OT Sell me on a better plan

[Orion Bailey]

Okie Dokie, here's a few objective action tactics from a libertarian's point of view.
1- implement an objective measurable plan, to balance the budget.
2- Reduce the size of government through consolidation of agencies or getting rid of certain ones all together. You cant convince me they all are justified by their existence.
3- Promote and pass congressional term limits that make since. 12 years or so.
4- Bring troops home from Afghanistan and middle east. Keep sea and air presence where needed.
5-Continue to allow corp. tax breaks that allow US mfg's to be competitive.
6-Have a progressive tax structure that makes since to support a smaller leaner government.
7- An effort to change and make equally fair appointments SCJ's. Have equal representation. 15 year term limits if possible.
8. Evaluate and improve where needed all trade agreements.
9.Continue to expect other countries to pull their weight in support of NATO and UN. We don't need finance alone all the efforts.
10.Push and require congress with timeline, to come up with immigration plan and security measures.
11.Create a bipartisan effort to bring the cost of health care and RX down. A balanced approach.
12.Allow States more autonomy with regards, to certain laws pot, guns, abortion ect.
13. Keep America a capitalistic country and protect personal liberty, allow States more power, encourage human enterprise and help citizens from becoming dependent of welfare.

Just a few and obviously have missed some good ones i'm sure.

My responses in correlation to your numbers:
1) implement a plan will include either a bunch of one or the other, or some of both of, spending cuts and tax increases. Are you okay with that?: Obviously how and where would be a major factor in the sign off.
2) I like this a lot and can possibly aid in facilitating the progress of number 1.Again, this would take major thought and majority consensus, but I think many are in agreement, the world is changing so fast, we are not keeping up when it comes to policies and sects the government drafted to deal with things that no longer pose a concern worthy of the sect originally created.
3) I like this alot too. Id be interested in a discussion like this for grand jury judges as well.
4) Complicated and each region has is own topic of details to sift through, but im all for bringing all troops home that aren't stationed for a critical strategical reason or imminent threat avoidance. Everyone else can come home and we can use drones for eval and small scale confrontations.
5) corporate tax breaks for US MFG's to be competitive sounds great in theory but is very dangerous in its own right. You hear the complaints about how Walmart didn't pay any taxes. Corporate taxes are a large part of the governments income. To cut them could be costly to many programs the Dems want with regards to social services.
6) This ties into a few precious numbers im for researching on how to make it happen.
7) Not sure what you mean by SCJ's? When I googled, I got nothing but stuff on family work programs. not sure how that ties in to term limits?
8) This should be a constant cycle of happening as time evolves, so do ideas, trends, pathways to scientific and industrial advancements and progressions, so too should all trade agreements, be constantly reviewed to ensure the maximum amount of benefit for all parties.
9) This kind of ties into 8. Trade agreements and embargoes are a large part of creating leverage and putting pressure on counties who are not pulling their weight in any number of things , including humans rights, nuclear proliferation, etc.
I used to think that free trade stops wars. Allow countries to trade and they fill their needs and don't attack to fill them. But no longer think this is the case. I think free trade and the WTO create wars, though civil wars. See, WTO creates world trade, so all countries can trade for the worlds resources. But then when a country has a leader rise and act in heinous ways, suppression of their people, defiance of the worlds wants, etc,..then embargoes are set and trade sanctions are imposed. This usually backfires, because it is the people who suffer and they often blame the USA. History has proven this time and time again. More often than not, The Us is not wanted in internal conflict happening in many countries, especially in the mid east region.
Without going into detail about specific occurrences, other countries generally don't like outsiders meddling with their internal conflicts. Much the same if we have a civil war, we wouldn't want... well the opposing side, wouldn't want outside interference.
10) Sure. Immigration is a concern, but lets do some studies on the numbers and impact before we push more. Trump has had a major push on immigrancy. I think its on the for front of debate enough and that will continue to progress into some sort of hopeful improvement.
11) This ties into a restructuring of the Health Care System. One really cant happen without the other. The pharmaceuticals will need a major restructuring as well.
12) The Fed Gov should get out of consensual crime laws and punishments all together. These should absolutely be a state by state and region by region thing. Let the people who deal with what they see in their own surroundings decide what they want to see or live next to or do to themselves. Just don't make me pay for it, if they chose an unhealthy path. LOL
13)I pretty much agree wit hthis, but it all needs a plan. Its just a good thought.


All in all, great topics of discussion for sure, and overall, I agree with much of what you wrote. I wish I had more time to really break things down point by point, and maybe I will com back and do so in the near future, but life has been extremely busy as of late.

Thank you for the quality response and maintaining a positive disposition. I enjoyed the read and thought provoking statements, providing my desire to respond.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Like it. Have one to add.

I agree with the dems the national minimum wage needs to increase. Not only has it failed to improved the living conditions of entry level job workers. It has failed to keep up with inflation.

The thought is large scale wage increases mean more jobs moving overseas, but that isnt happening with the minimum wage jobs. They arent moving that Mcdonalds or Safeway to China. Ive never understood that argument. Minimum wage increases arent affecting people making 50-100k a year at nike and intel. They affect the people providing us our everyday needs. fast food and cash register services. They pump our gas. Thier jobs arent going anywhere because they are the ones servicing on a local community level. not in some mass production type environment. Yes, some o those may go, but those are MFG companies that need to be differentiates form large corporate service related companies.
Minimum wage should be at least $15, but I say $20. Thats a true livable, modest, but livable wage.

 

[Lanny]

So during the Clinton years was also the Internet age. Anyone who talks serious about the historical economical scale of our country puts major emphasis on that when discussing how robust the economy was during Clinton's run.

However, this has nothing to do with my question about a plan. This is simply pointing fingers about the past.



Really? Looks like you are wrong there....want to check this out and get back to me?
Oh. And this again has nothing to do with my question about a plan for the future....

https://sputniknews.com/us/201803271062904845-us-war-democrats-republicans/



No doubt Bush was a terrible president in many ways. I'm sure if we dig, we can find a few things that were positive he did, but not worth squabbling over. We are in agreement. He was bad. Im sure if I did some searching I cold find some pretty bad democratic presidents too, but I wont turn every comment into a link response.



That is alot to go over in one sentence, each part having its own set of complicated factions.
debt being crazy big? Its sharpest recent incline was when Obama was in office per this grid:

from 2008 -2011 or so, you see the sharpest incline. Then from there it moderates considerably into a steady incline. No doubt it needs to be a high priority for any admin to focus on, but to say it is just the GOP is incorrect per this grid.

What does N Korea being closer to a nuke have any relevance? They have been trying to build one for decades. Are you implying Trump is aiding or facilitating an expedition for them?
https://www.globalzero.org/updates/...MIv-CSnqqi5wIVQx6tBh3legJ3EAAYASAAEgIeS_D_BwE

I addressed a couple of topics in that portion of your post, but will not address every one for time reasons, but serious.
Again.
None of this has any relevance on my question about a better plan. I'm not sure what you are claiming to prove here, but it has proven nothing to me so far as to the relevant answer to my question, show me a better plan. a plan of ideals and political guidelines that would help us as a country moving forward?



Again, See the grid above. Your comment on the budget is incorrect and i'm willing to bet if I did a search of Democratic presidents who have got us, or been involved in conflicts/wears, there would be multiple. But may I ask . What part of this isa plan to help us move positively into the future?



Okay. Now here you go. This is hinting at what might be better for the future if I were to vote on the democratic line. So . expanded health care, but no medicare for all. Hmm. Sounds okay on the surface, but I need to see details. One of the reason I lean towards the republicans is because of this topic. I don't want universal health care. I am all for government aid to those in need due to uncontrollable circumstances and I do get that there are areas that are very gray and would need to be analyzed and thought out in detail to make sure where the line is in regards long term health issues. Cancer. Was it caused by 30 years of chain smoking, basically a long term self inflicted suicide, or is it breast cancer to a healthy and health conscious female?

My point is I don't want to be stuck with a higher tax bill because now i'm paying for the health care of a bunch of people with poor health due to living the American dream and being lazy and sitting on the couch all day with a bag of freetos and a six pack of jolt and a netflix marathon.
I'm all for spending the money and time to restructure the health care system in this country and giving the government more control, but only as long as it is written up in a very detailed and scrutinized way that can accurately differentiate between who is deserving and who brought their suffering on themselves in an acknowledged, conscious and prolonged manner. Guy makes a mistake rock climbing and falls, He should receive the care he needs. If a person chooses to hang out in a casino drinking and smoking all day and night and comes down with a diseases link and attributed to the lifestyle they chose, then they are own their own.




Climate change or not, I think taking better care of our surroundings should be a focus of both parties, current and future admins. Whether we actually have a long lasting carbon footprint on this planets future or not, why the fuck do we like to piss in our own backyard? Every man, woman, child, city, state and country should do the best they can to recycle what they can and reduce their imprint on nature, within reason of living ones life.
In this, I agree, that's sounds 1000% times better to me, and i'm not in agreement with the recent loosening of some of our ecological laws we had, allowing for a higher level of emissions and pollution. This, in my opinion was not a good move.


All in all, I didn't really come to understand any type of plan for the future you might have been trying to line out, however I did comment on a couple of topics you toughed upon, though without much of any in depth plan on how to do it, or links to candidates who can explain how they would implement such an ideology as healthcare for most. Or any thoughts on how to balance the budget without huge tax increases or major spending cuts?

Most of what you said sounded fantastic in its own little soundbite on its own. The magic ten words to sell off of. Its the next ten i'm looking for. HOW will you make these things come into fruition . What is the plan of action, angle or pathway to achieve these statements of future greatness?

That's what i'm looking for.

The difference is that at the end of WWII we had a lot returning soldiers who could contribute to our economy and a GI Bill that would facilitate that. We also had an economy that was going from a war time footing to a peace time footing so our economy could recover from our vast national debt. We don't have that now while we do have an aging population with more people retiring and fewer to replace the retiring taxpayers. Our recovery is going to be a whole lot more painful.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Guys we are supposed to be selling him on a better plan than Trumps plan. Because he doesn’t have Google and so far nobody is a better option than Trump. We have an uphill climb trying to convince someone that a dumb, morally bankrupt liar is not as good as the Democrat candidates. Maybe the tax cuts that have cost hundreds of billions so we can make the rich richer, or the great Mexican wall, or the tariffs, or the Russian interference or the random bombing of the Iranian are really compelling to him so we have our work cut out for us.

Do you actually think that comments like this are a positive way to get me, or anyone, to want to listen or be open minded to anything you or anyone that agrees with you says? Do you not see that in making statements like this, do you not only help to push people like me further in the other direction, but you completely undermine any true and endearing peaceable conversation any of your peers may be seeking. Your blind hatred for Trump is the enemy you fight so hard against. Do you not see that it is your very hatred of Trump and how you express it that will help to get him reelected?

You choose the way you decide to engage in debate with those who do not share your ideals. You can either look to discuss in detail situations or current issues in place and try to come up with a compromising solution, or you can just toss yourself on the floor and have a tantrum because someone might disagree with you on certain things.

Let me ask you this, because you have often referenced Trump being a liar and a cheat and lacking morality for the office( Whicxh I don't disagree with) . Did you vote for Bill Clinton? IF so, how do you feel about that, knowing he disgraced the oval office and the office of the presidency when we openly lied about not having sexual relations IN THE WHITE HOUSE, effectively having an affair with his wife?

Now me, I voted for Clinton. I thought he was changing the economy( I was young and naive), but also because I don't think ones personal life is of great relevance when it comes to a sexual nature. If he is able to resolve it with his wife, then that is all he needs to answer to.
With that said, I find it extremely hypocritical when people make statements like lacking morality, but totally dismiss Clintons actions in the Whitehouse. There shouldn't be an argument involving morality if one is to discuss the Dems being morally superior to the Republicans. Both have shown to put leaders in the office with various defects to their morality and been supported by their party regardless.
So to swing the morality card around with such great frequency just shows the shortsightedness and lack of historical memory to the office and who was preceded, one has.

You are a disappointment to my OP and bipartisan progress in general. Rather than seizing the opportunity to state your case about how and why your ideologies can improve our way of life moving forward, you chose to ignorantly label me as a Trump supporter, of which I'm not, and close the door on any constructive discussions and/or debate. Anyone who takes an ideological stance similar to yours and has a true admirable agenda, should be ashamed of your portrayal of your common goal with them of getting Trump out of office.

You just don't get it. I WANT HIM OUT TOO! I just want him out with reasonable and thought out ideals, rather than moral hatred from those who find themselves morally superior. That, to me, isnt enough of a justification to just vote for anyone else. I need some confidence the person I'm voting for will actually be better or I might be struck with Trumps Biszerko and I don't want that any more than I want Trump in office.

Don' put me down because I want to learn more about what the Dems have to offer, before I just jump in line like some Trump hating zombie, ready to follow blindy, anyone waving an anti maga flag. Sorry Im not that gullible....You have to bring something better to the table than that....

 

[Orion Bailey]

I will take a stab at it as a Warren supporter.

First, if you have not done so, I would suggest reading the NY Times article endorsing Warren and Amy Klobuchar: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...har-elizabeth-warren-nytimes-endorsement.html. This summarizes I think fairly strength and weakness of the various candidates.

It is also true, as the Times says, that most if not all of the 2020 Democratic field agrees on a lot of issues. They all support immigration reform, voting rights, expanding health care access, background checks for gun purchase, among other issues; they all support the science of global warming and think women are smart enough to make our own healthcare decisions without male legislators mansplaining pregnancy to us. They all agree treating people with courtesy and respect is a good thing, they all accept US intelligence over Putin.

So, why did I pick Warren? First, she aligns most consistently with my own views. Not 100%, I doubt any two people ever agree 100% on everything. But I do agree with her that simply nibbling around the edges is insufficient. I support any measure, even small ones, that make lives of people, animals, the planet a little better but one thing we've seen in the past 3 years is how easy it has been to undo these measures when a president not only wants to give all to the rich and powerful but also loves cruelty to those considered "losers" (poor, sick, disabled, refugees, etc.) I agree with Warren that structural changes are needed. As a working class woman I will always be poorer than my parents were. As a worker with a physical disability, I have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars due to employment discrimination and lack of access. And the next generation may be poorer still. All economic gains go to the top 1%, or really fraction of 1%. College is harder to go to, there is less and less social mobility, housing is insufficient and segregated, education perpetuates inequality, health care even with "good" insurance costs a fortune. And there are relentless attacks on civil rights. And the planet is burning. These things happen not due to some conspiracy hatched in a smoke filled room by a few evil men but because this inequality is a feature of the current system. It is working exactly as it was planned to, for the benefit of the rich and powerful.

I like that, as we say, "Warren has a plan for that". I'm a realist, I know she won't be able to implement every plan. But I like that she is not a one-note candidate. That she is knowledgeable and concerned about many issues. She's not likely to be taken by surprise by something that would come up during her presidency. She is prepared.

I like her. She does not come from privilege. She understands how it feels to struggle. Like many women of her generation she quit college to marry and have children. When she was ready to resume her education she was almost derailed by lack of childcare. Her Aunt Bea agreed to take care of her children. Were it not for Aunt Bea, she probably would have had to spend the rest of her life waiting tables or in a typing pool, like so many women. I like that she became a special education teacher. That shows she has compassion and is willing to do a hard job.

Early in the campaign, before I made up my mind who I supported, I saw Warren interviewed, I really can't remember by whom. But he said that a position she was espousing was not popular. She replied that leadership means doing what is right and persuading others that it is right. She added that she might indeed be wrong and other people might sometimes convince her of that. So many politicians talk out of both sides of their mouths. I thought she showed integrity saying she would do what she thought was right, and also humility, she is not a god, she does not know everything, she is willing to listen to other points of view. You will not hear her say she knows more about war than generals or more about science than scientists.

I know that Warren and Bernie Sanders have similar views. I picked Warren for several reasons. I admit, I'm inclined to support a woman, I mean, we've had 45 men and 0 women. Also, I feel that Warren explains and Sanders yells. I do get tired of being yelled at. Age is a factor, she is 70 but he is 78 and women live longer. I also feel that Sanders is less likely to listen to others.

You might want to check this out from Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/quiz-which-candidate-agrees-with-me/

It talks about a range of issues, you check off your position and it tells which candidate agrees most with you. Not surprisingly, it showed I agree most with Warren, Sanders second, also not terribly surprising, more of a surprise it showed Yang and Steyer, neither of whom I would consider supporting, third.

So that's why I support Elizabeth Warren. Hope that helps.

Thanks Crand, for your thought out response.

I agree with some and don't agree with some, and will get to it in detail sometime in the next week, after I check out the links provided. I don't really expect us to have many of the same ideologies considering our fairly different backgrounds and lifestyle,s but I always respect and will give an ear and thought to anyone willing to share, discuss and debate their positions in a constructive manner.

Give me a few days to give you the true reply you deserve.

 

[Lanny]

The thought is large scale wage increases mean more jobs moving overseas, but that isnt happening with the minimum wage jobs. They arent moving that Mcdonalds or Safeway to China. Ive never understood that argument. Minimum wage increases arent affecting people making 50-100k a year at nike and intel. They affect the people providing us our everyday needs. fast food and cash register services. They pump our gas. Thier jobs arent going anywhere because they are the ones servicing on a local community level. not in some mass production type environment. Yes, some o those may go, but those are MFG companies that need to be differentiates form large corporate service related companies.
Minimum wage should be at least $15, but I say $20. Thats a true livable, modest, but livable wage.

When I was in my mid teens the minimum wage was $1.25/hr. and the economy was doing very well. When accounting for inflation today's minimum wage ought to be somewhere between $15/hr. and $20 per hour. $15/hr. is a good first step.

 

[Orion Bailey]

This is a discussion that has been tried to be had many times here, but it has been ruined by closed mindedness on both sides time and time again. I can already see it happening here in this thread.


If there is any hope that this country moves in the right direction, it's that people can start working together. And not saying people need to agree on everything. I know many here will disagree with me and that's ok. I am saying discussion, actual discourse needs to happen. The country really hasn't moved in one direction, but back and forth. A failure of bipartisanship is the reason. One president gets the ball moving one way. Then a president of the other party moves it the other way. And so forth. The same with congress and the supreme court. Nothing meaningful will ever get done if each side says fuck the other when they are in power.


I often hear that plans offered by the democratic candidates are unrealistic. There is no way to afford them. They are dreams...etc. Those are excuses so we don't have to accept an inconvenient reality. Change is hard. It is easier to not face the problems at hand by pretending they don't exist.


In truth we have set ourselves back. A lot of changes are needed. Changes do not come cheap monetarily or otherwise. But, we are on a troubling and dysfunctional path that could have irrevocable consequences.


Fixing this trouble is going to take a lot. A Lot of creative ideas. Now, when we hear someone list a bunch of complex issues our country faces and says they are going to start on day one and fix them all. That is unrealistic. But, it is the right intention.


It is going to take a span if presidents to fix the issues going on with our country. It is too big a mess for one president alone to clean up. It is going to take time. We live in a society where want to hear things are going to get fixed now, not later.


We have to be patient. I don't think anyone running on either side can fix everything. I think a few of them (not including Trump) can point us in the right direction and start working on some of the many issues plaguing us.



We need Open mindedness


Bipartisanship - Set term limits for Congress and SCJ (fair appointments). More politicians working across the aisle, for the people, not for self interest.


Living wage instead of a minimum wage. Rent control. The wage goes up only for inflation to go up. We need to control inflation. Inflation in the last 50 years is insane. It's unnecessary. People can barely keep their heads above water, many are drowning, hence the rising numbers of homeless. People can barely afford their rent...or pay both rent and bills and put food on the table, etc. We live in the richest nation in the world. This is ridiculous. The economy would in fact be in a far better place if Inflation were decreased and wages raised.


Rewrite the Budget to balance it. Too much money going to defense (which most of it is not actually going to defense, but in the pockets of contractors and politicians. Balance it. Get rid of everything that is unnecessary.


Education needs better funding. The school system continues to decay. Our children are our future, yet we are so caught up in our current bottom line we are disenfranchising them. We need to invest in them. We need smaller class sizes, better paid teachers, updated supplies, buildings that aren't falling apart, etc. We need free colleges and trade schools, so we aren't burdening our workforce. I think doing that will also allow the economy to truly prosper.


Change the tax codes so big corporations and the rich pay their fare share. Remove loopholes Giving large companies tax breaks where they pay no taxes does little in most instances for the employees who see little to no benefit. Corporations like Wal-Mart, McDonalds, Starbucks, etc do what is beneficial to them, not to their employees. They keep that money and get richer. Don't tell me they can't afford to take care of employees if they have to pay taxes either. They are billion dollar industries.


Withdraw most troops from the middle east in a measured fashion. Leave only necessary support.


Instead of dropping out of all trade agreements, creating a volatile situation, just to pout and whine is not progressive. Renegotiate trade agreements that aren't fair. Insist other countries pay their way. Be a assertive but not a bully.


Immigration needs to be fixed. More judges to hear cases. Instead of a useless wall, update technology at the border and at sea, bolster security checkpoints (most drugs are smuggled through checkpoints and by sea), have soldiers patrol the border.

Let kids stay with their parents. No for profit immigration jails made out of old Walmarts and full of cages. Better pathways to citizenship. We are a land of immigrants. Our ancestors all came from elsewhere.


Free Healthcare like Canada for those who want it. Allow those who want to keep their's to do so. (I find this interesting though. If someome is guaranteed free health care that covers everything and is better than what they are on, why not take it? The only two reasons I can think of. Fear, i.e. you don't believe it will be better. That or Principle...which is just stubborness, buy hey I digress.)

Don't make it law everyone has to have healthcare. That will just cause people to not want it.

You too Chris. Sorry, out of time, but ill get you a detailed worthy response within the next week. . Lots of topics and thoughts you broached upon each deserving its own detailed response.

 

[Orion Bailey]

The difference is that at the end of WWII we had a lot returning soldiers who could contribute to our economy and a GI Bill that would facilitate that. We also had an economy that was going from a war time footing to a peace time footing so our economy could recover from our vast national debt. We don't have that now while we do have an aging population with more people retiring and fewer to replace the retiring taxpayers. Our recovery is going to be a whole lot more painful.

Not sure which portion of my very long post you were responding too, Lanny, but I don't necessarily disagree with you. WWII had its own economic pitfalls to recover that are completely different than today's issues, which will likely require a completely different pathway to resolutuion.

 

[Lanny]

Not sure which portion of my very long post you were responding too, Lanny, but I don't necessarily disagree with you. WWII had its own economic pitfalls to recover that are completely different than today's issues, which will likely require a completely different pathway to resolutuion.

I'm not responding to you so much as making a comment on an observation about your Forbes graph.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I'm not responding to you so much as making a comment on an observation about your Forbes graph.

Understood. Yeah its obvious why the last spike came to be. True world conflict. This time though its less obvious as the graph shows it starting near the end of Bush Jr and skyrocketing during Obama, then leveling off a bit. So what Happened there that caused the deficit to increase so dramatically? Several factions I'm thinking. Foriegn conflict and increased foreign aid spending being a large portion of it.

 

[Lanny]

Understood. Yeah its obvious why the last spike came to be. True world conflict. This time though its less obvious as the graph shows it starting near the end of Bush Jr and skyrocketing during Obama, then leveling off a bit. So what Happened there that caused the deficit to increase so dramatically? Several factions I'm thinking. Foriegn conflict and increased foreign aid spending being a large portion of it.

Obama was dealing with an economic crisis threatening a worse recession than the 1939 one while Trump, who created our worst deficit ever and guaranteed we'd have huge deficits far into the future because of his reckless taxation policies, was dealing with a recovered economy. This is going to lead to cuts in Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid and all sorts of government assistance which Trump promised would never get cut. How can people fall for this. It's as if they belonged in a cult.

 

[calvin natt]

Do you actually think that comments like this are a positive way to get me, or anyone, to want to listen or be open minded to anything you or anyone that agrees with you says? Do you not see that in making statements like this, do you not only help to push people like me further in the other direction, but you completely undermine any true and endearing peaceable conversation any of your peers may be seeking. Your blind hatred for Trump is the enemy you fight so hard against. Do you not see that it is your very hatred of Trump and how you express it that will help to get him reelected?

You choose the way you decide to engage in debate with those who do not share your ideals. You can either look to discuss in detail situations or current issues in place and try to come up with a compromising solution, or you can just toss yourself on the floor and have a tantrum because someone might disagree with you on certain things.

Let me ask you this, because you have often referenced Trump being a liar and a cheat and lacking morality for the office( Whicxh I don't disagree with) . Did you vote for Bill Clinton? IF so, how do you feel about that, knowing he disgraced the oval office and the office of the presidency when we openly lied about not having sexual relations IN THE WHITE HOUSE, effectively having an affair with his wife?

Now me, I voted for Clinton. I thought he was changing the economy( I was young and naive), but also because I don't think ones personal life is of great relevance when it comes to a sexual nature. If he is able to resolve it with his wife, then that is all he needs to answer to.
With that said, I find it extremely hypocritical when people make statements like lacking morality, but totally dismiss Clintons actions in the Whitehouse. There shouldn't be an argument involving morality if one is to discuss the Dems being morally superior to the Republicans. Both have shown to put leaders in the office with various defects to their morality and been supported by their party regardless.
So to swing the morality card around with such great frequency just shows the shortsightedness and lack of historical memory to the office and who was preceded, one has.

You are a disappointment to my OP and bipartisan progress in general. Rather than seizing the opportunity to state your case about how and why your ideologies can improve our way of life moving forward, you chose to ignorantly label me as a Trump supporter, of which I'm not, and close the door on any constructive discussions and/or debate. Anyone who takes an ideological stance similar to yours and has a true admirable agenda, should be ashamed of your portrayal of your common goal with them of getting Trump out of office.

You just don't get it. I WANT HIM OUT TOO! I just want him out with reasonable and thought out ideals, rather than moral hatred from those who find themselves morally superior. That, to me, isnt enough of a justification to just vote for anyone else. I need some confidence the person I'm voting for will actually be better or I might be struck with Trumps Biszerko and I don't want that any more than I want Trump in office.

Don' put me down because I want to learn more about what the Dems have to offer, before I just jump in line like some Trump hating zombie, ready to follow blindy, anyone waving an anti maga flag. Sorry Im not that gullible....You have to bring something better to the table than that....

“Blind hatred”. Do you know what that means? Cuz this isn’t blind.
No i didn’t vote for bill clinton.
Do your own research as to why other people are better candidates. Nobody here is going to change your mind. And yes I am morally superior to Trump. What else you got?

 

[Stevenson]

Most of what you said sounded fantastic in its own little soundbite on its own. The magic ten words to sell off of. Its the next ten i'm looking for. HOW will you make these things come into fruition . What is the plan of action, angle or pathway to achieve these statements of future greatness?

That's what i'm looking for.

Ridiculous. You wasted so much of our collective time.

You didn't want a better a better plan or to be shown some better way. That was 100% BS. Reading the thread, you obviously just wanted a shticky way to reinforce your beliefs under the illusion that you were being open minded.

That was my thoughtful answer. Sorry it didn't meet your standards, professor. That's how I analyze it. You want something better or more specific? Go to Bernie.com or Biden.com or whatever.

Let's try it this way: Please prove to me why Trump's economic and climate change plans are better. And why his pathological lying is not detrimental to our institutions and country. Be specific and cite sources please. What, you don't what to to that? So surprising.

You weren't serious at all or looking for a serious discussion.

But like a dummy, I fell for the bait.

 

[calvin natt]

Ridiculous. You wasted so much of our collective time.

You didn't want a better a better plan or to be shown some better way. That was 100% BS. You just wanted a new way to reinforce your beliefs under the illusion that you were being open minded.

That was my thoughtful answer. Sorry it didn't meet your standards, professor. That's how I analyze it. You want something better or more specific? Go to Bernie.com or Biden.com or whatever.

Let's try it this way: Please prove to me why Trump's economic and climate change plans are better. And why his pathological lying is not detrimental to our institutions and country. Be specific and cite sources please. What, you don't what to to that? So surprising.

You weren't serious at all or looking for a serious discussion.

But like a dummy, I fell for the bait.

Ditto

 

[Hoopguru]

Setting goals is the easy part.
Objective tactics, responsibilities & time lines are the tougher parts.

example:
Goal- remove trump from office
Tactics - ?

 

[Orion Bailey]

“Blind hatred”. Do you know what that means? Cuz this isn’t blind.
No i didn’t vote for bill clinton.
Do your own research as to why other people are better candidates. Nobody here is going to change your mind. And yes I am morally superior to Trump. What else you got?

You are right. Not Blind Hatred. Your Informed hatred has made you blind to anyone who disagrees with you having anyh valid points.

What else I got? Well about 75% of my post that you conveniently dismissed because you had no answer and it doesn't fit your narrative.

Other than that I got nothing for you because you ignored the initial post and its obvious you are just trolling and not wanting an actual mature constructive debate.

Good Day Sir.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Ridiculous. You wasted so much of our collective time.

You didn't want a better a better plan or to be shown some better way. That was 100% BS. Reading the thread, you obviously just wanted a shticky way to reinforce your beliefs under the illusion that you were being open minded.

That was my thoughtful answer. Sorry it didn't meet your standards, professor. That's how I analyze it. You want something better or more specific? Go to Bernie.com or Biden.com or whatever.

Let's try it this way: Please prove to me why Trump's economic and climate change plans are better. And why his pathological lying is not detrimental to our institutions and country. Be specific and cite sources please. What, you don't what to to that? So surprising.

You weren't serious at all or looking for a serious discussion.

But like a dummy, I fell for the bait.

Okay, so lets get this straight. You gave me a bunch of generalized thoughts. I broke them down and responded in detail to them, including my thoughts, with links and explanations as to why I might agree or disagree. I agreed with a few comments and the ones I didnt, I explained why. And in turn you state this is ridiculous in a generalized format wihtout detailing my post? And you tell me I dont want a serious discussion? Okay whatever man.

Now, to answer your question about putting it another way.... I don't need to. Im not the one screaming in every thread every day that the Dems are evil. If someone is goign to claim another sect is eveil eveyrday, you better damned well be prepared to offer solutions and other ideas or get off your high horse.

You and Calvin have proven to have very miniscule debating skills, as I broke down your post very succinctly and provided detailed answers or thoughts to what you said. Its not my problem, you think painting others with broad strokes like Antifa is okay and a good way to debate.

When you are ready for a mature and constructive debate, im here. Until then, take your Antifa debating tactics to the streets. They do no good in a forum where all youy have are words.



Lastly, for both you and Calvin, when Trump isn't president in 5 or so years, and the world hasn't ended, I hope you look back at your behavior and tactics here and understand how off you guys were. I mean Calvins behavior on here is borderline obsessive and certainly not healthy.

And that is what I call Blind Hatred. Blind to your own behavior based on your opinions having provided a rage of hate. Get control of your emo folks.......

 

[calvin natt]

Lol

 

[Stevenson]

You and Calvin have proven to have very miniscule debating skills, as I broke down your post very succinctly and provided detailed answers or thoughts to what you said. Its not my problem, you think painting others with broad strokes like Antifa is okay and a good way to debate.

When you are ready for a mature and constructive debate, im here. Until then, take your Antifa debating tactics to the streets. They do no good in a forum where all youy have are words.

OB, again, you prove my point. I debate for a living. I am an attorney. I know how to construct an argument, and that is what I did. Sorry if you think that makes me Antifa or whatever, but the fact of the matter is that I am an avowed and quite successful capitalist, and debater, and have defended many a corporation. This just shows me again that you weren't serious.

But I am willing to have you prove me wrong, so I will ask again:

Please prove to me why Trump's economic and climate change plans are better. And why his pathological lying is not detrimental to our institutions and country. Be specific and cite sources please.

 

[calvin natt]

OB, again, you prove my point. I debate for a living. I am an attorney. I know how to construct an argument, and that is what I did. Sorry if you think that makes me Antifa or whatever, but the fact of the matter is that I am an avowed and quite successful capitalist, and debater, and have defended many a corporation. This just shows me again that you weren't serious.

But I am willing to have you prove me wrong, so I will ask again:

Please prove to me why Trump's economic and climate change plans are better. And why his pathological lying is not detrimental to our institutions and country. Be specific and cite sources please.

Haaaa. So good.

 

[Propagandist]

OB, again, you prove my point. I debate for a living. I am an attorney. I know how to construct an argument, and that is what I did. Sorry if you think that makes me Antifa or whatever, but the fact of the matter is that I am an avowed and quite successful capitalist, and debater, and have defended many a corporation. This just shows me again that you weren't serious.

But I am willing to have you prove me wrong, so I will ask again:

Please prove to me why Trump's economic and climate change plans are better. And why his pathological lying is not detrimental to our institutions and country. Be specific and cite sources please.

My man.

 

[calvin natt]

Okay, so lets get this straight. You gave me a bunch of generalized thoughts. I broke them down and responded in detail to them, including my thoughts, with links and explanations as to why I might agree or disagree. I agreed with a few comments and the ones I didnt, I explained why. And in turn you state this is ridiculous in a generalized format wihtout detailing my post? And you tell me I dont want a serious discussion? Okay whatever man.

Now, to answer your question about putting it another way.... I don't need to. Im not the one screaming in every thread every day that the Dems are evil. If someone is goign to claim another sect is eveil eveyrday, you better damned well be prepared to offer solutions and other ideas or get off your high horse.

You and Calvin have proven to have very miniscule debating skills, as I broke down your post very succinctly and provided detailed answers or thoughts to what you said. Its not my problem, you think painting others with broad strokes like Antifa is okay and a good way to debate.

When you are ready for a mature and constructive debate, im here. Until then, take your Antifa debating tactics to the streets. They do no good in a forum where all youy have are words.



Lastly, for both you and Calvin, when Trump isn't president in 5 or so years, and the world hasn't ended, I hope you look back at your behavior and tactics here and understand how off you guys were. I mean Calvins behavior on here is borderline obsessive and certainly not healthy.

And that is what I call Blind Hatred. Blind to your own behavior based on your opinions having provided a rage of hate. Get control of your emo folks.......

There is literally no chance in 5 years I will regret whatever I felt about Donald trump. Antifa? Lazy.
Also, you’ll be thrilled to know I have NEVER voted for a Democrat. BUT I am not open minded to something new? The guy who didn’t vote for Clinton’s or Obama? You see, I watch, listen, learn, from new opinions based on what IS happening and CHANGE. Do you? Nope. Anyway, thanks again for wasting everyone’s time with your fake “sell me” post.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

OK, @Orion Bailey, here's what I have to say:

If you want peace, prosperity, and social progress, you would vote Democratic.

And I can prove it to you:

The Clinton years, the 90s, gave us that. No war, and balanced budget to boot (due to a budget that every Republican voted against.) He gave W. a surplus. W. not only wasted that surplus on a silly tax cut for the rich, but when we were attacked by Al Qaeda, W invaded the wrong country, Iraq, giving us two endless wars.

The GOP wastes money and gets us into war. Every time.

In addition, W was horrible during Katrina, and when the world economy was on the brink of collapse, it took the incoming Obama admin to make the hard calls, save the auto industry, bail out the banks, and keep us out of a depression. Obama also gave us Obamacae, which despite its faults, is popular and keeps millions insured. Yes, his economic recovery was tepid, but at least we slowed down Iran's building of a bomb by 15 years - Trump's policy ended it at 5 years.

Aside from Trump's obvious and deep personal and political flaws, what do we have? Attacking our allies, N. Korea closer to a bomb, Iran closer to a bomb, NATO in disarray, xenpohobia and anti-semitism on the rise at home. Yes, no doubt the economy is strong, but the deficit is crazy big now and the GOP no longer stands for anything that it used to - fiscal constraint, strong defense, respect for tradition, prudence. The GOP loves Russia now for crying out loud.

With the Republicans, you always get budget busting and wars, because that's where their profit is. Dems fix the problems the GOP make.

With a Democrat, you would get expanded health care options (but no, no medicare for all, that would never pass.) You would get a more normal alliance driven foreign policy, Putin in check, leaders would not laugh at the president in summits, the rich would be taxed more, consumers would be given more of a voice, the middle class would truly be the concern, not the richest of the rich, bigots, anti-semites, and racists would not be called “very good people on the other side.”

And of course, and not least, climate change would be given the urgent priority that it requires.

Sounds 1000% better to me.

I don't think you're really telling the whole truth here.
If I want peace vote a democrat, was Obama a president of Peace, did he not bomb Syria with reportedly like 30k bombs?
https://www.cnn.com/2014/09/23/politics/countries-obama-bombed/index.html

I'd actually venture to guess that Trump has done a lot less bombing then Obama did. I believe that a Democrat got us into Vietnam (I could be wrong there). I don't think you can really say with a straight face that the DNC is a serious contender for "peace" neither side really is.

I never know what to make of the economical part of politics, I think the president doesn't have nearly the effect on it as people tend to say they do. I'll say this though, it's weird to me that you praise Obama for all the bailouts when Bush started it. They both failed the common man of the republic by keeping their rich friends rich and making the gap of the "rich" and "poor" wider and wider.

I don't at all think that Obama was the boogeyman, I actually personally thought he seemed like a nice guy (same with Bush TBH).

Your assertion is that the "Dems" fix all the problems the GOP make is so ridiculous in my opinion, it's picking and choosing the facts you want to tell, while not being honest about the totality of the nation's problems is bigger than one side or the other, and they each have their fair share of skeletons to hide.

Oh, and Social progress is a very, very ambiguous set of terms that ties back to morality and what's right or wrong, who decides right or wrong, and is a much bigger topic than politics.

I think you're absolutely wrong if you think that voting a Democrat means, "Putin, Xi, and other world leaders and sort of enemies" would be held in check all of a sudden because a Democrat is a president.

You sure won't convince me to vote for a Democrat so maybe this is a pointless argument for both of us (I wouldn't vote for a Republican / Trump either), but I think you are somewhat guilty of only telling the side of the story you like, which I'll admit is fair if you're making an argument.

 

[Orion Bailey]

OB, again, you prove my point. I debate for a living. I am an attorney. I know how to construct an argument, and that is what I did. Sorry if you think that makes me Antifa or whatever, but the fact of the matter is that I am an avowed and quite successful capitalist, and debater, and have defended many a corporation. This just shows me again that you weren't serious.

But I am willing to have you prove me wrong, so I will ask again:

Please prove to me why Trump's economic and climate change plans are better. And why his pathological lying is not detrimental to our institutions and country. Be specific and cite sources please.

what about the op do you not comprehend? I never said or hinted that trumps plans are better. So I'm not sure of your point.
Ot much need in explaining anything further if you, a self label professional debater, cant understand the intent of the op i clearly spelled out in several posts.
One more time in case you simply missed it.
Im not. Trump supporter, but im a republican for my ideological beliefs. I stated in another post i don't like trump.
So i don't understand the point of your question? To try to corner me into admitting he is a bad president? I already said that!!

i don't know many of the details of the democratic format because all i hear. Out is trump this and trump that.

If you cant answer the op without trying to twist things around, well then you are a good lawyer, not debater. A lawyer tries to hide facts that contradict their argument. A debater wants all the facts laid out to discuss.

just because you are a lawyer doesn't mean jack. Most anyone knows lawyers only divulge what they need to legally to support their case.

i asked legit questions in the op aNd you have yet to answer them.
go back to court. You have yet to answer anything here.....

my man.

i have others in this thread who are proving more Civilized aNd showing the want of a mature debate. Ill focus on them.

thanks for the effort.

 

[H.C.]

lol...
I've read two posts in this thread and have already found the same back and forth that turns people off to politics.

OB stated a question.
A response he got was.
"No you''

Time to ask for a refund on that higher education... Even a elementary school kid can fire stuff like that out in a debate.

 

[calvin natt]

lol...
I've read two posts in this thread and have already found the same back and forth that turns people off to politics.

OB stated a question.
A response he got was.
"No you''

Time to ask for a refund on that higher education... Even a elementary school kid can fire stuff like that out in a debate.

I’ll gladly answer most questions. But not this one. Impossible to answer and potentially influence someone who needs to even ask it in the first place.

 

[Hobbesarable]

I’ll gladly answer most questions. But not this one. Impossible to answer and potentially influence someone who needs to even ask it in the first place.

Oh boy!

You checked out of the thread long ago.

 

[Hobbesarable]

Everytime?

It was dem presidents that took us into WW1, WW2, Korea, and Vietnam the worst 6 years of my life.

Plus it was a dem president that has done something no one else has done. Drop a nuclear bomb on a city.

Dropping history knowledge.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I’ll gladly answer most questions. But not this one. Impossible to answer and potentially influence someone who needs to even ask it in the first place.

one last ditch effort.

so i may have made the mistake in my op of asking for a better plan than trump has. I did not mean that to seem like i think trump has some great plan and i can see how it might have seemed that way based on the context of the convo in that other thread.

i should have asked to sell me on a democratic cMpaign platform that is better than the republicans. Not Trump.

i dont care about trump. I don't have vitriol like some, but i don't think he is a good president by any means overall. But like most presidents, i have found myself on both sides of the battle, depending on the battle. Foreign relations, border control, etc.

I wanted and have wanted to put him aside and debate the political ideologies of each party.

im asking you and others to sell me on a better plan for the future. Im not sure why you think that is so hard or impossible to answer.
Pick a topic of debate and lets go from there.

If you are not willing or able to do that, then any type of breakdown is on you.

If you want Trump out like i do, then this is the way. Im telling you you will gain more bees with honey than vinegar.

last chance. Ball is in your court.

 

[crandc]

Well, I did try and I didn't say anything nasty to you.