders were brilliant men who helped build a country that allows us the right to protest. But to completely toss it all away seems very short sited and wrong.

There has to be a middle ground.

 

[RR7]

So we take all the bold and amazing things that the founders did during a time when slavery was legal and unfortunately common, and we toss out the good and only remember the bad. Meanwhile we celebrate places like Rome and Egypt and Greece because of their historical significance, while disregarding the fact that slavery played a massive role in their empires.

There are good things we can take from history and bad things we can take from history. We should take the good AND the bad. Thomas Jefferson and the founders were brilliant men who helped build a country that allows us the right to protest. But to completely toss it all away seems very short sited and wrong.

There has to be a middle ground.

They'r not wiping the memory of past slave owners away, just preferring to not have their names and faces on public buildings. They can still be learned about.

 

[SportsAndWhine]

They'r not wiping the memory of past slave owners away, just preferring to not have their names and faces on public buildings. They can still be learned about.

yeah, how about glorifying none of them?

 

[riverman]

put your money where your mouth is.

gun and ammo sales are way the fuck up....this is bad, bad advice

 

[riverman]

If you're boycotting all foreign made goods you better shut off your internet connection and sell your computer....if you don't want to be hypocritical that is....also your batteries, clocks, digital displays..hey...here's an idea....these folks have always been woke about the evils we consume! You could become Amish!

 

[Minstrel]

My point is, Thomas Jefferson isn't remembered as a founder because of his owning slaves. He's remembered because of his work on the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. So if we're going to tear down his statue and brand him a slave owner, how is that different from pretending that we don't all have a part in slavery today?

Because he was a slave owner. All culpabilities aren't equal. Yes, you and I implicitly support a global regime that allows for various types of slavery and mistreatment. Jefferson explicitly owned people. I'd call that a significant difference. It's like saying we're all murderers because we, as a society, allowed for a police force that could lead to a police officer murdering George Floyd. We're not all murderers, just as we're not all slave owners. We all have some implication in allowing for systems in which people can be murdered or enslaved. There's a big difference.

It's also not as simple as "he's remembered for this, not this" or "he should be remembered for this, not this." He is, and should be, remembered for various things, some good and some bad. Unlike Confederate figures, who's entire relevance to history is their defense of the institution of slavery, I'm okay with a statue for Thomas Jefferson. I'm also okay with people who feel that no slave owner should be memorialized, even if he did other positive things. Those people can legitimately feel that way even if their iPhone came to be due to shitty outcomes in our form of capitalism.

 

[SportsAndWhine]

I'm also okay with people who feel that no slave owner should be memorialized, even if he did other positive things. Those people can legitimately feel that way even if their iPhone came to be due to shitty outcomes in our form of capitalism.

and again, and I can’t stress this enough, nobody tearing down sculptures of slave owners is going to defend a sculpture of Steve Jobs or whatever.

 

[wizenheimer]

What does that even mean?

you said the "founding fathers" were flawed

I suggested that if you extended that same allowance to everybody, you know, that people have flaws; for instance: inconsistency in perspectives, then your judgement of others might not be so fucking harsh

* somebody could be valid and justified in wanting old growth forests saved....even though they have a cedar deck
* somebody could validly want salmon habitat saved, even though they turn the lights on at night
* somebody could honestly be in favor of reducing global warming, even though they drive to the store twice a week

and of course, somebody could be opposed to slavery even if they wear sneakers made in Indonesia. More to the point, somebody could be intensely & justifiably opposed to racism even though they are still a work in progress on clearing their own prejudices and bias

 

[e_blazer]

I have mixed feelings about statues of historical figures. On the one hand...slavery was a horrific institution and honoring anyone involved with it seems wrong. On the other hand, history is history. Sanitizing it by removing monuments that remind us of the past doesn't seem quite right either. Forty-one of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence were at some point in their lives slave owners. Carried to the extreme, do we insist that Egypt tear down the pyramids because slaves built them? It seems to me that leaving statues in place of those who have had a significant impact on our history, but placing informational signage next to them explaining accomplishments and failings, especially including slave ownership, would be one way to go. I also think that there should be much more effort spent on memorializing the contributions of Black people and other racial and ethnic groups. Education and understanding, rather than use of a magic eraser, are usually a better road towards growing as a society.

 

[wizenheimer]

Forty-one of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence were at some point in their lives slave owners.

and George Floyd was killed 254 years after that was signed....254 years and we are still a fuck of a long ways from a more perfect union

if white America doesn't want statues of Jefferson torn down, then it should have done a much better job of making black America and other minorities full participants in the democracy. And it should have happened decades ago

but it hasn't, and now, another black man has been killed a couple of weeks after George Floyd was killed. So yeah, there's plenty of anger and outrage and white Americans, once again, have to decide if the symbols of freedom, like statues, are more important than securing freedom for every American. And if honoring history means a lot of Americans feel dishonored, another choice will have to be made

 

[RR7]

I have mixed feelings about statues of historical figures. On the one hand...slavery was a horrific institution and honoring anyone involved with it seems wrong. On the other hand, history is history. Sanitizing it by removing monuments that remind us of the past doesn't seem quite right either. Forty-one of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence were at some point in their lives slave owners. Carried to the extreme, do we insist that Egypt tear down the pyramids because slaves built them? It seems to me that leaving statues in place of those who have had a significant impact on our history, but placing informational signage next to them explaining accomplishments and failings, especially including slave ownership, would be one way to go. I also think that there should be much more effort spent on memorializing the contributions of Black people and other racial and ethnic groups. Education and understanding, rather than use of a magic eraser, are usually a better road towards growing as a society.

I think it's easy to say keep them up and put a sign up about who they were and what they stood for. But I then try to think of it in the eyes of someone who's ancestors were owned by that person, or thinking of someone like, say, Robert E. Lee, someone that fought to make sure that people that looked like you weren't allowed your freedom. Or thinking of a flag that flew for that same reason. A little sign that says RObert E. Lee was a piece of shit isn't going to make me feel better when I go to that park, or drive down that street, etc.

 

[barfo]

There's no rule that everything that has ever been has to be preserved. Shit gets torn down every day because it's worn out, unneeded, in the way, out of fashion, etc.

It doesn't destroy history to take down a statue of some long-dead dude. There's actually very little history that can be learned from a sculpture of a guy on a horse. Books are better for that.

barfo

 

[e_blazer]

and George Floyd was killed 254 years after that was signed....254 years and we are still a fuck of a long ways from a more perfect union

if white America doesn't want statues of Jefferson torn down, then it should have done a much better job of making black America and other minorities full participants in the democracy. And it should have happened decades ago

but it hasn't, and now, another black man has been killed a couple of weeks after George Floyd was killed. So yeah, there's plenty of anger and outrage and white Americans, once again, have to decide if the symbols of freedom, like statues, are more important than securing freedom for every American. And if honoring history means a lot of Americans feel dishonored, another choice will have to be made

Wow. That's a massive amount of righteous indignation to dump on a post that was in no way minimizing racial issues in this country. If you think tearing down some old statues is going to make a hill of beans difference in the long run, have at it. Burn down all of the old plantation houses while your at it. The White House and Capitol building were built using slaves. Burn them down too.

 

[wizenheimer]

Wow. That's a massive amount of righteous indignation to dump on a post that was in no way minimizing racial issues in this country. If you think tearing down some old statues is going to make a hill of beans difference in the long run, have at it. Burn down all of the old plantation houses while your at it. The White House and Capitol building were built using slaves. Burn them down too.

maybe I got on a soapbox...I don't know....sorry...but this thread didn't start at your post so there was some momentum involved, at least there was in my mind

I think my underlying point was that concern about a Jefferson statue seems kind of irrelevant at this point. There is going to be some collateral damage when the anger and outrage is so strong and so deep...and so justified.

it's pretty ironic that some will say "but what about our history" when confederate monuments are being dismantled because the act of dismantling them is about as rooted in our history as any act could be

 

[Hoopguru]

The reforms need to start at the top of each and every state. Gov, Mayors, Police commissioners, legislation. It doesn't have to be, if we don't do what the fed says we don't get no money.
So, are we in Oregon willing to hold our leadership responsible? Should be easy here as we our primarily democrat.

 

[e_blazer]

maybe I got on a soapbox...I don't know....sorry...but this thread didn't start at your post so there was some momentum involved, at least there was in my mind

I think my underlying point was that concern about a Jefferson statue seems kind of irrelevant at this point. There is going to be some collateral damage when the anger and outrage is so strong and so deep...and so justified.

it's pretty ironic that some will say "but what about our history" when confederate monuments are being dismantled because the act of dismantling them is about as rooted in our history as any act could be

Emotions are justifiably high right now. I think because of that reason now isn’t the best time to debate how we deal with our much less than perfect past. I think we also need to be aware that our views as a people evolve over time. I can imagine a time in the not too distant future where people might be debating our current civilization and find some of our ways pretty egregious. “Tear down that statue of Obama!” “Whaat? He was the first Black president and a great man.” “M-Fer drove a car and burned gas to heat his houses. Houses! He had more than 1 and he FLEW in between them just for personal pleasure!”

 

[Natebishop3]

Emotions are justifiably high right now. I think because of that reason now isn’t the best time to debate how we deal with our much less than perfect past. I think we also need to be aware that our views as a people evolve over time. I can imagine a time in the not too distant future where people might be debating our current civilization and find some of our ways pretty egregious. “Tear down that statue of Obama!” “Whaat? He was the first Black president and a great man.” “M-Fer drove a car and burned gas to heat his houses. Houses! He had more than 1 and he FLEW in between them just for personal pleasure!”

No, I really think future generations will vilify us and all our leaders for farming out our slave labor. It's the biggest black eye on this generation.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

No, I really think future generations will vilify us and all our leaders for farming out our slave labor. It's the biggest black eye on this generation.

I think the superpowers arming the other countries around the world is our biggest black eye. We're exporting pain, suffering, and death on a massive scale.

 

[Natebishop3]

I think the superpowers arming the other countries around the world is our biggest black eye. We're exporting pain, suffering, and death on a massive scale.

Well shiiiiiiit son, that's just good old fashioned American exports. We only make one thing in this country anymore anyway

 

[SportsAndWhine]

No, I really think future generations will vilify us and all our leaders for farming out our slave labor. It's the biggest black eye on this generation.

The worst of many, yeah...

 

[SportsAndWhine]

Emotions are justifiably high right now. I think because of that reason now isn’t the best time to debate how we deal with our much less than perfect past. I think we also need to be aware that our views as a people evolve over time. I can imagine a time in the not too distant future where people might be debating our current civilization and find some of our ways pretty egregious. “Tear down that statue of Obama!” “Whaat? He was the first Black president and a great man.” “M-Fer drove a car and burned gas to heat his houses. Houses! He had more than 1 and he FLEW in between them just for personal pleasure!”

Yes owning two houses when people lack housing is unethical but also he bombed many civilians. All of our living presidents (with the possible exception of Carter) should be tried as war criminals, right along with any cop who used teargas.

 

[barfo]

Emotions are justifiably high right now. I think because of that reason now isn’t the best time to debate how we deal with our much less than perfect past. I think we also need to be aware that our views as a people evolve over time. I can imagine a time in the not too distant future where people might be debating our current civilization and find some of our ways pretty egregious. “Tear down that statue of Obama!” “Whaat? He was the first Black president and a great man.” “M-Fer drove a car and burned gas to heat his houses. Houses! He had more than 1 and he FLEW in between them just for personal pleasure!”

And that's fine if those future people conclude that. It's their absolutely their choice to make.

Just as it is fine for current people to make judgements about the past.

barfo