Senators Whine About FCC's 25 Mbps Broadband Standard, Insist Nobody Needs That Much Bandwidth

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SlyPokerDog

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Just about a year ago, the FCC voted to raise the base definition of broadband from 4 Mbps downstream, 1 Mbps upstream -- to 25 Mbps downstream, 3 Mbps upstream. This, of course, annoyed the nation's mega providers, since the higher standard highlights the lack of competition and next-generation upgrades in countless markets. It especially annoyed the nation's phone companies, given that the expensive, sub-6 Mbps DSL foisted upon millions of customers can no longer even technically be called broadband.

Fast forward a year and the broadband providers' favorite politicians in the House are still whining about the improved definition. In a letter sent to the FCC last week (pdf), the six senators complained that the FCC is on a mad power grab, using a crazy and arbitrary new definition to saddle broadband providers with all manner of onerous regulations. Besides, argued the six Senators, 25 Mbps is more than any American consumer could ever possibly need:

"Looking at the market for broadband applications, we are aware of few applications that require download speeds of 25 Mbps. Netflix, for example, recommends a download speed of 5 Mbps to receive high-definition streaming video, and Amazon recommends a speed of 3.5 Mbps. In addition, according to the FCC's own data, the majority of Americans who can purchase 25 Mbps choose not to."

Focusing on the fact that a single Netflix stream eats just 3.5 to 5 Mbps ignores the fact that broadband connections serve an entire house of hungry users, many of whom will be gobbling significantly more bandwidth using any number of services and connected devices. It's also worth pointing out that a single Netflix Ultra HD stream can eat 25 Mbps all by itself. And on the upstream side of the equation, the FCC's definition of 3 Mbps remains relatively last-generation and arguably pathetic. Similarly, many consumers may not buy 25 Mbps because the lack of competition can result in high prices for faster tiers.

In other words, claiming 25 Mbps is some kind of "arbitrary," pie-in-the-sky standard is absurd.

Of course, the Senators don't really care about technical specifics, they're just blindly echoing the broadband industry's annoyance that the FCC is now actually highlighting the lack of broadband competition in the market. They're specifically bothered by this recent FCC study, which notes that two-thirds of U.S. households lack the choice of more than one ISP at speeds of 25 Mbps or greater. Companies like AT&T and Verizon also don't like how this data highlights the fact they're giving up on rural America and many second- and third-tier cities, freezing broadband deployments and in some cases even refusing to repair aging infrastructure.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...insist-nobody-needs-that-much-bandwidth.shtml
 
A single UHD stream from Netflix is 15.6mbits.

The guy who wrote the article is a clown.
 
"It's also worth pointing out that a single Netflix Ultra HD stream can eat 25 Mbps all by itself."

He's just wrong.

15.6mbit

https://technology.ihs.com/496648/netflix-goes-ultra-high-definition

With four times as many pixels, Netflix’s UHD video needs four times as much space to transmit the same video stream. What is typically shown for broadcast TV is 1080i50/60, Full HD video at 50 or 60 interlaced (half) frames per second. UHD is going to start with 2160p25/30, which means UHD resolution with 25 or 30 full frames (progressive scan). The resulting image is therefore just 4 times as much video, with a slightly different frame cadence. Netflix’s top tier HD stream is 5.8 Mbps at 1080p30, while UHD will be streamed at 15.6 Mbps. In order to achieve higher quality when the required bandwidth is otherwise four times higher, Netflix have utilised HEVC, which is approximately twice as efficient as the h.264/MPEG-4 used for its HD stream.

bitrate is not the be all/end all. Compression rates have doubled about every 5 years. MPEG 2 -> MPEG 4 -> HEVC.

A 10mbit HEVC stream buries a 10mbit MPEG 2 one. 4x better picture.
 
http://www.increasebroadbandspeed.co.uk/2012/graph-ADSL-speed-versus-distance

DSL is 24mbit download speed, but that depends on the distance from the home to the central office.

To provide 25 mbit would cost AT&T, Verizon, and any other phone company with copper infrastructure $billions and $billions of upgrades.

ADSL-adsl2-speed-against-distance.png
 
"It's also worth pointing out that a single Netflix Ultra HD stream can eat 25 Mbps all by itself."

He's just wrong.

15.6mbit

https://technology.ihs.com/496648/netflix-goes-ultra-high-definition

With four times as many pixels, Netflix’s UHD video needs four times as much space to transmit the same video stream. What is typically shown for broadcast TV is 1080i50/60, Full HD video at 50 or 60 interlaced (half) frames per second. UHD is going to start with 2160p25/30, which means UHD resolution with 25 or 30 full frames (progressive scan). The resulting image is therefore just 4 times as much video, with a slightly different frame cadence. Netflix’s top tier HD stream is 5.8 Mbps at 1080p30, while UHD will be streamed at 15.6 Mbps. In order to achieve higher quality when the required bandwidth is otherwise four times higher, Netflix have utilised HEVC, which is approximately twice as efficient as the h.264/MPEG-4 used for its HD stream.

bitrate is not the be all/end all. Compression rates have doubled about every 5 years. MPEG 2 -> MPEG 4 -> HEVC.

A 10mbit HEVC stream buries a 10mbit MPEG 2 one. 4x better picture.

http://www.increasebroadbandspeed.co.uk/2012/graph-ADSL-speed-versus-distance

DSL is 24mbit download speed, but that depends on the distance from the home to the central office.

To provide 25 mbit would cost AT&T, Verizon, and any other phone company with copper infrastructure $billions and $billions of upgrades.

ADSL-adsl2-speed-against-distance.png

So you agree with the senators, no one needs 25mbs.
 
So you agree with the senators, no one needs 25mbs.

That might be the floor for a short time. Navigations is moving to real time update of charts as changes are needed. So every vessel will need the ability to upgrade huge image files.
About 40,000 of them world wide. Holy Mackerel, just think of the data flow needed to keep an auto on autopilot up to date real time under all conditions.
You test it, not me.
 

The bitrate is 15.6mbits.

25 is good if you have 2 TVs streaming. Or one streaming and a LOT of other stuff going on at the same time.

You were over your head with the "my modem can't be hacked" argument and you're over your head here, too
 
I am sorry guys but everyone transferring the same friggin movie to every house everytime any person wants to see it should be illegal.
It just isn't right for such a hugh load, to be permitted for the ultimate frivolous reason.
 
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-streaming-201404063713.htm

So how does it look? You can’t cheat the physics of compression, especially given Netflix’s 4K streaming bitrate of 15.6 Mbps which is lower than that of well-transferred Blu-rays, albeit using the more efficient HEVC/h.265 codec.

http://blog.streamingmedia.com/2015/01/4k-streaming-bandwidth-problem.html

If you look at the HEVC testing that guys like Jan Ozer and Alex Zambelli have done, and look at the data Netflix has presented around their 4K encoding (Netflix’s current bitrate for 4K is 15.6Mbps), the bitrates won’t get down to 10-12Mbps anytime soon.

https://gigaom.com/2014/01/06/netflix-4k-ultra-hd-3d/

The company’s 4K content will stream with a bit rate of 15.6 Mbps. Currently, Netflix’s best-looking content streams with as much as 7 Mbps. However, devices that support 4K will use H.265 HEVC for regular HD content as well, which will actually save bandwidth for that kind of content.

"15.6, 15.6, 15.6"

It's 15.6.
 
The bitrate is 15.6mbits.

25 is good if you have 2 TVs streaming. Or one streaming and a LOT of other stuff going on at the same time.

You just get weird with this stuff.

You said the guy who wrote the article is wrong but Netflix says the exact same number.

And you're wrong about the modem thing. We were talking about routers. Yes, you can have a router and modem in one device but I do not. I have a separate modem that I own plugged into my router that I own. I lease noting from Comcast. And that is more secure.
 
I am sorry guys but everyone transferring the same friggin movie to every house everytime any person wants to see it should be illegal.
It just isn't right for such a hugh load, to be permitted for the ultimate frivolous reason.

It's the same as watching the same TV channel on more than one TV in the house.
 
You just get weird with this stuff.

You said the guy who wrote the article is wrong but Netflix says the exact same number.

And you're wrong about the modem thing. We were talking about routers. Yes, you can have a router and modem in one device but I do not. I have a separate modem that I own plugged into my router that I own. I lease noting from Comcast. And that is more secure.

Netflix says 10mbits more than you need because it works for sure. They don't want people calling and complaining about poor picture quality if the ISP is slammed from delivering netflix to too many people at once.

Your cable company can turn up your bandwidth to 25mbit or down to 5mbit from their office. If they can talk to your modem to change the bandwidth, so can hackers. Your belief in your security is not well founded.

If you care to do the research, the technology is DOCSIS (modem control) and they use TFTP to download a file into the modem to configure it. A hacker can TFTP malware into the modem if they cared to.
 
It's the same as watching the same TV channel on more than one TV in the house.

uh, only if you store it locally, after one transfer over the net. It isn't like a TV broadcast, parallel out as many times as men can want.
 
Your cable company can turn up your bandwidth to 25mbit or down to 5mbit from their office. If they can talk to your modem to change the bandwidth, so can hackers. Your belief in your security is not well founded.

If you care to do the research, the technology is DOCSIS (modem control) and they use TFTP to download a file into the modem to configure it. A hacker can TFTP malware into the modem if they cared to.

WTF are you even talking about?!? I know all about that. I had a hacked Motorola Surfboard modem 10 years about. Paid a guy $50 and got free internet for 2 years until Comcast went to DOCSIS 2.0. That's not what we were talking about. I know Comcast updates my modem regularly.

We were talking about the modem/router you rent from Comcast vs owning your own modem and router. You save money and it is more secure. Besides being an Apple fanboy you're for some odd reason a Comcast fanboy. My router is more secure than the router you rent from Comcast. It is also a better quality router, the Wifi is much better.
 
The real story is at the bottom of the OP. Since the FCC did this power grab, the providers are less and less willing to spend money to upgrade their infrastructure.

TWC promised MAXX here in San Diego in Q4 of 2015. I am not holding my breath to see when they'll deliver (or not).
 
WTF are you even talking about?!? I know all about that. I had a hacked Motorola Surfboard modem 10 years about. Paid a guy $50 and got free internet for 2 years until Comcast went to DOCSIS 2.0. That's not what we were talking about. I know Comcast updates my modem regularly.

We were talking about the modem/router you rent from Comcast vs owning your own modem and router. You save money and it is more secure. Besides being an Apple fanboy you're for some odd reason a Comcast fanboy. My router is more secure than the router you rent from Comcast. It is also a better quality router, the Wifi is much better.

It's not "more secure."

You are talking about something you simply know little about.
 
http://www.geek.com/news/cable-modems-can-be-hacked-549584/

After testing this trick on a few other cable modems, he decided that this was a security vulnerability because of the ability to capture data from other users on the attacker's node, or the ability to send huge amounts of data to a specified destination by taking control of the cable ISP's routers and gateway computers. Hallacy's report lays out in detail how to trick a DOCSIS-compliant cable modem into divulging its configuration file, then tells how to edit that file with an Open Source program.

AT&T Broadband spokesman Andrew Johnson stated that although it takes potential security threats very seriously, the company was still investigating Hallacy's claims and had no immediate comment. CableLabs, the developer of the DOCSIS standard, stated that although the problem is real, it is not because of vulnerabilities in the standard itself, but flaws in the way that cable operators implement their networks. A feature in the DOCSIS standard called “Shared Secret Keys” allows cable operators to prevent users from making the sort of changes which Hallacy describes. 3Com no longer sells cable modems, and Motorola stated it has been notified of and will comply with a requirement from CableLabs to implement a change to its products, preventing subscribers from making these types of changes.
 
Math.

15.6 is less than 25.

upload_2016-1-25_20-13-48.png

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It's not "more secure."

You are talking about something you simply know little about.

You're the one talking about modems when I was talking about routers.

I know that the wireless password from the Comcast Modem/Router was much shorter than the password I can set for my router. The longer the password the harder it is to hack.

You have my IP address, hack me if you think it's so easy.
 
http://www.geek.com/news/cable-modems-can-be-hacked-549584/

After testing this trick on a few other cable modems, he decided that this was a security vulnerability because of the ability to capture data from other users on the attacker's node, or the ability to send huge amounts of data to a specified destination by taking control of the cable ISP's routers and gateway computers. Hallacy's report lays out in detail how to trick a DOCSIS-compliant cable modem into divulging its configuration file, then tells how to edit that file with an Open Source program.

AT&T Broadband spokesman Andrew Johnson stated that although it takes potential security threats very seriously, the company was still investigating Hallacy's claims and had no immediate comment. CableLabs, the developer of the DOCSIS standard, stated that although the problem is real, it is not because of vulnerabilities in the standard itself, but flaws in the way that cable operators implement their networks. A feature in the DOCSIS standard called “Shared Secret Keys” allows cable operators to prevent users from making the sort of changes which Hallacy describes. 3Com no longer sells cable modems, and Motorola stated it has been notified of and will comply with a requirement from CableLabs to implement a change to its products, preventing subscribers from making these types of changes.

Again, I know modems can be hacked. I use to own a hacked modem. I got free internet from Comcast from it, this was 10-12 years ago. It ran DOCIS 1.0, stopped working when Comcast switched to DOCSIS 2.0.
 

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