Semi-OT: Oden and team insanity

[Idog1976]

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_090727.html?rss=true

interesting opinion about Oden and Durant at Team USA.

Also right after the Oden and Durant piece there is something about AI being a back court mate with OJ Mayo. I have to laugh because it's like a madman's dream come true. Memphis is seriously starting to make Isaiah's Knicks seem like an honest try. It's a pity that they can't resign Miles and maybe Qyntel Woods to really go for it. Isaiah's mantle is right there Wallace, claim what is rightfully yours!

 

[MAS RipCity]

KD being better than LeBron?
This is why no one takes sam smith seriously
Give me a call when Durant's team does better with him on the floor than without him or when he picks up this concept we refer to as defense.
TMac 2.0, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[blue32]

Out played by Brooke Lopez? ouch....

 

[Nikolokolus]

Lopez' 18 points are nice and all, but 4 boards = outplaying Oden? I guess I'd call it a draw, having not seen the game.

 

[blue32]

Yeah, I mean is Oden playing w/Durant? Could that be why he isn't touching the ball offensively?

 

[Shooter]

That's a pretty sobering assessment of Oden. I hope he's wrong, but you'd have to say that so far Oden has been a big disappointment. I'm crossing my fingers for him this season, and hoping that he has a break-out year.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

It's funny because there is that infamous video showing the Blazers getting the #1 pick that keeps popping up on this forum (and the old one) As fun as that video is to watch . . . Blazers ending up #2 would have been the real lottery win.

Oh well, it's not like the Blazers just lost the #1 pick . . . Oden still helps a team (at his current level) and at that size has incredible potential.

Maybe the Miller signing will turn out like the draft. Blazers wanted Hedo (the #1 pick) when really Miller (the #2 or #3 pick) will work out better.

 

[hasoos]

How many times in a row did Lopez team get a stop? If I remember right, Greg anchored some crazy stretch of 10 striaght stops that all the coaches were buzzing about. The game isn't all about scoring.

 

[Masbee]

It's funny because there is that infamous video showing the Blazers getting the #1 pick that keeps popping up on this forum (and the old one) As fun as that video is to watch . . . Blazers ending up #2 would have been the real lottery win.

Oh well, it's not like the Blazers just lost the #1 pick . . . Oden still helps a team (at his current level) and at that size has incredible potential.

Maybe the Miller signing will turn out like the draft. Blazers wanted Hedo (the #1 pick) when really Miller (the #2 or #3 pick) will work out better.

So, since you can't have two Alpha scorers on a team, and since Roy turned out to be an All-NBA caliber talent, and since neither Roy or Durant are Pippen-like in their ability to impact the game without scoring a single bucket....

which of the two would you be trading down the line, for, oh, I don't know, let's say, a center?

 

[oldmangrouch]

Out played by Brooke Lopez? ouch....

I believe there is a provision in the CBA that covers this.

If you are out-played by a kid from Stanford, you must appear at the hottest club in town, accompanied by a 90 year old hooker dressed as nun. Unless you are in California, in which case you can substitute a 90 year old nun dressed as a hooker.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Lopez' 18 points are nice and all, but 4 boards = outplaying Oden? I guess I'd call it a draw, having not seen the game.

Meh. Oden got out-played. Just accept it and move on. Won't be the last time.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Meh. Oden got out-played. Just accept it and move on. Won't be the last time.

Outplayed how? If Oden's team had lost while he was on the floor, then obviously you would be right. But I get the impression that while Oden was in the lineup his team won. It was only while he sat out most of the third quarter (and JaVale McGee got a run) that the other team went on a huge tear.

You do know that Basketball is a team game, right?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Comparing Durant to T-Mac isn't even fair - McGrady has more guard skills, greater athleticism (and I know Durant is pretty damn athletic) and has been a far better defender than Durant.

Durant is a hard player to compare, and I think his uniqueness causes a lot of people to overrate him. He's essentially a 6'10" Eddie House. The nearest comparison I can come up with is George Gervin, another tall skinny shooter with guard skills and little defense.

But yes, Sam Smith just lost what little credibility he had left with that LeBron comment.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Following up from that previous thought:

I think people look at Durant and see how effortlessly he plays and how smooth his shot is. He's a natural on the court. Then they look at Oden. Big, clumsy Oden, tripping over his own feet and bobbling balls out of bounds and think "he's a sad joke". They seem to ignore the fact that Oden's teams do better with him than Durant's do with him.

 

[WarriorFan]

So, since you can't have two Alpha scorers on a team, and since Roy turned out to be an All-NBA caliber talent, and since neither Roy or Durant are Pippen-like in their ability to impact the game without scoring a single bucket....

which of the two would you be trading down the line, for, oh, I don't know, let's say, a center?

I think Roy could excell in a second fiddle role. That's not an insult to Roy, but his playmaking ability, ability to control tempo, and the fact that he looks like he could become a really good defender, guarding the best backcourt player on the other team, make me think he could definately be Pippen-esque.

He could also help to control Durant, feeding him while he's hot and carrying the scoring load when he's not.

 

[Idog1976]

Following up from that previous thought:

I think people look at Durant and see how effortlessly he plays and how smooth his shot is. He's a natural on the court. Then they look at Oden. Big, clumsy Oden, tripping over his own feet and bobbling balls out of bounds and think "he's a sad joke". They seem to ignore the fact that Oden's teams do better with him than Durant's do with him.

Darn it Rasta, quit giving nuanced analysis that makes sense! It's hard for me to follow, can't we just talk about imaginary trades or something?

Durant obviously is better then LBJ who is better then Jordan which means Durant should win 17 rings.

And obviously scoring 18 alot of them on McGee and grabbing 4 boards = beating Oden who had 7pts 10reb and 1 block (2 as they erased one and called it a foul) and 1 steal.

/sarcasm

Seriously though people who watched it didn't say Lopez outplayed Oden. They said one was far better on offense and one was far better at defense and rebounding.

 

[BIG Q]

Darn it Rasta, quit giving nuanced analysis that makes sense! It's hard for me to follow, can't we just talk about imaginary trades or something?

Durant obviously is better then LBJ who is better then Jordan which means Durant should win 17 rings.

And obviously scoring 18 alot of them on McGee and grabbing 4 boards = beating Oden who had 7pts 10reb and 1 block (2 as they erased one and called it a foul) and 1 steal.

/sarcasm

Seriously though people who watched it didn't say Lopez outplayed Oden. They said one was far better on offense and one was far better at defense and rebounding.

Actually, a couple of ESPN writers did say that Lopez outplayed Oden. Of course they only cited offensive numbers.

 

[Masbee]

I think Roy could excell in a second fiddle role. That's not an insult to Roy, but his playmaking ability, ability to control tempo, and the fact that he looks like he could become a really good defender, guarding the best backcourt player on the other team, make me think he could definately be Pippen-esque.

He could also help to control Durant, feeding him while he's hot and carrying the scoring load when he's not.

First, I know Scottie Pippen, and Brandon Roy is no Scottie Pippen.

Sorry.

Your explanation is true as far as it goes. It essentially boils down to: put two really, really good players together and they won't suck.

What I question is if they would beat great teams.

Who takes the last shot?

Who has the ball in their hands in the 4th quarter?

Neither is a point guard.

Neither is a lock-down defender - and never will be.

Asking either player to stand around and watch the other guy is not maximizing their value.

The two of them together would be good, but their team would not contend unless they had a very good big.

Which puts you back to square one.

Why have two Ferraris when you can only drive one on Sundays? Why have two Ferraris when you like to go into the backcountry from time to time. Wouldn't it be better to have one Ferrari and one 4x4?

You still have two vehicles. They each do something great. They are different.

When building a team that is what you need.

You only have two Ferraris if you already have the killer 4x4 and a sedan and still have money left over.

 

[Blazer_Hippie]

1st the ridiculous - KD > LBJ ...that's stupid.

But, I did watch both USA practice videos and the scrimmage. From the videos available (which were not complete) it did look like G.O. was generally outplayed a bit. I'm basing this purely on watching the plays and how he looked. I never checked any stats from the scrimmage. I think stats are WAY less important than looking at Greg's footwork, speed and positioning. He's a little bit improved from last year, but I fear the hype machine is starting to roll like it did last year and I think those expectations are very unrealistic. He's going to be better, but nowhere near a dominant force...

 

[Sug]

Lopez having a more polished offensive game is nothing new, and I don't expect that will change in the next 15 years. Oden has the potential to become a dominant rebounder, shot blocker, and defender. He will probably be a career 10 to 12 ppg guy for several reasons. If he does ever develop a post game then he will be a top 10 NBA player. At this point you don't want to throw the ball into Oden and have him create a shot, maybe 4 times a game. You do want to have him get putbacks from offensive boards, and get easy dunks from his man having to help.

People are so quick to hate Oden because he is not an offensive player, those people are like chicks that dig the long ball.

 

[Hank The Dwarf]

Lopez having a more polished offensive game is nothing new, and I don't expect that will change in the next 15 years. Oden has the potential to become a dominant rebounder, shot blocker, and defender. He will probably be a career 10 to 12 ppg guy for several reasons. If he does ever develop a post game then he will be a top 10 NBA player. At this point you don't want to throw the ball into Oden and have him create a shot, maybe 4 times a game. You do want to have him get putbacks from offensive boards, and get easy dunks from his man having to help.

People are so quick to hate Oden because he is not an offensive player, those people are like chicks that dig the long ball.

Glad to see you guys are finally starting to come around to the fact that Oden is a role player.... now, there is nothing wrong with Role Players - they help you win games - they are extremely important.. however - Oden was drafted #1 overall - above a kid in Durant who has limitless potential and was a SURE FIRE superstar.

That is what I have always had a problem with.. guys like Oden are way more easily found than guys like Durant.

We made a mistake.

 

[gatorpops]

Glad to see you guys are finally starting to come around to the fact that Oden is a role player.... now, there is nothing wrong with Role Players - they help you win games - they are extremely important.. however - Oden was drafted #1 overall - above a kid in Durant who has limitless potential and was a SURE FIRE superstar.

That is what I have always had a problem with.. guys like Oden are way more easily found than guys like Durant.

We made a mistake.

I can name only two or three that are similar to Oden in the NBA.

There are like, 6 - 10 guys like Durant (at this stage of his career) in the NBA.

Durant is more developed at this stage in the things he does well than Oden, but a couple of years from now my guess is that Oden will have the more appeal to more teams than will Durant. IMO!

 

[WarriorFan]

I agree with you that you can't have nothing inside if you want to contend but you can get by with a serviceable big as long as you have two stars to go with him

First, I know Scottie Pippen, and Brandon Roy is no Scottie Pippen.

Sorry.

Your explanation is true as far as it goes. It essentially boils down to: put two really, really good players together and they won't suck.

What I question is if they would beat great teams.

Who takes the last shot?

Durant, he's the better scorer, as least I think he will be

Who has the ball in their hands in the 4th quarter?

Roy, creating for Durant

Neither is a point guard.

True, but Roy is your best playmaker. And we're talking about Oden and Durant, either way you don't have a PG

Neither is a lock-down defender - and never will be.

OK, I don't know Roy well enough to say he could or couldn't be. I'll take your word for it but I thought he looked like he had some defensive potential

Asking either player to stand around and watch the other guy is not maximizing their value.

Roy can't do everything by himself and Oden doesn't look like he'll ever be that second star. A serviceable big, yes, but not a #2 option. Maybe LMA will be that guy?

The two of them together would be good, but their team would not contend unless they had a very good big.

True, but I don't think Roy/Oden can win without another star. A decent big is easier to find than another star player who can carry a team for stretches.

Why have two Ferraris when you can only drive one on Sundays?

Not a big fan of that analogy. Having Roy work by him self will not get max production from the team, he needs someone else who can carry the load. A lot of stars won't operate well if they have to defer to someone else; I just think that with what roy brings to the table he can accomodate another star next to him. I certainly don't think he's good enough to contend by himself, with just solid role players around him.

 

[Minstrel]

Roy can't do everything by himself and Oden doesn't look like he'll ever be that second star.

So far, he does look like he will be a star down the line. As a rookie recovering from injury, he put up an 18 PER. And that actually underrates his play, since PER doesn't meaningfully account for defense and Oden's defense was very good.

His main problem was health and fouls, limiting his court time. Injuries could certainly sink his career, but I don't think it's reached the point where that should be expected. Foul troubles I definitely expect to decrease with increased experienced and full recovery from surgery.

 

[Hank The Dwarf]

I can name only two or three that are similar to Oden in the NBA.

There are like, 6 - 10 guys like Durant (at this stage of his career) in the NBA.

Durant is more developed at this stage in the things he does well than Oden, but a couple of years from now my guess is that Oden will have the more appeal to more teams than will Durant. IMO!

You can only name two or three NBA centers that average 8 and 7 , have slow feet, bad hands and poor work ethics? The NBA is littered with guys like that on almost every roster.

Please name the 6-10 guys in the NBA that are 20 years old and average 25+ ppg, 6+ Rebs on 48% FG and 42% 3pt.

 

[Blazer_Hippie]

So far, he does look like he will be a star down the line. As a rookie recovering from injury, he put up an 18 PER. And that actually underrates his play, since PER doesn't meaningfully account for defense and Oden's defense was very good.

His main problem was health and fouls, limiting his court time. Injuries could certainly sink his career, but I don't think it's reached the point where that should be expected. Foul troubles I definitely expect to decrease with increased experienced and full recovery from surgery.

I love Greg...cheer for him every game...was excited when we drafted him..etc. I just think it's a stretch to say that he looks like he'll be "a star down the line." I'd be happy at this point to see him actually become an above average starting center.

 

[Ed O]

I love Greg...cheer for him every game...was excited when we drafted him..etc. I just think it's a stretch to say that he looks like he'll be "a star down the line." I'd be happy at this point to see him actually become an above average starting center.

His advanced stats look very good. By "looks", if one means "using eyeballs", then I would agree with you... he looks awkward and unsure of himself.

If, though, but "looks" one means "projects", then the stats say in SPITE of the eyeball test he had a very effective year last season when he was on the floor. His rebounding and his ability to draw fouls were both very impressive, and given his age he should only get better.

Ed O.

 

[The Sebastian Express]

His advanced stats look very good. By "looks", if one means "using eyeballs", then I would agree with you... he looks awkward and unsure of himself.

If, though, but "looks" one means "projects", then the stats say in SPITE of the eyeball test he had a very effective year last season when he was on the floor. His rebounding and his ability to draw fouls were both very impressive, and given his age he should only get better.

Ed O.

I think it may take a couple of years for Greg to look not 'awkward' on offense, but even if that never develops he's still going to have to be doubled or shadowed just based on his size and strength. He will always draw fouls just because the other team doesn't want him to get an easy two, and that is an invaluable trait regardless if he develops any consistent post moves.

 

[Blazer_Hippie]

I think it may take a couple of years for Greg to look not 'awkward' on offense, but even if that never develops he's still going to have to be doubled or shadowed just based on his size and strength. He will always draw fouls just because the other team doesn't want him to get an easy two, and that is an invaluable trait regardless if he develops any consistent post moves.

That definition would be what I call an "above average" center depending on the degree and amount of disruption he causes on defense.

 

[Minstrel]

I love Greg...cheer for him every game...was excited when we drafted him..etc. I just think it's a stretch to say that he looks like he'll be "a star down the line."

I used the word "looks" in response to the person I was responding to using that word, not to convey how he appears to the eye. I agree that he looks awkward on the court. Ultimately, it's not appearances that matter, it's actual production. His production when on the court was strong...and for a rookie who was recovering from surgery, it was consistent with a future star.

That doesn't mean he actually will become a star. Nothing is guaranteed. But he was billed as a star talent by the scouting community and his first season didn't contradict that scouting consensus. He "looked" disappointing and his minutes played were disappointing...but his on-court production was actually very good.