Shocking new video shows unarmed Utah man was listening to headphones when killed by police

[Sinobas]

We're not talking about me, or about a person who had a fake gun. We're talking about a person who was adjusting his pants, and about a cop who, in your words, was so spooked that he thought it appropriate to use deadly force in a situation where there was no imminent threat, and no weapon was present. There is nothing in that video indicating any need for deadly force, and no justification for it.

Implicit with the authority to use deadly force when necessary is the restriction to use it ONLY when absolutely necessary. Violation of that implicit understanding should be considered criminal.

But you admit that it doesn't matter if the gun is fake, it's about what the police officer can reasonably believe in the situation. Officers are not omnicient and they have to make split second decisions. If the dude reached into his back pocket to pull out a comb to come his hair, you can't blame the cop for that horrendous stupidity.

In this particular situation, his actions were very much like pulling a fake gun. He stuck his hands into front of his baggy waiste band, and menancingly refused to take them out, telling the officer "no, fool". He wasn't fixing his pants.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

But you admit that it doesn't matter if the gun is fake, it's about what the police officer can reasonably believe in the situation. Officers are not omnicient and they have to make split second decisions. If the dude reached into his back pocket to pull out a comb to come his hair, you can't blame the cop for that horrendous stupidity.

In this particular situation, his actions were very much like pulling a fake gun. He stuck his hands into front of his baggy waiste band, and menancingly refused to take them out, telling the officer "no, fool". He wasn't fixing his pants.

Yes, I absolutely can blame the cop for assuming a weapon is there when he doesn't see anything of the sort. This, it appears, is where you and I disagree. In my opinion, the should be absolutely no ambiguity of the situation in order to justify deadly force. You apparently seem to believe cops should have the right to shoot people if they have the slightest inkling that things might be turning violent. I believe a higher standard should be required.

 

[Sinobas]

Yes, I absolutely can blame the cop for assuming a weapon is there when he doesn't see anything of the sort. This, it appears, is where you and I disagree. In my opinion, the should be absolutely no ambiguity of the situation in order to justify deadly force. You apparently seem to believe cops should have the right to shoot people if they have the slightest inkling that things might be turning violent. I believe a higher standard should be required.

But too often, being absolutely sure is too late. It's not a realistic expectation. If you just take the fake gun for example, what would it realistically take for a cop to stop and verify that every gun that was pulled on them was real and loaded? "Oh, excuse me sir, before we start this gunfight, may I please examine your weapon?"

 

[PtldPlatypus]

But too often, being absolutely sure is too late. It's not a realistic expectation. If you just take the fake gun for example, what would it realistically take for a cop to stop and verify that every gun that was pulled on them was real and loaded? "Oh, excuse me sir, before we start this gunfight, may I please examine your weapon?"

I've been ignoring your fake gun strawman because it's a false equivalency. In that situation, the person wants the cop to believe that he has a deadly weapon, that someone's life is in danger. This isn't that.

A more apropo comparison might be civilian home defense. Homeowners have the legal right to use deadly force to defend their home, but they do not have the right to shoot at any person who enters their home uninvited. A clear and present danger must exist to justify use of deadly force. Police should be subject to at least the same standard, if not one that is more stringent.

 

[Sinobas]

I've been ignoring your fake gun strawman because it's a false equivalency. In that situation, the person wants the cop to believe that he has a deadly weapon, that someone's life is in danger. This isn't that.

A more apropo comparison might be civilian home defense. Homeowners have the legal right to use deadly force to defend their home, but they do not have the right to shoot at any person who enters their home uninvited. A clear and present danger must exist to justify use of deadly force. Police should be subject to at least the same standard, if not one that is more stringent.

It's not a false equivalency, because you can lead an officer to believe you are pulling a gun on them even without having a fake gun. It undermines your argument that a shooting is only justified if the person really had a gun.

And remember, he didn't just randomly drive up to someone and decide to pull his gun out, he was responding to a report of someone brandishing a gun.

Police are subject to those laws, they can't go around and randomly kill people.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

And an unarmed white person is shot and no one in SLC riots or protests? White people are lame.

 

[dviss1]

I disagree. His boss should for training police this is proper procedure. I don't think we should blame police for following procedure, but we do need to demand procedures be changed to be acceptable to the public. Then when an incident like this occurs, either the cop is wrong or the Chief is wrong.

I don't think it matters why the fellow did not put up his hands, one cop should not have the discretion to shooting his ass and have it be considered due process.

Did you watch the video?

 

[Further]

It's a tough situation. The cop was wrong, poorly trained and far too scared to make rational decisions in times of stress. But sending him to Jail also doesn't solve the problem, it just compounds the situation. Just as I'm not for stuffing our jails with nonviolent drug offenders because all it does is ruin lives and cost money, I'm also not interested in filling the cells with clean cops who make bad stress related decisions. This cop should never have been given a badge and should certainly be fired and banned from future police jobs. But jail isn't the answer.

But the training, monitoring and equipment of this cop needs to be torn down and revamped for future officers. No cop should be allowed to hit the streets with a gun if she/he can't remain calm under pressure. No cop should be on patrol without a less lethal option like s tazor,

This whole situation, and the rash of similar ones needs to be addressed in every police academy and police station throughout our lands. Policy must be more strict and training more thorough. We can find the extra money by cutting down on sending nonviolent lawbreakers to jail.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Owner of house blown apart by SWAT says: 'This is an abomination. This is an atrocity'

SWAT was trying to flush out shoplifting suspect

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/new...ys-this-is-an-abomination-this-is-an-atrocity

 

[oldmangrouch]

What were they using on that house? I find it real hard to believe that damage was inflicted by flash-bangs.

BTW, you will note that the innocent homeowner's insurance company is on the hook for the damages.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

What were they using on that house? I find it real hard to believe that damage was inflicted by flash-bangs.

BTW, you will note that the innocent homeowner's insurance company is on the hook for the damages.

Fucked move by the shoplifter, turned a weekend in jail into a 20 year prison sentence.

 

[barfo]

Might have been a smarter move to just let the shoplifter get away once he'd left the scene. Forget about the SWAT team and the standoff - just having a single cop chase the suspect surely cost far more than the shoplifting.

barfo

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[jlprk]

http://rt.com/usa/265402-nycha-workers-safety-vests/

 

[riverman]

http://rt.com/usa/265402-nycha-workers-safety-vests/

So I'm guessing now every criminal in NY will go out and buy an orange vest

 

[riverman]

This guy's got nothing on Raymond Felton

 

[jlprk]

You and I are not permitted the excuses for murder that succeed for police. I propose a Constitutional amendment:

Within the United States, every agent of every government level will be held to the same legal behavior as every other individual is. There will be no separate behavior standards for people working on behalf of the government.

The above should be made viral in millions of e-mails.

 

[magnifier661]

But you admit that it doesn't matter if the gun is fake, it's about what the police officer can reasonably believe in the situation. Officers are not omnicient and they have to make split second decisions. If the dude reached into his back pocket to pull out a comb to come his hair, you can't blame the cop for that horrendous stupidity.

In this particular situation, his actions were very much like pulling a fake gun. He stuck his hands into front of his baggy waiste band, and menancingly refused to take them out, telling the officer "no, fool". He wasn't fixing his pants.

Pulling out a fake gun is much different than adjusting pants bro. With a fake gun, there is absolutely a "reasonable doubt" situation where you are justified firing at the suspect. There was nothing of the sort in this situation.

 

[jlprk]

Pulling out a fake gun is much different than adjusting pants bro. With a fake gun, there is absolutely a "reasonable doubt" situation where you are justified firing at the suspect. There was nothing of the sort in this situation.

So if I kill someone for pulling out a toy gun, the court will absolve me? After all, I feared for my life.

You see, I was chickenshit to back up, like everyone else there did, because I have to always look tough. The court will surely let me, not a policeman, off.

 

[magnifier661]

So if I kill someone for pulling out a toy gun, the court will absolve me? After all, I feared for my life.

You see, I was chickenshit to back up, like everyone else there did, because I have to always look tough. The court will surely let me, not a policeman, off.

We are talking about "Airsoft guns" then absolutely yes. They are exact replicas of the real thing. If the tip doesn't have the orange painted, then it will look very real.

 

[Sinobas]

Pulling out a fake gun is much different than adjusting pants bro. With a fake gun, there is absolutely a "reasonable doubt" situation where you are justified firing at the suspect. There was nothing of the sort in this situation.

He wasn't adjusting his pants, he stuck his pants down the front of his very baggy pants (which are often used to conceal weapons), and was moving them around in a menacing way. Total wrong thing to do in that situation. Remember the call was about a someone with a gun, so the frame is already set. His friends put their hands up, he walked away, and made moves like he was drawing a gun.

 

[Sinobas]

So if I kill someone for pulling out a toy gun, the court will absolve me? After all, I feared for my life.

You see, I was chickenshit to back up, like everyone else there did, because I have to always look tough. The court will surely let me, not a policeman, off.

You think backing up will stop a bullet? You obviously have no clue what it would take to do police work and put your life on the line if you think they're going to try to figure out if the gun is real first. Those self defense laws do apply to everyone.

 

[magnifier661]

He wasn't adjusting his pants, he stuck his pants down the front of his very baggy pants (which are often used to conceal weapons), and was moving them around in a menacing way. Total wrong thing to do in that situation. Remember the call was about a someone with a gun, so the frame is already set. His friends put their hands up, he walked away, and made moves like he was drawing a gun.

I will admit that his actions definitely created large suspicion, but cops should have a little more reserve. The cop already knew he had the jump. If a gun was pulled, the cop could easily take him down. The assumption warrants the gun draw, but definitely doesn't warrant being shot.

With an Airsoft gun description you used earlier, the threat is seen and different action is warranted. Especially if that weapon looks like an assault rifle. And remember you used "waving a toy gun at the cops". The situation is absolutely different.

 

[Bob Dobalina]

If a gun was pulled, the cop could easily take him down. The assumption warrants the gun draw, but definitely doesn't warrant being shot.

This is where I think most of us tend to assume incorrectly. Test have shown that the reaction time does not allow a cop to see, identify and decide there's a gun in the hand before it's too late. As someone who's been shot, I can tell you, it's way quicker than you can imagine.

“The process of perceiving the suspect’s movement, interpreting the action, deciding on a response, and executing the response for the officer generally took longer than it took the suspect to execute the action of shooting, even though the officer already had his gun aimed at the suspect.”

 

[oldmangrouch]

This is where I think most of us tend to assume incorrectly. Test have shown that the reaction time does not allow a cop to see, identify and decide there's a gun in the hand before it's too late. As someone who's been shot, I can tell you, it's way quicker than you can imagine.

Then why do the cops draw first? If that study is taken at face value, there is no reason to draw the weapon until you have already decided to fire it.

Or maybe that is the dirty little secret - once the cop's gun was drawn the civilian was dead no matter what he did.

 

[Sinobas]

I will admit that his actions definitely created large suspicion, but cops should have a little more reserve. The cop already knew he had the jump. If a gun was pulled, the cop could easily take him down. The assumption warrants the gun draw, but definitely doesn't warrant being shot.

With an Airsoft gun description you used earlier, the threat is seen and different action is warranted. Especially if that weapon looks like an assault rifle. And remember you used "waving a toy gun at the cops". The situation is absolutely different.

But you can shoot a gun through your coat (or pants in this case).

 

[Sinobas]

Then why do the cops draw first? If that study is taken at face value, there is no reason to draw the weapon until you have already decided to fire it.

Or maybe that is the dirty little secret - once the cop's gun was drawn the civilian was dead no matter what he did.

I'm sure the ratio of drawing weapon to actually firing is very high, because most of the time a person will comply with the officer's orders. Also, they want to draw first to make sure they can fire before the other person has time to fire on them.

Cops over-step sometimes. But it seems there's some irrational cop hate. Like anytime they use lethal force it's bad.

In this case, I think the video actually supports the cop.