Shorten the Rotation

[UKRAINEFAN]

I am advocating that Webster be dropped out of the rotation completely. The kid is too psychologically fragile (leading to inconsistency, leading to fear of taking a shot), and having a psychologist on staff doesn't seem to help. This is a problem with drafting a high school kid who really hasn't dealt with the pressure of bigtime college basketball (unless you have the kind of personality of a LeBron or Kobe).

Sitting Martell should open up more time for Bayless, Rudy and Batum and all three need time to either develop their skills or show they don't deserve more time. This will certainly help the team long term, and I think will probably help shortterm also.

 

[The Other Guys]

When we made that Camby deal I wish somehow we dealt him instead of Outlaw. Webster can be so hot sometimes but it's hard to watch him when he struggles so badly. It was great watching him be that energy player that was all over the place on defense and hitting every 3 in January, but it just washes away somehow. I dunno?

 

[Chuck Taylor]

On the same topic, why did Cunningham play more than Batum tonight? I like the kid, but he's not as good as Batum!

 

[The Other Guys]

On the same topic, why did Cunningham play more than Batum tonight? I like the kid, but he's not as good as Batum!

Because of this guy......

 

[Nate Dogg]

On the same topic, why did Cunningham play more than Batum tonight? I like the kid, but he's not as good as Batum!

Only 3 min more. Whats wrong giving him experience for a rookie?

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

This psychological stuff is pretty bullshit IMO.

He isn't earning the minutes so he's not getting the calls right now...big deal. You just don't write guys "out of the rotation". Like 0 minutes per game for the rest of the year? What fucked up universe do you live on where this kind of thing happens? Its just weird, fucked up shit.

He's a streaky shooter, has done well, has not....up and down. Right now he's Batum's backup, don't know how cutting him out of the rotation opens up more minutes for Bayless, our backup PG or Rudy, our backup SG.

He's scored in double figures 17 out of the last 25 games for christ's sake. You don't just randomly drop guys "out of the rotation" to open up playing time for guys that don't play his position

He's shooting 40% from 3 point land for this month. 39% last month.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

The last 4 games, he really hasn't played HORRIBLE, just kind of non-involved in the game...he doesn't screw up and the major runs happened when he was out of the game anyways.

 

[Minstrel]

This psychological stuff is pretty bullshit IMO.

He isn't earning the minutes so he's not getting the calls right now...big deal. You just don't write guys "out of the rotation". Like 0 minutes per game for the rest of the year? What fucked up universe do you live on where this kind of thing happens? Its just weird, fucked up shit.

He's a streaky shooter, has done well, has not....up and down. Right now he's Batum's backup, don't know how cutting him out of the rotation opens up more minutes for Bayless, our backup PG or Rudy, our backup SG.

He's scored in double figures 17 out of the last 25 games for christ's sake. You don't just randomly drop guys "out of the rotation" to open up playing time for guys that don't play his position

He's shooting 40% from 3 point land for this month. 39% last month.

So are you for it or against it?

I agree with you, though. I'm not the biggest Webster fan, but he's certainly not been the sort of trainwreck that deserves being shelved entirely. He's likely never going to be the impact player a lot of Blazers fans envisioned, but he is a legitimate NBA reserve.

Give Batum starter minutes, which he deserves, give Webster the 10-13 MPG that an unexceptional reserve should get and everything's in its right place.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Let's compare February's for a surging batum and a slumping Webster:

Webster
24.1 mpg
9.6ppg
1.3 apg
2.3 rpg
0.3 blk
0.5 stl
40.8% FG
40% 3PT

Batum
22.1 mpg
7.8ppg
0.5 apg
3.5 rbg
0.7 blk
0.4 stl

51.6% FG
37.9% 3PT


Its not THAT big of a difference. And the +/- doesn't seem to be THAT huge when either of them are in/out.

Its just that people seem to like Batum more so they assume he's doing WORLD's better..but the problem really isn't there at the SF position.

 

[Minstrel]

Let's compare February's for a surging batum and a slumping Webster:

Webster
24.1 mpg
9.6ppg
1.3 apg
2.3 rpg
0.3 blk
0.5 stl
40.8% FG


Batum
22.1 mpg
7.8ppg
0.5 apg
3.5 rbg
0.7 blk
0.4 stl

51.6% FG
37.9% 3PT


Its not THAT big of a difference. And the +/- doesn't seem to be THAT huge when either of them are in/out.

Its just that people seem to like Batum more.

The shooting percentage difference is actually pretty enormous. And Batum is a tremendous defender while Webster is merely passable.

I think Batum is markedly better. That doesn't make Webster hot garbage though.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Webster is a fine backup. He's making "fine backup" money right now....sure, we'd love to have Chris Paul right now, but who cares, we have 'Tell on the team...the only major upgrade over him we could get would push Batum out of the starting lineup.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

I think the argument could be made that Webster is a swing player (sf/sg) and that him being on the bench could open up more time for another swing player (Rudy) and a guy many consider a Sg (Bayless).

For me, consistency is really important and Martell just has not developed that. Rudy also has not, but he's been on the big stage in Europe and I think with more playing time, he could attain consistency. Who knows? But I think the rotation is too long right now for players to develop skills and for the team to find cohesion.

I understand some people may be attached to Martell, he hasn't had the easiest road in life, but it might even be good for him to sit and decide for himself what he needs to do to have that consistent intensity and to develop confidence in himself that is separate from confidence of others in him.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Martell doesn't take ANY minutes from Bayless and Rudy. Maybe when Blake was here, but now he doesn't. He is a permanent fixture at the 3 and has been for as long as he's been here.

And I hope to pray he's not some emo that needs to find himself. He's in a slump, it happens to a lot of players...so his minutes are reduced. I don't see any need to change what's going on. Just have him earn his minutes, I could give a damn about his so-called mental problems. Its too touchy-feely-lame to me. This is a man's league, you play bad, you (usually) get your minutes chopped.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

I think I I have overstated my case, El Presidente; perhaps I should have just stuck to stating that Batum should be getting 40 minutes a night, and whenever there is thought of going to a smaller lineup, I would put Rudy in instead of Martell. At this point I am in favor of giving other guys as much of a chance to develop as possible, so I would favor limiting Martell's minutes. Tonight was OK for me, eight minutes, but I would really be surprised if he can learn how to be effective in eight minutes, but I hope for his sake he learns.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

By the way, I'm not trying to imply that Martell has psychological problems: I just think that to this point he has not developed the mental toughness that is required to be a consistent performer.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Well, Nicolas needs to get more consistent himself. He plays great in spurts too, but he's as inconsistent as Webster.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Rudy is inconsistent.

as is Bayless, who has had the "stresses of college hoops"

 

[Kaydow]

So are you for it or against it?

I agree with you, though. I'm not the biggest Webster fan, but he's certainly not been the sort of trainwreck that deserves being shelved entirely. He's likely never going to be the impact player a lot of Blazers fans envisioned, but he is a legitimate NBA reserve.

Give Batum starter minutes, which he deserves, give Webster the 10-13 MPG that an unexceptional reserve should get and everything's in its right place.

And the problem with this is that Martell plays TERRIBLE coming off the bench. I don't know if he loses his confidence, or what. It just hasn't been pretty - ever.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Well, Nicolas needs to get more consistent himself. He plays great in spurts too, but he's as inconsistent as Webster.

I don't think I could disagree more. That's not to say that I think Nic is purely consistent, but considering the work he puts in on defense even when he's not producing on offense I don't see this comparison.

Martell isn't terrible, and he probably is still worthy of rotation minutes, but his predicament is similar to a lot of guys on this team; he's a rhythm player who needs shots and touches to be most effective (Rudy and Bayless come to mind) and with the logjam of wings and guards on this team with the same general profile it's going to be tough moving forward to find him the time he needs to be effective.

I think it's no coincidence that Martell's most effective month of his career came when he logged 35 minutes a night and didn't have any competition at small forward, a quick scan of his game logs also shows that when he's taking a lot of shots his percentages go up, but when he's not he's posting some truly awful shooting numbers

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=2795

There's no good answer about what should be done with all of these tertiary players, anything Nate does is going to leave somebody out in the cold.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I think it's no coincidence that Martell's most effective month of his career came when he logged 35 minutes a night and didn't have any competition at small forward, a quick scan of his game logs also shows that when he's taking a lot of shots his percentages go up, but when he's not he's posting some truly awful shooting numbers

Not that I disagree with you here--I've made the same argument myself--but I've always been troubled trying to determine in these situations which is the chicken and which is the egg. Was he shooting better because he was getting more shots, or was he given more shots because he was shooting well? Did he play better because he got more minutes, or did his playing time increase because he was playing well?

Taking it further, isn't this the crux of the "player showcasing" argument? If a team has a player they want to deal, can they increase his value by increasing his minutes and role, thereby facilitating improved play? Making this Blazer-centric, if Rudy really does need to be traded, would this be our best tactic for him (and Webster?), making him more valuable to potential off-season suitors?

Somebody really needs to do a thesis on this issue. I'd read it.

 

[Kaydow]

Not that I disagree with you here--I've made the same argument myself--but I've always been troubled trying to determine in these situations which is the chicken and which is the egg. Was he shooting better because he was getting more shots, or was he given more shots because he was shooting well? Did he play better because he got more minutes, or did his playing time increase because he was playing well?

Taking it further, isn't this the crux of the "player showcasing" argument? If a team has a player they want to deal, can they increase his value by increasing his minutes and role, thereby facilitating improved play? Making this Blazer-centric, if Rudy really does need to be traded, would this be our best tactic for him (and Webster?), making him more valuable to potential off-season suitors?

Somebody really needs to do a thesis on this issue. I'd read it.

I was hoping for this when Martell was balling in January. I wonder if that had any impact on his trade value. We'll never know I guess. It could be that his contract makes him untradeable for now. $5 million/year was a good bargain two years ago, but with the new CBA looming . . . this could be what pretty good players make.

I don't know what you do with Martell. Clearly, he sucks coming off the bench and Nic is a better player. I'd love to see Martell come in with the 2nd unit and be an energy guy like Doug Christie who D's out of his arse and knocks down 3's. Martel has had his moments defensively (not just the Lakers/Kobe game) but doesn't bring the same effort every night. It's even worse when he's not starting. He could help himself immensely if he learned how to dribble. He is just plain awful when he puts the ball on the deck, which makes him one dimensional. And with his leaping ability, it doesn't have to be that way. You CAN make yourself a better ball handler. Instead of shooting 600 jumpers a day in the summer, shoot 300 and work on your handles a little bit. Not saying he could become Steve Nash, but just enough for him to drive to the basket without kicking it, getting stripped, or just fumbling it away . . . when he's not hitting 3's and playing with defensive energy, he's just worthless out there.

 

[mook]

I'm sitting here trying to think of one good reason Martel should play any minutes that Cunningham could, and I can't think of any. I suppose if you are down by 3 at the end of the game....but even there I almost trust Cunningham to make the smart play more than I do Webster making the three in a clutch situation.

Imagine we'd drafted Webster this year with the 33rd pick. Now imagine Dante had evolved to the player he is now after taking him with the 6th pick in 2005. Would there even be a debate about who should get minutes? Because in my mind Webster would be seeing fewer minutes than Pendergraph if it weren't for all the history.

I think at SF you give 28 mpg to Batum and 20 minutes to Cunningham, and garbage time to Webster. It'd suck for chemistry, I realize, so maybe it's not feasible. But if you just look at productivity, those are the two guys you want in there at SF instead of Webster.

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

Webster > Bayless

 

[STOMP]

Webster is a fine backup. He's making "fine backup" money right now....sure, we'd love to have Chris Paul right now, but who cares, we have 'Tell on the team...the only major upgrade over him we could get would push Batum out of the starting lineup.

There have been a lot of Martell critiques over the past couple years. Pretty much the only posters who bring up the Chris Paul draft gaff are the one's that are defending MW as if the other side of the argument is still so filled with bitterness over that missed opportunity that they can't rationally evaluate the situation today.

Martell has never played well off the bench so I don't know how one can claim he's a fine backup. More like he's an okay starter and a poor backup. This combined with Nic being clearly the superior player is why I was projecting Martell to work his way out of the rotation in the preseason. I'm much more comfortable with Rudy and Dante getting the backup wing run. Thats not to say I wouldn't be happy to see Martell step up his production off the bench and keep one of those two seated, but I'm just going off what I've observed time and again.

STOMP

 

[hasoos]

I agree. Martell is terrible, and exactly the opposite of the type of player you want on the floor. You want players who work like a machine, you know what your going to get every night. Martell is exactly the opposite.

The other young guys are inconsistent too. But they haven't had years in th league to develope like Martell has.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I don't think I could disagree more. That's not to say that I think Nic is purely consistent, but considering the work he puts in on defense even when he's not producing on offense I don't see this comparison.

Martell isn't terrible, and he probably is still worthy of rotation minutes, but his predicament is similar to a lot of guys on this team; he's a rhythm player who needs shots and touches to be most effective (Rudy and Bayless come to mind) and with the logjam of wings and guards on this team with the same general profile it's going to be tough moving forward to find him the time he needs to be effective.

I think it's no coincidence that Martell's most effective month of his career came when he logged 35 minutes a night and didn't have any competition at small forward, a quick scan of his game logs also shows that when he's taking a lot of shots his percentages go up, but when he's not he's posting some truly awful shooting numbers

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=2795

There's no good answer about what should be done with all of these tertiary players, anything Nate does is going to leave somebody out in the cold.

Batum is inconsistent, even when you take his defensive skills into play. He'll make some good plays and play great D...but he's still inconsistent.

And again, there is no rotation logjam. Moving Blake and Outlaw has ensured that.

As for his "truly awful shooting numbers"....he's shooting 47% in the month of February versus 43% last month where he shot more. He also is shooting better from behind the arc percentagewise than when he went on that tear in January.

(NOTE THE ERROR ABOVE I SAID HE WAS SHOOTING 40%, that was for the YEAR so he's shooting 47% versus 52% for Batum).


Again, its more fabricated pre-conceived notions based on nothing really.

 

[Chuck Taylor]

Only 3 min more. Whats wrong giving him experience for a rookie?

Should we start playing Patty Mills so we can give him experience for a rookie as well? Whats wrong with it is that we have a better chance of winning if Batum is on the court instead of Cunningham.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Cunningham, to me, is more of a PF than a SF "hustle player". He has that short jumper from about 12 feet and a few put-backs.

 

[Chuck Taylor]

Cunningham, to me, is more of a PF than a SF "hustle player". He has that short jumper from about 12 feet and a few put-backs.

I know he's bulkier than Batum, but they are the same height and Batum has a larger wingspan. I'd still take Batum as our PF over Dante, but Nate obviously disagrees.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I know he's bulkier than Batum, but they are the same height and Batum has a larger wingspan. I'd still take Batum as our PF over Dante, but Nate obviously disagrees.

I think Batum is fine playing all his minutes at the SF. I want to see more Pendergraph, but sometimes he's a little lower bball IQ than Cunningham...which is why Dante gets more burn.