OT Sell me on a better plan

[oldfisherman]

What's bad is the "hero on a white horse."

Darn, forgot which century I was in.

"Hero on a rainbow unicorn"

 

[oldfisherman]

Good point. So let’s just say in the last 60 years.

But what about the substance of my argument?

I'll try to be as nice as I can.

Your argument takes selected bits of info, from one side, much of which is very debatable.

Both parties are guilty of this type of misinformstion campaign.

I believe that half the truth, is a whole lie.

Now, OB asked for future plans, not a history lesson. What do you have?

 

[Stevenson]

I'll try to be as nice as I can.

Your argument takes selected bits of info, from one side, much of which is very debatable.

Both parties are guilty of this type of misinformstion campaign.

I believe that half the truth, is a whole lie.

Now, OB asked for future plans, not a history lesson. What do you have?

I gave OB a thoughtful, factual answer. That is how I see things. You think it's half truth and debatable? OK, then prove it. Let's see you spend a half an hour crafting a factual answer.

What do you have?

 

[Hoopguru]

Okie Dokie, here's a few objective action tactics from a libertarian's point of view.
1- implement an objective measurable plan, to balance the budget.
2- Reduce the size of government through consolidation of agencies or getting rid of certain ones all together. You cant convince me they all are justified by their existence.
3- Promote and pass congressional term limits that make since. 12 years or so.
4- Bring troops home from Afghanistan and middle east. Keep sea and air presence where needed.
5-Continue to allow corp. tax breaks that allow US mfg's to be competitive.
6-Have a progressive tax structure that makes since to support a smaller leaner government.
7- An effort to change and make equally fair appointments SCJ's. Have equal representation. 15 year term limits if possible.
8. Evaluate and improve where needed all trade agreements.
9.Continue to expect other countries to pull their weight in support of NATO and UN. We don't need finance alone all the efforts.
10.Push and require congress with timeline, to come up with immigration plan and security measures.
11.Create a bipartisan effort to bring the cost of health care and RX down. A balanced approach.
12.Allow States more autonomy with regards, to certain laws pot, guns, abortion ect.
13. Keep America a capitalistic country and protect personal liberty, allow States more power, encourage human enterprise and help citizens from becoming dependent of welfare.

Just a few and obviously have missed some good ones i'm sure.

 

[oldfisherman]

I gave OB a thoughtful, factual answer. That is how I see things. You think it's half truth and debatable? OK, then prove it. Let's see you spend a half an hour crafting a factual answer.

What do you have?

You did a very good job, a well written thoughtful response. But...

You keep asking me questions your not going to like the answers to.. I don't want a war with you, I enjoy your opinions. But again you asked for it.

Yes, Clinton did balance the budget, but, Obama followed that up by doubling the national dept.

Just one example of half truths about our prosperity.

My opinion. Judging prosperity timelines is a murky job. Most actions carry over to future presidents, sometimes for decades.

Often presidents move away from campaign promises and behave like their opponent. Based on who they owe favors to.

Often outside uncontrollable events have the biggest affect on short term prosperity.

Bottom line concerning prosperity. I don't think it matters which party our president belongs to.

 

[oldfisherman]

Okie Dokie, here's a few objective action tactics from a libertarian's point of view.
1- implement an objective measurable plan, to balance the budget.
2- Reduce the size of government through consolidation of agencies or getting rid of certain ones all together. You cant convince me they all are justified by their existence.
3- Promote and pass congressional term limits that make since. 12 years or so.
4- Bring troops home from Afghanistan and middle east. Keep sea and air presence where needed.
5-Continue to allow corp. tax breaks that allow US mfg's to be competitive.
6-Have a progressive tax structure that makes since to support a smaller leaner government.
7- An effort to change and make equally fair appointments SCJ's. Have equal representation. 15 year term limits if possible.
8. Evaluate and improve where needed all trade agreements.
9.Continue to expect other countries to pull their weight in support of NATO and UN. We don't need finance alone all the efforts.
10.Push and require congress with timeline, to come up with immigration plan and security measures.
11.Create a bipartisan effort to bring the cost of health care and RX down. A balanced approach.
12.Allow States more autonomy with regards, to certain laws pot, guns, abortion ect.
13. Keep America a capitalistic country and protect personal liberty, allow States more power, encourage human enterprise and help citizens from becoming dependent of welfare.

Just a few and obviously have missed some good ones i'm sure.

Like it. Have one to add.

I agree with the dems the national minimum wage needs to increase. Not only has it failed to improved the living conditions of entry level job workers. It has failed to keep up with inflation.

 

[Orion Bailey]

it’s impossible for me to respond to you with answers to your questions because anyone who says (basically) “yeah he’s morally bankrupt but I still need a reason”, is not worth even debating. He’s a “cancer” to our society but you still need reasons? Fuck that.

Really? So please explain why not worthy of debating. Do you know for a fact the Dems candidate is not morally bankrupt?

How do I know the alternative isn't a BIGGER cancer?

I'm sorry, but in life and in warfare most would rather deal with the enemy they know, than the one they don't know. If you aren't willing to provide an alternative option, ideology, then how can I take you serious? Id prefer to go with the evil I know, than the one I don't.

so your stance is....I told you he is morally corrupt and if you vote for him you are ******, but yet you aren't willing to offer an alternative to vote for?

Come on man...I've read enough of you to know you are more intelligent than this stance you are taking.

Many people think Jimmy Carter was corrupt and he was a Dem. Should
I then check history and anyone who voted for Jimmy has major morality issues and is not worth the time to explain anything at all? Did you vote for Carter?


Your stubbornness is not helping anything at all, whether you think so or not. Sorry.

 

[calvin natt]

Really? So please explain why not worthy of debating. Do you know for a fact the Dems candidate is not morally bankrupt?

How do I know the alternative isn't a BIGGER cancer?

I'm sorry, but in life and in warfare most would rather deal with the enemy they know, than the one they don't know. If you aren't willing to provide an alternative option, ideology, then how can I take you serious? Id prefer to go with the evil I know, than the one I don't.

so your stance is....I told you he is morally corrupt and if you vote for him you are ******, but yet you aren't willing to offer an alternative to vote for?

Come on man...I've read enough of you to know you are more intelligent than this stance you are taking.

Many people think Jimmy Carter was corrupt and he was a Dem. Should
I then check history and anyone who voted for Jimmy has major morality issues and is not worth the time to explain anything at all? Did you vote for Carter?


Your stubbornness is not helping anything at all, whether you think so or not. Sorry.

im not “telling you he’s morally bankrupt”. You know it and stated it and he has shown it as FACT. But you need reasons still. We all have demons and no one is perfect, none of the candidates. But if you think they are the same as him, then debating and convincing is pointless because your starting point is so off-kilter that we will not ever agree. This is like someone (to me) saying “my wife has sex with my neighbor but I still need a reason to be with someone else”. No. No you don’t. She has given you enough reason. If you think that reason isn’t enough, what use is it to me to sell you on “well, she does spend a little too much at Nordstrom and she tends to run late when you go out”. This man has done enough, so much, that if you are still waiting to he sold on someone else, I’m not convinced you actually want to be convinced. This is like when ABM asked this question three months ago and everyone came back with their answers and he was like “nah, not working, he is still my guy”. Total waste of Fucking time.

 

[Orion Bailey]

im not “telling you he’s morally bankrupt”. You know it and stated it and he has shown it as FACT. But you need reasons still. We all have demons and no one is perfect, none of the candidates. But if you think they are the same as him, then debating and convincing is pointless because your starting point is so off-kilter that we will not ever agree. This is like someone (to me) saying “my wife has sex with my neighbor but I still need a reason to be with someone else”. No. No you don’t. She has given you enough reason. If you think that reason isn’t enough, what use is it to me to sell you on “well, she does spend a little too much at Nordstrom and she tends to run late when you go out”. This man has done enough, so much, that if you are still waiting to he sold on someone else, I’m not convinced you actually want to be convinced. This is like when ABM asked this question three months ago and everyone came back with their answers and he was like “nah, not working, he is still my guy”. Total waste of Fucking time.

Whoa whoa whoa. Who said I need reason still to prove he is immoral? I never said or asked that.

The wife thing is not valid, because i would leave and be single We cant leave the office empty. Apples to oranges. Im not goign to vote for a Dem just because the current pres lacks morals when I don't know who the dems have to offer up and have nothing to platform on other than Trump is immoral. If you dont get that, them im sorry.

In your analogy, the ship is evil and we need to leave, but we don't have a ship to leave to. Do you leave the ship and enter space to just die, or know the ship is evil, but wait for a livable alternative?


Anyhow., Not going down this road with you. If you arent willing to provide some insight as to why the Dems should be voted for that doesn't include Trump is bad, then you have nothing for me and I have nothing for you.
But lets remember who was the one asking for knowledge and who was the one that denied it because.. FUCK THAT!.... and which stance will get us further in improving our country.....

 

[calvin natt]

Whoa whoa whoa. Who said I need reason still to prove he is immoral? I never said or asked that.

The wife thing is not valid, because i would leave and be single We cant leave the office empty. Apples to oranges. Im not goign to vote for a Dem just because the current pres lacks morals when I don't know who the dems have to offer up and have nothing to platform on other than Trump is immoral. If you dont get that, them im sorry.

In your analogy, the ship is evil and we need to leave, but we don't have a ship to leave to. Do you leave the ship and enter space to just die, or know the ship is evil, but wait for a livable alternative?


Anyhow., Not going down this road with you. If you arent willing to provide some insight as to why the Dems should be voted for that doesn't include Trump is bad, then you have nothing for me and I have nothing for you.
But lets remember who was the one asking for knowledge and who was the one that denied it because.. FUCK THAT!.... and which stance will get us further in improving our country.....

You have to have a moral compass before I can point you in the right direction.

 

[barfo]

Really? So please explain why not worthy of debating. Do you know for a fact the Dems candidate is not morally bankrupt?

How do I know the alternative isn't a BIGGER cancer?

How do you know your mother isn't a serial killer? I mean, she could be, so probably we should lock her up if we are going to lock up Jeffrey Dahmer.

I'm sorry, but in life and in warfare most would rather deal with the enemy they know, than the one they don't know. If you aren't willing to provide an alternative option, ideology, then how can I take you serious? Id prefer to go with the evil I know, than the one I don't.

Sure. In 2016, did you vote for Hillary because she was the evil you knew? Or is this a position that you have invented since then?

Many people think Jimmy Carter was corrupt

Say whuuuut?

barfo

 

[Stevenson]

I find it really interesting @Orion Bailey that you have yet to respond to my answer, or others. One can only conclude that your original post was insincere; you aren't really looking for a better plan.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I find it really interesting @Orion Bailey that you have yet to respond to my answer, or others. One can only conclude that your original post was insincere; you aren't really looking for a better plan.

well them your conclusion would be incorrect. The reason i haven't answered you yet or a couple others is due to a couple things.
My time is limited at work.

the posts i haven't responded to i believe deserve more thought from me as they were valid posts.

the ones i have responded to didn't really offer much regarding my op so they are quick and easy responses.
ill get to you this evening.

 

[Orion Bailey]

You have to have a moral compass before I can point you in the right direction.

really so through this limited deduction you believe i have no morals?

this really isn't going to go anywhere with you is it?
i had higher aspirations than this....

 

[Orion Bailey]

How do you know your mother isn't a serial killer? I mean, she could be, so probably we should lock her up if we are going to lock up Jeffrey Dahmer.



Sure. In 2016, did you vote for Hillary because she was the evil you knew? Or is this a position that you have invented since then?



Say whuuuut?

barfo

Not even sure what you are asking.
Not really interested in a conversation that answers questions with questions.
nor am i interested in a conversation where you pick only the part of my post you choose to acknowledge while ignoring the rest.
Do you have a response to my op?
Or are you just looking to push buttons rather than discuss ?

 

[calvin natt]

really so through this limited deduction you believe i have no morals?

this really isn't going to go anywhere with you is it?
i had higher aspirations than this....

We finally agree

 

[barfo]

Not even sure what you are asking.
Not really interested in a conversation that answers questions with questions.
nor am i interested in a conversation where you pick only the part of my post you choose to acknowledge while ignoring the rest.
Do you have a response to my op?
Or are you just looking to push buttons rather than discuss ?

You have a lot of rules for how other people should post, don't you?

barfo

 

[Orion Bailey]

We finally agree

Actually you are wrong again....

But thanks sooo much for the mature discussion and proving my point in the other threads post.

 

[Orion Bailey]

You have a lot of rules for how other people should post, don't you?

barfo

If you asked me a question and I pointedly skirted the meat of the question to only address the parts I care to, I would expect the same response from you.

You like to answer questions with questions don't you?

You like to omit certain parts of a question to only answer the portion you have an issue with don't you?

See, two can play this game. Man I really expected more from you too.


I have no rules for how someone should post. I DO have rules on how someone should answer my questions however.

Care to answer my OP or just continue this back and forth? I know you are more than capable.

 

[calvin natt]

Actually you are wrong again....

But thanks sooo much for the mature discussion and proving my point in the other threads post.

You’re telling me I am wrong for agreeing with your post? Huh?

 

[barfo]

You like to answer questions with questions don't you?

Don't you?

You like to omit certain parts of a question to only answer the portion you have an issue with don't you?

What's the problem with that?

I DO have rules on how someone should answer my questions however.

Sorry, not bound by your rules.

Care to answer my OP or just continue this back and forth?

We'll see.

barfo

 

[calvin natt]

You have a lot of rules for how other people should post, don't you?

barfo

Guys we are supposed to be selling him on a better plan than Trumps plan. Because he doesn’t have Google and so far nobody is a better option than Trump. We have an uphill climb trying to convince someone that a dumb, morally bankrupt liar is not as good as the Democrat candidates. Maybe the tax cuts that have cost hundreds of billions so we can make the rich richer, or the great Mexican wall, or the tariffs, or the Russian interference or the random bombing of the Iranian are really compelling to him so we have our work cut out for us.

 

[Stevenson]

Guys we are supposed to be selling him on a better plan than Trumps plan. Because he doesn’t have Google and so far nobody is a better option than Trump. We have an uphill climb trying to convince someone that a dumb, morally bankrupt liar is not as good as the Democrat candidates. Maybe the tax cuts that have cost hundreds of billions so we can make the rich richer, or the great Mexican wall, or the tariffs, or the Russian interference or the random bombing of the Iranian are really compelling to him so we have our work cut out for us.

Can I like a post more than once?

 

[yankeesince59]

Think I'm gonna need more popcorn.

 

[Hobbesarable]

Okie Dokie, here's a few objective action tactics from a libertarian's point of view.
1- implement an objective measurable plan, to balance the budget.
2- Reduce the size of government through consolidation of agencies or getting rid of certain ones all together. You cant convince me they all are justified by their existence.
3- Promote and pass congressional term limits that make since. 12 years or so.
4- Bring troops home from Afghanistan and middle east. Keep sea and air presence where needed.
5-Continue to allow corp. tax breaks that allow US mfg's to be competitive.
6-Have a progressive tax structure that makes since to support a smaller leaner government.
7- An effort to change and make equally fair appointments SCJ's. Have equal representation. 15 year term limits if possible.
8. Evaluate and improve where needed all trade agreements.
9.Continue to expect other countries to pull their weight in support of NATO and UN. We don't need finance alone all the efforts.
10.Push and require congress with timeline, to come up with immigration plan and security measures.
11.Create a bipartisan effort to bring the cost of health care and RX down. A balanced approach.
12.Allow States more autonomy with regards, to certain laws pot, guns, abortion ect.
13. Keep America a capitalistic country and protect personal liberty, allow States more power, encourage human enterprise and help citizens from becoming dependent of welfare.

Just a few and obviously have missed some good ones i'm sure.

@Hoopguru , that is a well thought post. I agree and disagree with some of it, but you are one of the few willing to take the OP seriously.

 

[calvin natt]

@Hoopguru , that is a well thought post. I agree and disagree with some of it, but you are one of the few willing to take the OP seriously.

we all took it seriously

 

[Hobbesarable]

we all took it seriously

 

[The Professional Fan]

I hope this isn't too difficult of a "sell" for you

https://itep.org/60-fortune-500-companies-avoided-all-federal-income-tax-in-2018-under-new-tax-law/

60 of the fortune 500 companies didn't pay a cent in taxes under orange fuck stick's tax law. Make them pay their fair share (or more) and use that money to rebuild infrastructure or end hunger in America or a fucking shit ton of things that would make us a better society. Let's just start there.

Or let's not

Ban assault weapons outright.
Rent control.
Term limits.
Make Lobbying a criminal act.
End the electoral college.
Don't elect a con man traitor as president.
Bomb Canada.

 

[calvin natt]

I hope this isn't too difficult of a "sell" for you

https://itep.org/60-fortune-500-companies-avoided-all-federal-income-tax-in-2018-under-new-tax-law/

60 of the fortune 500 companies didn't pay a cent in taxes under orange fuck stick's tax law. Make them pay their fair share (or more) and use that money to rebuild infrastructure or end hunger in America or a fucking shit ton of things that would make us a better society. Let's just start there.

Or let's not

Ban assault weapons outright.
Rent control.
Term limits.
Make Lobbying a criminal act.
End the electoral college.
Don't elect a con man traitor as president.
Bomb Canada.

I dunno. Don’t think that’s convincing enough

 

[Lanny]

Not even sure what you are asking.
Not really interested in a conversation that answers questions with questions.
nor am i interested in a conversation where you pick only the part of my post you choose to acknowledge while ignoring the rest.
Do you have a response to my op?
Or are you just looking to push buttons rather than discuss ?

I believe he was making a point about how irrational your response was to his post.