OT Sell me on a better plan

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I hope this isn't too difficult of a "sell" for you

https://itep.org/60-fortune-500-companies-avoided-all-federal-income-tax-in-2018-under-new-tax-law/

60 of the fortune 500 companies didn't pay a cent in taxes under orange fuck stick's tax law. Make them pay their fair share (or more) and use that money to rebuild infrastructure or end hunger in America or a fucking shit ton of things that would make us a better society. Let's just start there.

Or let's not

Ban assault weapons outright.
Rent control.
Term limits.
Make Lobbying a criminal act.
End the electoral college.
Don't elect a con man traitor as president.
Bomb Canada.
I agree with most of this. Some economic differences in opinion, probably. The electoral college discussion is something that could go on for decades before anything happens, imo. Please don't let those minor opinions digress from the op though.
 
I agree with most of this. Some economic differences in opinion, probably. The electoral college discussion is something that could go on for decades before anything happens, imo. Please don't let those minor opinions digress from the op though.
I was just spitballing after the taxation thing, which, I think, should be a universal opinion and everything really could start right there. idk.
 
I was just spitballing after the taxation thing, which, I think, should be a universal opinion and everything really could start right there. idk.
I get what you mean.

I do somewhat have an issue with the "the economy is doing good" argument, in general. There are SO MANY factors that go into it. Sure, the POTUS has something to do with it. So do the previous office holders going back decades, and honestly centuries. Some more than others.

This topic gets me started on the Federal Reserve, and it's 11:20 pm for me right now and I probably shouldn't get started on the Federal Reserve.
 
I get what you mean.

I do somewhat have an issue with the "the economy is doing good" argument, in general. There are SO MANY factors that go into it. Sure, the POTUS has something to do with it. So do the previous office holders going back decades, and honestly centuries. Some more than others.

This topic gets me started on the Federal Reserve, and it's 11:20 pm for me right now and I probably shouldn't get started on the Federal Reserve.
Well, when he says the economy is doing good he's talking about the DOW (which is) and then he throws out shit like "blacks are the most employed EVAR" and shit like that but really how does the DOW affect true working class Americans? I have a 401K but I don't invest in the market. It really means nothing to me day to day. What *would* mean something to me is if my salary even remotely kept up with inflation or the ridiculous increase in rent prices.
 
Well, when he says the economy is doing good he's talking about the DOW (which is) and then he throws out shit like "blacks are the most employed EVAR" and shit like that but really how does the DOW affect true working class Americans? I have a 401K but I don't invest in the market. It really means nothing to me day to day. What *would* mean something to me is if my salary even remotely kept up with inflation or the ridiculous increase in rent prices.
I said don't get me started!
 
THe economy only looks good because it is being propped up by huge deficit spending.

Sadly, many people either totally dismiss this point or cannot grasp it.

It's simple math really and not much different than you or I trying to reconcile our checking accounts. For us to write checks (debits) for X amount of dollars we must have at least that much in funds.(credits)...again, very simple math and concept.

Trump's fuzzy math has allowed for drastic reductions in taxes (mostly for the rich and big business) but at the same time is spending more than the revenue we take in.


This sleight of hand and financial gymnastics are being built on the backs of out children and grandchildren.
 
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Sadly, many people either totally dismiss this point or cannot grasp it.

It's simple math really and not much different that you or I trying to reconcile our checking accounts. For us to write checks (debits) for X amount of dollars we must have at least that much in funds.(credits)...again, very simple math and concept.

Trump's fuzzy math has allowed for drastic reductions in taxes (mostly for the rich and big business) but at the same time is spending more than the revenue we take in.


This sleight of hand and financial gymnastics are being built on the backs of out children and grandchildren.

Trumps tax plan really fucked us. Our economy is so good and there is so much QE money out there that we should be raking in tax dollars to pay down the debt, that way we could adsorb another downturn with no issue. Instead Trump doubleded down on immediate profits. We literally just wasted the best economy of any of lives. Sad part is that it will run out of steam on a democrats watch and the democrats will be blamed for it, which will bring in another republican to fuck it up even further. This time there will be no safety net.
 
I will take a stab at it as a Warren supporter.

First, if you have not done so, I would suggest reading the NY Times article endorsing Warren and Amy Klobuchar: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...har-elizabeth-warren-nytimes-endorsement.html. This summarizes I think fairly strength and weakness of the various candidates.

It is also true, as the Times says, that most if not all of the 2020 Democratic field agrees on a lot of issues. They all support immigration reform, voting rights, expanding health care access, background checks for gun purchase, among other issues; they all support the science of global warming and think women are smart enough to make our own healthcare decisions without male legislators mansplaining pregnancy to us. They all agree treating people with courtesy and respect is a good thing, they all accept US intelligence over Putin.

So, why did I pick Warren? First, she aligns most consistently with my own views. Not 100%, I doubt any two people ever agree 100% on everything. But I do agree with her that simply nibbling around the edges is insufficient. I support any measure, even small ones, that make lives of people, animals, the planet a little better but one thing we've seen in the past 3 years is how easy it has been to undo these measures when a president not only wants to give all to the rich and powerful but also loves cruelty to those considered "losers" (poor, sick, disabled, refugees, etc.) I agree with Warren that structural changes are needed. As a working class woman I will always be poorer than my parents were. As a worker with a physical disability, I have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars due to employment discrimination and lack of access. And the next generation may be poorer still. All economic gains go to the top 1%, or really fraction of 1%. College is harder to go to, there is less and less social mobility, housing is insufficient and segregated, education perpetuates inequality, health care even with "good" insurance costs a fortune. And there are relentless attacks on civil rights. And the planet is burning. These things happen not due to some conspiracy hatched in a smoke filled room by a few evil men but because this inequality is a feature of the current system. It is working exactly as it was planned to, for the benefit of the rich and powerful.

I like that, as we say, "Warren has a plan for that". I'm a realist, I know she won't be able to implement every plan. But I like that she is not a one-note candidate. That she is knowledgeable and concerned about many issues. She's not likely to be taken by surprise by something that would come up during her presidency. She is prepared.

I like her. She does not come from privilege. She understands how it feels to struggle. Like many women of her generation she quit college to marry and have children. When she was ready to resume her education she was almost derailed by lack of childcare. Her Aunt Bea agreed to take care of her children. Were it not for Aunt Bea, she probably would have had to spend the rest of her life waiting tables or in a typing pool, like so many women. I like that she became a special education teacher. That shows she has compassion and is willing to do a hard job.

Early in the campaign, before I made up my mind who I supported, I saw Warren interviewed, I really can't remember by whom. But he said that a position she was espousing was not popular. She replied that leadership means doing what is right and persuading others that it is right. She added that she might indeed be wrong and other people might sometimes convince her of that. So many politicians talk out of both sides of their mouths. I thought she showed integrity saying she would do what she thought was right, and also humility, she is not a god, she does not know everything, she is willing to listen to other points of view. You will not hear her say she knows more about war than generals or more about science than scientists.

I know that Warren and Bernie Sanders have similar views. I picked Warren for several reasons. I admit, I'm inclined to support a woman, I mean, we've had 45 men and 0 women. Also, I feel that Warren explains and Sanders yells. I do get tired of being yelled at. Age is a factor, she is 70 but he is 78 and women live longer. I also feel that Sanders is less likely to listen to others.

You might want to check this out from Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/quiz-which-candidate-agrees-with-me/

It talks about a range of issues, you check off your position and it tells which candidate agrees most with you. Not surprisingly, it showed I agree most with Warren, Sanders second, also not terribly surprising, more of a surprise it showed Yang and Steyer, neither of whom I would consider supporting, third.

So that's why I support Elizabeth Warren. Hope that helps.
 
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Another nail in the coffin in the late, great OT Forum. :(

I took the time (despite knowing it was probably a fool's errand) to give @Orion Bailey a thoughtful response. As did @crandc and @calvin natt and @The Professional Fan and a few others. And what do we get?

Crickets, him harping at @barfo, and @MARIS61 with his usual silly, pointless, unintelligent schtick. OB clearly was not serious and thought nothing of wasting our time.

Maybe @riverman is right. What's the point? Seriously. "To everything there is a season, turn, turn, turn." Maybe the season of this once fun place is over.

And that makes me sad.
 
Another nail in the coffin in the late, great OT Forum. :(

I took the time (despite knowing it was probably a fool's errand) to give @Orion Bailey a thoughtful response. As did @crandc and @calvin natt and @The Professional Fan and a few others. And what do we get?

Crickets, him harping at @barfo, and @MARIS61 with his usual silly, pointless, unintelligent schtick. OB clearly was not serious and thought nothing of wasting our time.

Maybe @riverman is right. What's the point? Seriously. "To everything there is a season, turn, turn, turn." Maybe the season of this once fun place is over.

And that makes me sad.

Yeah. Anyone who asks to be sold on voting against trump is being disingenuous, there is no convincing because they are starting from an angle that is so skewed they will not accept valid reasons. Waste of time.
 
Another nail in the coffin in the late, great OT Forum. :(

I took the time (despite knowing it was probably a fool's errand) to give @Orion Bailey a thoughtful response. As did @crandc and @calvin natt and @The Professional Fan and a few others. And what do we get?

Crickets, him harping at @barfo, and @MARIS61 with his usual silly, pointless, unintelligent schtick. OB clearly was not serious and thought nothing of wasting our time.

Maybe @riverman is right. What's the point? Seriously. "To everything there is a season, turn, turn, turn." Maybe the season of this once fun place is over.

And that makes me sad.

Yeah. Anyone who asks to be sold on voting against trump is being disingenuous, there is no convincing because they are starting from an angle that is so skewed they will not accept valid reasons. Waste of time.

excersize a little patience. Your judgements are a bunch of bs.
Do tou want me to respond to your thoughtful posts on my phone and just ramble or can you give me the benefit of the doubt that i forgot i had a game to go to the night before, had to work extra late last night, am a busy man and want to do a bit of research on your thoughts and not just give a hollow response?


I also have plans tonight and tomorrow night, so really i don't see me giving a quality response until this weekend.
Will you live or just prejudge me?

Not everyone is on here 24/7?

seriously. I want to read up on a couple things so i give an informed response. Is that so bad?
You are only interested in a nonthoughtful kneejerk response? Or can i get a bit of respect for actually wanting to do a bit of research and put some real thought into my response?


Sheesh!!!!!

il respond thoughtfully and intelligently no later than this weekend.

please show a bit of patience???
 
Yeah. Anyone who asks to be sold on voting against trump is being disingenuous, there is no convincing because they are starting from an angle that is so skewed they will not accept valid reasons. Waste of time.

the. Why are you even posting if you are already set in your judgements?

leave the thread if all you have is comments like this. Move on. You are helping no one, including yourself.
You wont get another response from me because its clear you are too stubborn to see anything beyond your narrow vision.

I dont know you, you dont know me. To say im disingenuous with my questions proves my point and show how shallow you are for not taking the high road and offering real answers.

several posters here gave quality response and deserve a quality response in return. You are not one of these people. Move on and stop trying to derail the conversation with your judgmental comments.

you are the epitome of the problem regarding communication breakdowns.
 
I don't know if Orion Bailey will read my post. But every vote counts, so I'm hoping someone does.
 
I don't know if Orion Bailey will read my post. But every vote counts, so I'm hoping someone does.

I read it and she still has my vote despite if she wins the nomination. Despite my criticism she is still one of the top 3 but not my top DNC candidate pick. I think she would make a great president.
 
the. Why are you even posting if you are already set in your judgements?

leave the thread if all you have is comments like this. Move on. You are helping no one, including yourself.
You wont get another response from me because its clear you are too stubborn to see anything beyond your narrow vision.

I dont know you, you dont know me. To say im disingenuous with my questions proves my point and show how shallow you are for not taking the high road and offering real answers.

several posters here gave quality response and deserve a quality response in return. You are not one of these people. Move on and stop trying to derail the conversation with your judgmental comments.

you are the epitome of the problem regarding communication breakdowns.

No, I’ll stay right here. Waiting for the very first Trump supporter to be convinced of anything. Anything. Maybe it’ll be you!
 
More times than not, when someone goes looking for trouble, they generally find it.
 
You did a very good job, a well written thoughtful response. But...

You keep asking me questions your not going to like the answers to.. I don't want a war with you, I enjoy your opinions. But again you asked for it.

Yes, Clinton did balance the budget, but, Obama followed that up by doubling the national dept.

Just one example of half truths about our prosperity.

My opinion. Judging prosperity timelines is a murky job. Most actions carry over to future presidents, sometimes for decades.

Often presidents move away from campaign promises and behave like their opponent. Based on who they owe favors to.

Often outside uncontrollable events have the biggest affect on short term prosperity.

Bottom line concerning prosperity. I don't think it matters which party our president belongs to.

Obama was Cleaning up the huge ass mess that Bush Jr left behind. Bush not only squandered the surplus Clinton left, but he put us in more debt than every president before him combined. Obama had to come in and play janitor.
 
I don't know if Orion Bailey will read my post. But every vote counts, so I'm hoping someone does.
I read it. And as someone that has decided Bernie is my candidate, and as someone that has donated to his campaign, I will admit what you wrote was compelling and made me think about my choice. It was going to be between Bernie and Warren for me. I mostly chose Bernie because his grassroots support is massive and I think he has a better chance to beat Trump. Though, I'd pay money to see Warren eviscerate Trump in the debates.
 
This is a discussion that has been tried to be had many times here, but it has been ruined by closed mindedness on both sides time and time again. I can already see it happening here in this thread.


If there is any hope that this country moves in the right direction, it's that people can start working together. And not saying people need to agree on everything. I know many here will disagree with me and that's ok. I am saying discussion, actual discourse needs to happen. The country really hasn't moved in one direction, but back and forth. A failure of bipartisanship is the reason. One president gets the ball moving one way. Then a president of the other party moves it the other way. And so forth. The same with congress and the supreme court. Nothing meaningful will ever get done if each side says fuck the other when they are in power.


I often hear that plans offered by the democratic candidates are unrealistic. There is no way to afford them. They are dreams...etc. Those are excuses so we don't have to accept an inconvenient reality. Change is hard. It is easier to not face the problems at hand by pretending they don't exist.


In truth we have set ourselves back. A lot of changes are needed. Changes do not come cheap monetarily or otherwise. But, we are on a troubling and dysfunctional path that could have irrevocable consequences.


Fixing this trouble is going to take a lot. A Lot of creative ideas. Now, when we hear someone list a bunch of complex issues our country faces and says they are going to start on day one and fix them all. That is unrealistic. But, it is the right intention.


It is going to take a span if presidents to fix the issues going on with our country. It is too big a mess for one president alone to clean up. It is going to take time. We live in a society where want to hear things are going to get fixed now, not later.


We have to be patient. I don't think anyone running on either side can fix everything. I think a few of them (not including Trump) can point us in the right direction and start working on some of the many issues plaguing us.



We need Open mindedness


Bipartisanship - Set term limits for Congress and SCJ (fair appointments). More politicians working across the aisle, for the people, not for self interest.


Living wage instead of a minimum wage. Rent control. The wage goes up only for inflation to go up. We need to control inflation. Inflation in the last 50 years is insane. It's unnecessary. People can barely keep their heads above water, many are drowning, hence the rising numbers of homeless. People can barely afford their rent...or pay both rent and bills and put food on the table, etc. We live in the richest nation in the world. This is ridiculous. The economy would in fact be in a far better place if Inflation were decreased and wages raised.


Rewrite the Budget to balance it. Too much money going to defense (which most of it is not actually going to defense, but in the pockets of contractors and politicians. Balance it. Get rid of everything that is unnecessary.


Education needs better funding. The school system continues to decay. Our children are our future, yet we are so caught up in our current bottom line we are disenfranchising them. We need to invest in them. We need smaller class sizes, better paid teachers, updated supplies, buildings that aren't falling apart, etc. We need free colleges and trade schools, so we aren't burdening our workforce. I think doing that will also allow the economy to truly prosper.


Change the tax codes so big corporations and the rich pay their fare share. Remove loopholes Giving large companies tax breaks where they pay no taxes does little in most instances for the employees who see little to no benefit. Corporations like Wal-Mart, McDonalds, Starbucks, etc do what is beneficial to them, not to their employees. They keep that money and get richer. Don't tell me they can't afford to take care of employees if they have to pay taxes either. They are billion dollar industries.


Withdraw most troops from the middle east in a measured fashion. Leave only necessary support.


Instead of dropping out of all trade agreements, creating a volatile situation, just to pout and whine is not progressive. Renegotiate trade agreements that aren't fair. Insist other countries pay their way. Be a assertive but not a bully.


Immigration needs to be fixed. More judges to hear cases. Instead of a useless wall, update technology at the border and at sea, bolster security checkpoints (most drugs are smuggled through checkpoints and by sea), have soldiers patrol the border.

Let kids stay with their parents. No for profit immigration jails made out of old Walmarts and full of cages. Better pathways to citizenship. We are a land of immigrants. Our ancestors all came from elsewhere.


Free Healthcare like Canada for those who want it. Allow those who want to keep their's to do so. (I find this interesting though. If someome is guaranteed free health care that covers everything and is better than what they are on, why not take it? The only two reasons I can think of. Fear, i.e. you don't believe it will be better. That or Principle...which is just stubborness, buy hey I digress.)

Don't make it law everyone has to have healthcare. That will just cause people to not want it.
 
This is a discussion that has been tried to be had many times here, but it has been ruined by closed mindedness on both sides time and time again. I can already see it happening here in this thread.


If there is any hope that this country moves in the right direction, it's that people can start working together. And not saying people need to agree on everything. I know many here will disagree with me and that's ok. I am saying discussion, actual discourse needs to happen. The country really hasn't moved in one direction, but back and forth. A failure of bipartisanship is the reason. One president gets the ball moving one way. Then a president of the other party moves it the other way. And so forth. The same with congress and the supreme court. Nothing meaningful will ever get done if each side says fuck the other when they are in power.


I often hear that plans offered by the democratic candidates are unrealistic. There is no way to afford them. They are dreams...etc. Those are excuses so we don't have to accept an inconvenient reality. Change is hard. It is easier to not face the problems at hand by pretending they don't exist.


In truth we have set ourselves back. A lot of changes are needed. Changes do not come cheap monetarily or otherwise. But, we are on a troubling and dysfunctional path that could have irrevocable consequences.


Fixing this trouble is going to take a lot. A Lot of creative ideas. Now, when we hear someone list a bunch of complex issues our country faces and says they are going to start on day one and fix them all. That is unrealistic. But, it is the right intention.


It is going to take a span if presidents to fix the issues going on with our country. It is too big a mess for one president alone to clean up. It is going to take time. We live in a society where want to hear things are going to get fixed now, not later.


We have to be patient. I don't think anyone running on either side can fix everything. I think a few of them (not including Trump) can point us in the right direction and start working on some of the many issues plaguing us.



We need Open mindedness


Bipartisanship - Set term limits for Congress and SCJ (fair appointments). More politicians working across the aisle, for the people, not for self interest.


Living wage instead of a minimum wage. Rent control. The wage goes up only for inflation to go up. We need to control inflation. Inflation in the last 50 years is insane. It's unnecessary. People can barely keep their heads above water, many are drowning, hence the rising numbers of homeless. People can barely afford their rent...or pay both rent and bills and put food on the table, etc. We live in the richest nation in the world. This is ridiculous. The economy would in fact be in a far better place if Inflation were decreased and wages raised.


Rewrite the Budget to balance it. Too much money going to defense (which most of it is not actually going to defense, but in the pockets of contractors and politicians. Balance it. Get rid of everything that is unnecessary.


Education needs better funding. The school system continues to decay. Our children are our future, yet we are so caught up in our current bottom line we are disenfranchising them. We need to invest in them. We need smaller class sizes, better paid teachers, updated supplies, buildings that aren't falling apart, etc. We need free colleges and trade schools, so we aren't burdening our workforce. I think doing that will also allow the economy to truly prosper.


Change the tax codes so big corporations and the rich pay their fare share. Remove loopholes Giving large companies tax breaks where they pay no taxes does little in most instances for the employees who see little to no benefit. Corporations like Wal-Mart, McDonalds, Starbucks, etc do what is beneficial to them, not to their employees. They keep that money and get richer. Don't tell me they can't afford to take care of employees if they have to pay taxes either. They are billion dollar industries.


Withdraw most troops from the middle east in a measured fashion. Leave only necessary support.


Instead of dropping out of all trade agreements, creating a volatile situation, just to pout and whine is not progressive. Renegotiate trade agreements that aren't fair. Insist other countries pay their way. Be a assertive but not a bully.


Immigration needs to be fixed. More judges to hear cases. Instead of a useless wall, update technology at the border and at sea, bolster security checkpoints (most drugs are smuggled through checkpoints and by sea), have soldiers patrol the border.

Let kids stay with their parents. No for profit immigration jails made out of old Walmarts and full of cages. Better pathways to citizenship. We are a land of immigrants. Our ancestors all came from elsewhere.


Free Healthcare like Canada for those who want it. Allow those who want to keep their's to do so. (I find this interesting though. If someome is guaranteed free health care that covers everything and is better than what they are on, why not take it? The only two reasons I can think of. Fear, i.e. you don't believe it will be better. That or Principle...which is just stubborness, buy hey I digress.)

Don't make it law everyone has to have healthcare. That will just cause people to not want it.


I am 100% ok and willing to admit and have no problem whatsoever saying I am totally and completely closed minded about Donald J Trump. He is a fucking clown and needs to rot in a prison cell. No apologies here.
 
I am 100% ok and willing to admit and have no problem whatsoever saying I am totally and completely closed minded about Donald J Trump. He is a fucking clown and needs to rot in a prison cell. No apologies here.

Hey, don't sugar coat it ...if you have something to say, just come out and say it ! :bgrin:
 
I am 100% ok and willing to admit and have no problem whatsoever saying I am totally and completely closed minded about Donald J Trump. He is a fucking clown and needs to rot in a prison cell. No apologies here.

Ok
 
Just thought I’d pop in and see if anyone changed their mind. Anywho maybe next time
 


I watched this and overall felt very impressed with the realism vibe I got from him.

Couple take aways.
One, he opened my eyes to the migration fight and automated machines. He is absolutely right that immigrants aren't taking jobs over. Yes there may be jobs they still have, but i'm sure there is an increased fight for those jobs, based on a continually decreased need, as companies and farmers continue to upgrade their businesses to automated or machined operated facilities.
Two, he boasted, quite matter of factly, that he would put the Dems back in the lead with a technologically advanced, campaign run.... but gave not one word as to how. I'm ignorant on Yang. ill be checking him out and i'm sure I will answer my own questions soon enough, but what is his background? Is it business? Does he own some elite tech company? How can he make such a promise and say its true like that?

Anyhow, thanks for the link. I'm very intrigued so far. Seems down to earth, quick witted, funny, charismatic and able to speak fairly plainly that most common Americans can relate to. I need to dig more into his history and ideologies now. My only initial concern is, will he get the full party financial backing, if he doesn't sacrifice his own ideals for party ideals he disagrees with? OR is he like a Ross Perut and he is so wealthy he can compete regardless?
 
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I would recommend listening to one of his podcast appearances if you have the time. My favorite was when he was on Sam Harris's podcast but the Joe Rogan one is a good starting point to get an idea of what Yang is about.



Also his website has his views on many, many topics.

https://www.yang2020.com/policies/


Thanks VG. Stated watching the initial link but its two hours, so I watched some of it and then had to move on for now. The link to his site will provide a ton of answers to my questions, as well, I'm sure. Having watch the link Sly put up, I'm interested and want to learn more about him no doubt about it. How is he sitting lined up to other Dems running?

I will say this, I'm not sure im sold on a universal equal pay program, but I do tend to agree wit the loss of jobs and how will we be able to compensate for that without ending up with a few million people who now own everything and all the money, with extremely few jobs left for anyone to make an type of income.

This is a huge economical change that would require a major marketing campaign to even have a chance at getting people to understand the long term path and even start thinking about options on how to deal with it.
Where would this lead to though? Predetermined career paths given to us by the government based one early testing? That's scary in its own right. There is a very fine line with this that could easily cross over the line of freedom and be a potential infringement on that basic right that many would push back against.

This country and world economy is extremely fragile and as fortunate we, as Americans are, to not have had a war on our soil for the bulk of us living now, that we have forgotten the harsh realities of what "surviving" is all about. With that said, America would rather go back to surviving, than have their freedom of choice taken away. choice to save money. choice to make money, choice of career path, etc.

Maybe he goes on to explain how this all would work, and like I said I will watch more later, but If I watched it all, I wouldn't have time tonight to provide comments/feedback. :)
 
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OK, @Orion Bailey, here's what I have to say:

If you want peace, prosperity, and social progress, you would vote Democratic.

And I can prove it to you:

The Clinton years, the 90s, gave us that. No war, and balanced budget to boot (due to a budget that every Republican voted against.) He gave W. a surplus. W. not only wasted that surplus on a silly tax cut for the rich, but when we were attacked by Al Qaeda, W invaded the wrong country, Iraq, giving us two endless wars.

So during the Clinton years was also the Internet age. Anyone who talks serious about the historical economical scale of our country puts major emphasis on that when discussing how robust the economy was during Clinton's run.

However, this has nothing to do with my question about a plan. This is simply pointing fingers about the past.

The GOP wastes money and gets us into war. Every time.

Really? Looks like you are wrong there....want to check this out and get back to me?
Oh. And this again has nothing to do with my question about a plan for the future....:)

https://sputniknews.com/us/201803271062904845-us-war-democrats-republicans/

In addition, W was horrible during Katrina, and when the world economy was on the brink of collapse, it took the incoming Obama admin to make the hard calls, save the auto industry, bail out the banks, and keep us out of a depression. Obama also gave us Obamacae, which despite its faults, is popular and keeps millions insured. Yes, his economic recovery was tepid, but at least we slowed down Iran's building of a bomb by 15 years - Trump's policy ended it at 5 years.

No doubt Bush was a terrible president in many ways. I'm sure if we dig, we can find a few things that were positive he did, but not worth squabbling over. We are in agreement. He was bad. Im sure if I did some searching I cold find some pretty bad democratic presidents too, but I wont turn every comment into a link response. :)

Aside from Trump's obvious and deep personal and political flaws, what do we have? Attacking our allies, N. Korea closer to a bomb, Iran closer to a bomb, NATO in disarray, xenpohobia and anti-semitism on the rise at home. Yes, no doubt the economy is strong, but the deficit is crazy big now and the GOP no longer stands for anything that it used to - fiscal constraint, strong defense, respect for tradition, prudence. The GOP loves Russia now for crying out loud.

That is alot to go over in one sentence, each part having its own set of complicated factions.
debt being crazy big? Its sharpest recent incline was when Obama was in office per this grid:

960x0.jpg


from 2008 -2011 or so, you see the sharpest incline. Then from there it moderates considerably into a steady incline. No doubt it needs to be a high priority for any admin to focus on, but to say it is just the GOP is incorrect per this grid.

What does N Korea being closer to a nuke have any relevance? They have been trying to build one for decades. Are you implying Trump is aiding or facilitating an expedition for them?
https://www.globalzero.org/updates/...MIv-CSnqqi5wIVQx6tBh3legJ3EAAYASAAEgIeS_D_BwE

I addressed a couple of topics in that portion of your post, but will not address every one for time reasons, but serious.
Again.
None of this has any relevance on my question about a better plan. I'm not sure what you are claiming to prove here, but it has proven nothing to me so far as to the relevant answer to my question, show me a better plan. a plan of ideals and political guidelines that would help us as a country moving forward?

With the Republicans, you always get budget busting and wars, because that's where their profit is. Dems fix the problems the GOP make.

Again, See the grid above. Your comment on the budget is incorrect and i'm willing to bet if I did a search of Democratic presidents who have got us, or been involved in conflicts/wears, there would be multiple. But may I ask . What part of this isa plan to help us move positively into the future?

With a Democrat, you would get expanded health care options (but no, no medicare for all, that would never pass.) You would get a more normal alliance driven foreign policy, Putin in check, leaders would not laugh at the president in summits, the rich would be taxed more, consumers would be given more of a voice, the middle class would truly be the concern, not the richest of the rich, bigots, anti-semites, and racists would not be called “very good people on the other side.”

Okay. Now here you go. This is hinting at what might be better for the future if I were to vote on the democratic line. So . expanded health care, but no medicare for all. Hmm. Sounds okay on the surface, but I need to see details. One of the reason I lean towards the republicans is because of this topic. I don't want universal health care. I am all for government aid to those in need due to uncontrollable circumstances and I do get that there are areas that are very gray and would need to be analyzed and thought out in detail to make sure where the line is in regards long term health issues. Cancer. Was it caused by 30 years of chain smoking, basically a long term self inflicted suicide, or is it breast cancer to a healthy and health conscious female?

My point is I don't want to be stuck with a higher tax bill because now i'm paying for the health care of a bunch of people with poor health due to living the American dream and being lazy and sitting on the couch all day with a bag of freetos and a six pack of jolt and a netflix marathon.
I'm all for spending the money and time to restructure the health care system in this country and giving the government more control, but only as long as it is written up in a very detailed and scrutinized way that can accurately differentiate between who is deserving and who brought their suffering on themselves in an acknowledged, conscious and prolonged manner. Guy makes a mistake rock climbing and falls, He should receive the care he needs. If a person chooses to hang out in a casino drinking and smoking all day and night and comes down with a diseases link and attributed to the lifestyle they chose, then they are own their own.


And of course, and not least, climate change would be given the urgent priority that it requires.

Sounds 1000% better to me.

Climate change or not, I think taking better care of our surroundings should be a focus of both parties, current and future admins. Whether we actually have a long lasting carbon footprint on this planets future or not, why the fuck do we like to piss in our own backyard? Every man, woman, child, city, state and country should do the best they can to recycle what they can and reduce their imprint on nature, within reason of living ones life.
In this, I agree, that's sounds 1000% times better to me, and i'm not in agreement with the recent loosening of some of our ecological laws we had, allowing for a higher level of emissions and pollution. This, in my opinion was not a good move.


All in all, I didn't really come to understand any type of plan for the future you might have been trying to line out, however I did comment on a couple of topics you toughed upon, though without much of any in depth plan on how to do it, or links to candidates who can explain how they would implement such an ideology as healthcare for most. Or any thoughts on how to balance the budget without huge tax increases or major spending cuts?

Most of what you said sounded fantastic in its own little soundbite on its own. The magic ten words to sell off of. Its the next ten i'm looking for. HOW will you make these things come into fruition . What is the plan of action, angle or pathway to achieve these statements of future greatness?

That's what i'm looking for.
 

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