Sergio ends season 7th in the league

[Iwatas]

In assists /48. Ahead of Ramon Sessions, Devin Harris, Andre Miller, and plenty of other great PGs.

Considering that Sergio definitely had a mixed year, that is a pretty significant accomplishment.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/stati...lit=0&season=2009&seasontype=2&avg=48&pos=all

Sergio is only 31st in ast/to -- Steve Blake is 5th in the league in that department, while out of the top 50 for assists/48.

iWatas

 

[LameR]

Roy's 17th in A/T ratio, and 1st among SGs.

 

[Shooter]

In assists /48. Ahead of Ramon Sessions, Devin Harris, Andre Miller, and plenty of other great PGs.

Considering that Sergio definitely had a mixed year, that is a pretty significant accomplishment.

I personally consider that statistic pretty meaningless. If Sergio had actually played more than 15 minutes a game, he probably would have had a ton of turnovers to go with his assists. And who knows if he'd still be productive in assists if he played the minutes of a starter? Some guys give you less and less production the longer they stay in a game, due to fatigue, lack of concentration, and the defense adjusting to them.

These kinds of statistics are very, very misleading. For example, if you added up Oden's rebounds, and calculated them per 48 minutes, he probably would have been the leading rebounder in the NBA. However, he could never stay out of foul trouble, and hence never would have averaged 48 minutes to begin with.

 

[KingSpeed]

I personally consider that statistic pretty meaningless. If Sergio had actually played more than 15 minutes a game, he probably would have had a ton of turnovers to go with his assists. And who knows if he'd still be productive in assists if he played the minutes of a starter? Some guys give you less and less production the longer they stay in a game, due to fatigue, lack of concentration, and the defense adjusting to them.

These kinds of statistics are very, very misleading. For example, if you added up Oden's rebounds, and calculated them per 48 minutes, he probably would have been the leading rebounder in the NBA. However, he could never stay out of foul trouble, and hence never would have averaged 48 minutes to begin with.

Exactly!! Someone in here told me that Oden's rookie season has been as good as Dwight Howard's which is FUCKING ridiculous. Howard averaged a fucking double double! But this poster said that they had the same per36 stats, but I think that's bullshit. Oden had 10 & 5 in the first half last night but he did NOT finish with 20 & 10.
I'm so fucking glad to hear from someone that gets this!!!! The per48/per36 stuff is bullshit.

 

[LameR]

Exactly!! Someone in here told me that Oden's rookie season has been as good as Dwight Howard's which is FUCKING ridiculous. Howard averaged a fucking double double! But this poster said that they had the same per36 stats, but I think that's bullshit. Oden had 10 & 5 in the first half last night but he did NOT finish with 20 & 10.
I'm so fucking glad to hear from someone that gets this!!!! The per48/per36 stuff is bullshit.

Chill pill.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Exactly!! Someone in here told me that Oden's rookie season has been as good as Dwight Howard's which is FUCKING ridiculous. Howard averaged a fucking double double! But this poster said that they had the same per36 stats, but I think that's bullshit. Oden had 10 & 5 in the first half last night but he did NOT finish with 20 & 10.
I'm so fucking glad to hear from someone that gets this!!!! The per48/per36 stuff is bullshit.

For fuck's sake, calm yourself.

It's not always a valid extrapolation but it depends on the player, the style of play and the role in which a player gets their stats. The reason Sergio's per 36 numbers might not be as extensible as Oden's is that playing point guard and running the offense takes a ton of energy, and in a 15 minute spark plug role that player doesn't have to conserve anything. In Greg's case, rebounding, dunking and clogging the paint isn't particularly strenuous (from a cardio perspective) and you can usually extrapolate those numbers a little more accurately.

Has he been as good as Dwight in his rookie season? No, because he clearly has struggled with fouls and staying on the court long enough to be a major difference maker, but when he has played 30+ minutes he's put up great numbers (in the handful of times it happened).

 

[alex42083]

I don't think anyone's ever questioned Sergio's ability to pass the ball and get teammates involved. It's his confidence level that sways throughout the season, his ability to knock down any jumper consistently and play defense. He's actually been playing good D lately, but that jumper is still ugly as hell.

 

[Minstrel]

Exactly!! Someone in here told me that Oden's rookie season has been as good as Dwight Howard's which is FUCKING ridiculous. Howard averaged a fucking double double! But this poster said that they had the same per36 stats, but I think that's bullshit.

If you're referring to me (and I can't tell, but I know you've fought with me in your insistence that Oden has been crap), I didn't use per-36 stats. I used PER, which has some of the same pitfalls of extrapolation but also has some important strengths over per-36. In any case, my point was never that Oden has had as good a rookie season as Howard. I said that when Oden was on the floor, he was as good as Howard was in Howard's rookie season. Due to foul trouble, Oden can't be on the floor as much as Howard was, so Oden's rookie season is certainly lesser. But his level of play when on the court has been very similar, despite recovering from surgery, and that's a very good sign.

 

[Sinobas]

Exactly!! Someone in here told me that Oden's rookie season has been as good as Dwight Howard's which is FUCKING ridiculous. Howard averaged a fucking double double! But this poster said that they had the same per36 stats, but I think that's bullshit. Oden had 10 & 5 in the first half last night but he did NOT finish with 20 & 10.
I'm so fucking glad to hear from someone that gets this!!!! The per48/per36 stuff is bullshit.

It's not always an invalid comparison, and it's certainly not "fucking FUCKING ridiculous". It's math. Ironic that you think it's illogical yet, you think it is logical to try and prove your point based on an isolated incident.

You can get results which probably wouldn't match the real world when you do it for people that have only played a few minutes, but Greg has played enough that it's a valid extrapolation.

Also, look at his stats when he does NOT get into foul trouble, you might be surprised.

 

[KingSpeed]

It wasn't you Minstrel. And Oden hasn't been similar to Howard at all.

 

[KingSpeed]

It's not always an invalid comparison, and it's certainly not "fucking FUCKING ridiculous". It's math. Ironic that you think it's illogical yet, you think it is logical to try and prove your point based on an isolated incident.

You can get results which probably wouldn't match the real world when you do it for people that have only played a few minutes, but Greg has played enough that it's a valid extrapolation.

Also, look at his stats when he does NOT get into foul trouble, you might be surprised.

He wasn't in foul trouble at all in LA against the Clippers last week but he played terribly. 4 pts & 6 rebs, but he was worse than his stats. Look, I love the Blazers and love Oden and want him to do well, but let's please keep it real. Very often, the guy plays terribly. In foul trouble or not.

 

[Shooter]

Very often, the guy plays terribly. In foul trouble or not.

Sadly, this is true. I'm also a huge Oden supporter, but he still looks lost most of the time. In last night's game he threw up an airball on a hook shot, got the ball knocked out of his hands two or three times, and looked generally inept on offense, unless he was right under the basket.

I'm hoping he turns it up a notch in the playoffs.

 

[Minstrel]

And Oden hasn't been similar to Howard at all.

Sure he has. When he's been on the court, he's been similarly productive. And, actually, probably a superior defender.

 

[Nikolokolus]

He wasn't in foul trouble at all in LA against the Clippers last week but he played terribly. 4 pts & 6 rebs, but he was worse than his stats. Look, I love the Blazers and love Oden and want him to do well, but let's please keep it real. Very often, the guy plays terribly. In foul trouble or not.

And this is why I rarely take anything you say seriously; in your mind singular events are 'trends'.

Now tell me 'checkmate' or 'learn the game, then post' that would certainly put me in my place.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Sadly, this is true. I'm also a huge Oden supporter, but he still looks lost most of the time. In last night's game he threw up an airball on a hook shot, got the ball knocked out of his hands two or three times, and looked generally inept on offense, unless he was right under the basket.

I'm hoping he turns it up a notch in the playoffs.

You just described Dwight in his rookie season (minus getting the ball knocked out of his hands).

 

[KingSpeed]

Sadly, this is true. I'm also a huge Oden supporter, but he still looks lost most of the time. In last night's game he threw up an airball on a hook shot, got the ball knocked out of his hands two or three times, and looked generally inept on offense, unless he was right under the basket.

I'm hoping he turns it up a notch in the playoffs.

Thank you!!! I'm glad to hear someone keep it real. Phew. It's so weird when people act like he's playing great for us when he's not. He has flashes, yes, but he has games that make him look very bad. I say "he's a serious project" because he looks like a player who has a LOT to learn. But then he throws down a couple dunks and everyone says I'm wrong.

Look, I WANT Oden to play well. That is why I'm very disappointed when he does not.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Thank you!!! I'm glad to hear someone keep it real. Phew. It's so weird when people act like he's playing great for us when he's not. He has flashes, yes, but he has games that make him look very bad. I say "he's a serious project" because he looks like a player who has a LOT to learn. But then he throws down a couple dunks and everyone says I'm wrong.

Look, I WANT Oden to play well. That is why I'm very disappointed when he does not.

Who said he's playing great?

 

[KingSpeed]

You just described Dwight in his rookie season.

You've gotta be kidding me. I saw Howard play and he was NOTHING like that. Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia to remind you:

He finished his rookie season with an average of 12.0 ppg and 10.0 rpg,[5] setting several NBA records in the process. He became the youngest player in NBA history to average a double double in the regular season.[4] He also became the youngest player in NBA history to average at least 10.0 rebounds in a season and youngest NBA player ever to record at least 20 rebounds in a game.[4] Howard's importance to the Magic was highlighted when he became the first player in NBA history directly out of high school to start all 82 games during his rookie season.

Doesn't sound like Greg Oden at all. You can make excuses for Greg if you want. Surgery, year off, fouls(but how come Howard didn't have as much foul trouble as Greg?), etc, but it still doesn't change the fact that Greg has not played as well as Howard. Not close.

 

[KingSpeed]

You just described Dwight in his rookie season (minus getting the ball knocked out of his hands).

Thanks for the added parentheses

 

[KingSpeed]

Don't you WISH Oden was having the rookie season Howard did? How fucking amazing would we be right now if he had? 60 wins easily.

 

[Nikolokolus]

You've gotta be kidding me. I saw Howard play and he was NOTHING like that. Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia to remind you:

He finished his rookie season with an average of 12.0 ppg and 10.0 rpg,[5] setting several NBA records in the process. He became the youngest player in NBA history to average a double double in the regular season.[4] He also became the youngest player in NBA history to average at least 10.0 rebounds in a season and youngest NBA player ever to record at least 20 rebounds in a game.[4] Howard's importance to the Magic was highlighted when he became the first player in NBA history directly out of high school to start all 82 games during his rookie season.

Doesn't sound like Greg Oden at all. You can make excuses for Greg if you want. Surgery, year off, fouls(but how come Howard didn't have as much foul trouble as Greg?), etc, but it still doesn't change the fact that Greg has not played as well as Howard. Not close.

I watched Dwight play. He was certainly way more explosive then Greg (to be expected), but his skill in the post was (and still largely is) limited to dunks and putbacks. The biggest thing Dwight did to separate himself from Oden was avoiding foul trouble, a skill Greg has not mastered.

 

[KingSpeed]

I watched Dwight play. He was certainly way more explosive then Greg (to be expected), but his skill in the post was (and still largely is) limited to dunks and putbacks. The biggest thing Dwight did to separate himself from Oden was avoiding foul trouble, a skill Greg has not mastered.

I hear ya. I don't need Greg to be dropping hook shots regularly to make me happy. I just want him to rebound, not get pushed around, intimidate, and hold onto the fucking ball. And not commit stupid fouls. I mean, it's not all about stats either. Batum's stats aren't impressive at all, but I'm wayyyy happier with how Batum played this season than how Greg played.

 

[LameR]

This thread is funny to me, because of how kingspeed has felt about Outlaw during/after horrible games and mistakes. It's like you could replace "Oden" with "Outlaw" prior to the all-star break, and all of the criticisms would make sense. Irrationality is fun.

 

[Shooter]

You just described Dwight in his rookie season (minus getting the ball knocked out of his hands).

Hey, I hope you're right. I would LOVE it if Oden turned into another Dwight Howard.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Hey, I hope you're right. I would LOVE it if Oden turned into another Dwight Howard.

I really don't know. But I'm anxious to see what Greg looks like after having a normal off-season (where you work on technique and not your knee) and being two years removed from microfracture which is largely seen as the normal timeline for full recovery.

He may never be quite up to Dwight's level, but I can easily see him being a 15/13/2.5 guy in a couple of years if he can stay healthy.

 

[Iwatas]

I personally consider that statistic pretty meaningless. If Sergio had actually played more than 15 minutes a game, he probably would have had a ton of turnovers to go with his assists. And who knows if he'd still be productive in assists if he played the minutes of a starter? Some guys give you less and less production the longer they stay in a game, due to fatigue, lack of concentration, and the defense adjusting to them.

The argument might have teeth if there were lots of PGs who, in limited minutes, racked up similar or better numbers. But Sergio is all alone up there; you have to go all the way down to Brevin Knight to find a PG who plays so few minutes.

Of the top 50 assists/48 players, only *5* of them played 20 minutes or less per game.

So the evidence suggests the *opposite* from your argument -- that in fact, across the NBA, assists/48 go UP with more minutes, not the other way around.

iWatas

 

[Deebag]

It's no secret that Sergio can pass. It's just that his scoring and defense have been pretty lackluster (except recently). Once he can consistently hit a jumpshot and be a threat to drive to the rim like he has lately, he'll be a really good point guard IMO. Question is, can he keep it up?

 

[KingSpeed]

This thread is funny to me, because of how kingspeed has felt about Outlaw during/after horrible games and mistakes. It's like you could replace "Oden" with "Outlaw" prior to the all-star break, and all of the criticisms would make sense. Irrationality is fun.

Outlaw has had an entire better season than Oden has and it's not even close. Please.

 

[KingSpeed]

I really don't know. But I'm anxious to see what Greg looks like after having a normal off-season (where you work on technique and not your knee) and being two years removed from microfracture which is largely seen as the normal timeline for full recovery.

He may never be quite up to Dwight's level, but I can easily see him being a 15/13/2.5 guy in a couple of years if he can stay healthy.

That would be amazing. It is all we ask and it would fit in within the framework of the entire team.

 

[Miksaid]

He wasn't in foul trouble at all in LA against the Clippers last week but he played terribly. 4 pts & 6 rebs, but he was worse than his stats. Look, I love the Blazers and love Oden and want him to do well, but let's please keep it real. Very often, the guy plays terribly. In foul trouble or not.

Were you the same guy who said Jarrett Jack > Devin Harris? I find it uncharacteristic that the biggest Blazer homer on this board, bordering on lunacy, is so quick to dismiss a legitimate Oden excuse (rookie, injury, foul trouble). Travis Outlaw, your prized godsend is showing promise only now, in his 5th year in the league. If I recall correctly, you called Oden a "serious project"-- so why is it that you, the ultimate Blazer optimist who believes Oden a project, are less able to see the the positives that Oden brings to the table than the rest of us?