should the blazers embrace full rebuild or rebuild through trades & free agency

[Mr. Robot]

personally, the only thing thats stoping me from wanting the full rebuild is dame lillard, as i would love to see him play his entire career with the blazers and its rare to see a star player do that, as they usually go elsewhere to win a ring or simply want to enjoy life in a great city... how great would it be for our franchise to have a star player that have played his entire career in rip city and that achievement would get him a statue outside of the rose garden for sure (he might get one if he leaves too, but still)

dallas mavs have dirk nowitzki, indiana pacers have reggie miller, utah jazz have john stockton, etc & id like to see us have dame lillard as our greatest blazer ever who played his entire career here

obviously, dame lillard is not a caliber of a player like lebron james or kevin durant, so his legacy wont be tarnished if he doesnt win a chip and loyalty to the blazers probably means more for his legacy than a chip elsewhere and i think dame believes that too and i think deep down he knows he wouldnt be a 1st option on some contending team (lets say phila)

for the blazers, speaking from a bball, not a business point, full rebuild most likely would be the best decision going foward, just go okc & houston route, cause blazers wont be a contender, with this team or with any trade/free agency moves, wed be a playoff team and we have been that for like a decade and weve got tired of it... or maybe weve got tired of the dame lillard-cj mccollum-nurk trio and we need new players, just something to get excited again

 

[Hoopguru]

Currently 12 of 30 teams are above 500. 16 of 30 500 and below. I would like to see what kind of trades can happen and wait till end of season to decide to blow it up or keep building around Dame.
We may have a new GM coming in so I would expect him to be involved with a different direction. We do have assets so lets see what Cronin can do, his job as IGM depends on it too.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Swing for the fences type of trade to help Lillard. Role players won't get done.

A full rebuild will be useless, tank and draft studs? Because young stars will see how badly the organization is at surrounding Lillard with top talent and will assume they will do that to them too. If the Blazers will fuck Lillard's time here more by not getting him the talent he needs around him, it doesn't bode well for future draft picks wanting to stay in Portland.

 

[HomerLovesKoolAid]

You guys are making way too much sense.
I'm going to some other thread where I can start a fight...

 

[KSF-ERIC]

personally, the only thing thats stoping me from wanting the full rebuild is dame lillard, as i would love to see him play his entire career with the blazers and its rare to see a star player do that, as they usually go elsewhere to win a ring or simply want to enjoy life in a great city... how great would it be for our franchise to have a star player that have played his entire career in rip city and that achievement would get him a statue outside of the rose garden for sure (he might get one if he leaves too, but still)

dallas mavs have dirk nowitzki, indiana pacers have reggie miller, utah jazz have john stockton, etc & id like to see as have dame lillard as our greatest blazer ever who played his entire career here

obviously, dame lillard is not a caliber of a player like lebron james or kevin durant, so his legacy wont be tarnished if he doesnt win a chip and loyalty to the blazers probably means more for his legacy than a chip elsewhere and i think dame believes that too and i think deep down he knows he wouldnt be a 1st option on some contending team (lets say phila)

for the blazers, speaking from a bball, not a business point, full rebuild most likely would be the best decision going foward, just go okc & houston route, cause blazers wont be a contender, with this team or with any trade/free agency moves, wed be a playoff team and we have been that for like a decade and weve got tired of it... or maybe weve got tired of the dame lillard-cj mccollum-nurk trio and we need new players, just something to get excited again

We already are like OKC. They’re just a half game below us.

 

[Strenuus]

We already are like OKC. They’re just a half game below us.

Lol well played.

 

[FlashWad]

Free Agency has never been successful in the entire history of the franchise other than a few players none would consider star caliber. Full rebuild and getting lucky in the draft is the only way for us to contend. all it took was a 15 pick for the bucks to go from a joke for years to having an mvp player, championship and be a contented for years. I know that its really lucky for them to get that but I would rather have that chance to get a player or players like that then be a treadmill team losing in the first round for eternity.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Swing for the fences and rest Lillard. Draft well.
Kill it next season.

*Trading Dame makes it tough for us to keep stars in the future. Do everything possible to get that man a title in Portland.

 

[BankTeller]

Free Agency has never been successful in the entire history of the franchise other than a few players none would consider star caliber. Full rebuild and getting lucky in the draft is the only way for us to contend. all it took was a 15 pick for the bucks to go from a joke for years to having an mvp player, championship and be a contented for years. I know that its really lucky for them to get that but I would rather have that chance to get a player or players like that then be a treadmill team losing in the first round for eternity.

I disagree, but only slightly. I agree there has to be a rebuild, but I think a full rebuild but still around Dame is possible. A bad year this year wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world. That would guarantee a lotto pick. Trading CJ + Covington could get you enough cracks at finding that star like Giannis in the next few years or you could them for a star. Nassir will continue to get better and is pretty much a guarantee to be our starting SF next year. Powell is still a good player on a very reasonable contract that can get us picks or a young guy back.

Still a lot of reasons to be optimistic with a Dame as our star to embrace a *full* rebuild in my opinion. Trading him only serves future stars a reminder that they should get out of Portland ASAP if they get drafted here.

 

[SlyPokerCat]

We already are like OKC. They’re just a half game below us.

And probably with a much brighter future as long as they use their picks wisely. SGA is the real deal too.

 

[DDolla]

When you say Free Agency are you talking about real players or just left over scrub players?

 

[e_blazer]

Free Agency has never been successful in the entire history of the franchise other than a few players none would consider star caliber. Full rebuild and getting lucky in the draft is the only way for us to contend. all it took was a 15 pick for the bucks to go from a joke for years to having an mvp player, championship and be a contented for years. I know that its really lucky for them to get that but I would rather have that chance to get a player or players like that then be a treadmill team losing in the first round for eternity.

Yeah, the Bucks got lucky on Giannis, but they also made smart trades (Middleton from Detroit and Holiday from the Pelicans) and FA signings (Lopez, Matthews, Connaughton, etc.)
Teams that “build through the draft” tend to stay in the draft lottery (Kings, Timberwolves).

 

[SlyPokerCat]

Yeah, the Bucks got lucky on Giannis, but they also made smart trades (Middleton from Detroit and Holiday from the Pelicans) and FA signings (Lopez, Matthews, Connaughton, etc.)
Teams that “build through the draft” tend to stay in the draft lottery (Kings, Timberwolves).

Warriors are a counterargument. They drafted their core.

The Spurs drafted winners.

For a small market team, the draft is a tool to acquire talent. You just have to hit multiple times and make good trades. We hit on the star in Lillard. We hit on a star in Aldridge. There is zero chance we would have ever gotten either of those players without getting a lotto pick.

 

[HomerLovesKoolAid]

Yeah, the Bucks got lucky on Giannis, but they also made smart trades (Middleton from Detroit and Holiday from the Pelicans) and FA signings (Lopez, Matthews, Connaughton, etc.)
Teams that “build through the draft” tend to stay in the draft lottery (Kings, Timberwolves).

Yep. We have to face the fact that we need an actual basketball guy as a GM. Someone with a vision for players that jive and Neil wasn't it. He was more of a bullshit artist than basketball guy.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

Not as long as Dame is here.

He’s Batman and Sleepy Joe Cronin has the task of finding his Robin.

 

[e_blazer]

Warriors are a counterargument. They drafted their core.

The Spurs drafted winners.

For a small market team, the draft is a tool to acquire talent. You just have to hit multiple times and make good trades. We hit on the star in Lillard. We hit on a star in Aldridge. There is zero chance we would have ever gotten either of those players without getting a lotto pick.

Both the Spurs and Warriors were stupendously fortunate to get core players like Ginobili and Green in the second round of the draft. The Robinson injury that netted Duncan was something you can’t plan. You need luck in great quantities plus smart trades and FA signings to build a contender.

 

[SlyPokerCat]

Both the Spurs and Warriors were stupendously fortunate to get core players like Ginobili and Green in the second round of the draft. The Robinson injury that netted Duncan was something you can’t plan. You need luck in great quantities plus smart trades and FA signings to build a contender.

Absolutely, but the Warriors whiffed on a lot of picks before hitting home runs with Klay and Curry. They couldn't have done that without having high draft picks.

Same with the Spurs. If they didn't suck, they never would have gotten Duncan. Duncan is a top 15 player of all time. Better than anyone we have ever had.

I have minimal faith we will ever sign an impact free agent. We overpay for role players.

So, the only way we can get stars is through the draft and trades. The draft is the easier place to do so since teams generally aren't going to want to let stars go, and stars aren't going to force their way to Portland.

 

[blazerkor]

I don't know if the word bleak got lost in translation and in no way am I saying that to be snarky but if we're thinking that it means the same thing then the poll question is shitty. There are so many ways that Dame stays with the team throughout his entire career and the team gets a lot better than we currently are and even gets better than the best we've been since Dame has been here. So I won't answer the poll question because I want big moves made around Dame that make us more competitive immediately and going forward over the next five or so years at least.

 

[riverman]

Absolutely, but the Warriors whiffed on a lot of picks before hitting home runs with Klay and Curry. They couldn't have done that without having high draft picks.

Same with the Spurs. If they didn't suck, they never would have gotten Duncan. Duncan is a top 15 player of all time. Better than anyone we have ever had.

I have minimal faith we will ever sign an impact free agent. We overpay for role players.

So, the only way we can get stars is through the draft and trades. The draft is the easier place to do so since teams generally aren't going to want to let stars go, and stars aren't going to force their way to Portland.

To me the way we get stars is to make them when they get here before anyone else knows they are....like a Nas....that's what the Blazers fishing pond is....trades and drafts...when they are constantly a top 4 team in the league they'll get some older stars who will play to win but until then, our talent will probably come from home cookin' and great scouting

 

[calvin natt]

There are so many ways that Dame stays with the team throughout his entire career and the team gets a lot better than we currently are and even gets better than the best we've been since Dame has been here.

Huh?

 

[TBpup]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mo...old-on/ar-AASdrUJ?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnbfcL

Interesting analogy.

 

[KSF-ERIC]

Free Agency has never been successful in the entire history of the franchise other than a few players none would consider star caliber. Full rebuild and getting lucky in the draft is the only way for us to contend. all it took was a 15 pick for the bucks to go from a joke for years to having an mvp player, championship and be a contented for years. I know that its really lucky for them to get that but I would rather have that chance to get a player or players like that then be a treadmill team losing in the first round for eternity.

15 pick isn’t a lottery pick. Also- Bucks weren’t much of a joke. They were in ECF in 2001 and then had solid Bogut years.

 

[blazerkor]

Huh?

There are trades to be made and any of them could pan out to be much better than any of us can foresee at the moment. Then there are free agents that can sign here, obviously it's unlikely to be an established star but it might be a player like Wes once was that is a difference maker that we get from out of nowhere. We will also draft players between now and the time Dame is no longer relevant, we could hit big on one of those picks. Nas also has a lot of potential, I don't think he's going to be an all star but I can't rule that out.

Let's see what happens between now and February 10th. That will be the first thing to look at for signs of life. Like I've said a lot lately if Cronin wants this job and the guy obviously does, he has to knock it out of the park between now and the deadline. If he doesn't do something that significantly upgrades this roster, he will not have the interim removed and will have to move on to another team or back to being an assistant GM for this one. That makes me think he will take a big shot and that big shot might make a huge difference in our team's ability to compete.

So to answer your "Huh?" There are an innumerable amount of ways that this roster with Dame on it can get better than we were when we got swept out of the Western Conference Finals. I realize that putting odds on what this team might be and might not be at any one point in the next five or so seasons if Dame stays is nearly impossible but if you lack the imagination to understand that there are just as many things that can go incredibly right, as there are that can go incredibly wrong or that can be incredibly blah, then I don't know what to tell you. Possibilities.

 

[Predator]

Warriors are a counterargument. They drafted their core.

The Spurs drafted winners.

For a small market team, the draft is a tool to acquire talent. You just have to hit multiple times and make good trades. We hit on the star in Lillard. We hit on a star in Aldridge. There is zero chance we would have ever gotten either of those players without getting a lotto pick.

Except what is being suggested would be the equivalent of the Warriors trading Steph to draft Klay.

or trading Aldridge to draft Lillard.

I would like to see an example of a team selling the farm & it working out for them.

 

[SlyPokerCat]

Except what is being suggested would be the equivalent of the Warriors trading Steph to draft Klay.

or trading Aldridge to draft Lillard.

I would like to see an example of a team selling the farm & it working out for them.

No.

We would be bad for multiple years to draft multiple star players. Or, we would have enough assets to make moves to try to get multiple star players through the draft.

A lotto pick this year and trading Dame for a lotto pick and other assets could achieve that, if we drafted the right way.

Since it is the rookies first year we probably would be picking top 10 next year too.

 

[wizenheimer]

Blazers currently at a 37.2% shot at a top 4 pick

 

[SlyPokerCat]

View attachment 43425

Blazers currently at a 37.2% shot at a top 4 pick

There is zero point to try to claw our way to a 1st round exit.

At least a lotto pick gives us some hope moving forward.

I don't get fans in love with the treadmill aspect.

 

[wizenheimer]

Yeah, the Bucks got lucky on Giannis, but they also made smart trades (Middleton from Detroit and Holiday from the Pelicans) and FA signings (Lopez, Matthews, Connaughton, etc.)
Teams that “build through the draft” tend to stay in the draft lottery (Kings, Timberwolves).

the Bucks actually traded for the right to draft Middleton. So, their two best players came from the draft. And yeah, I consider draft day trades and trading for draft rights as building thru the draft

I disagree, to a degree, on the notion that teams in the lottery stay in the lottery. Certainly some of them do but that's simply bad management. The Kings and Wolves being classic examples of that

But a lot of contenders, maybe even a big majority over the years, built their core thru the draft and supplement with a key trade or two.

* The Lakers and Celtics in the 80's did that. Magic, Worthy, Michael Cooper - Bird, McHale, Maxwell

* The Bulls won 6 championships after 'drafting' Jordan, Pippen, Horace Grant, and BJ Armstrong

* The Pistons won 2 after drafting Isiah Thomas, Dumars, Rodman, and John Salley

* The Spurs and Warriors have combined for 8 championships with their cores almost exclusively coming from the draft...and that includes this season's version of the Warriors

* the current Suns team added Booker, Bridges, Ayton, and Johnson thru the draft

not only that, Portland built their only championship team when they added Walton, Gross, Hollins, Steele, & Davis thru the regular draft and Lucas & Twardzick thru the dispersal draft. A decade later they built another contender by drafting Drexler, Porter, Kersey, and Robinson; then trading a former #2 pick for Buck Williams

sure, it requires some luck. But you have to be in a position to get lucky in the first place. Portland had a chance at that position in 2016. After the Aldridge team broke up, the Blazers could have doubled down on a bad roster by trading CJ while leveraging cap-space for 'bad' contracts and picks. But they went the other direction. Blazers could have a great team right now, maybe a strong contender, if Olshey hadn't been such a fucking idiot in the 2017 draft

They are currently in 6th place in the lottery with a 37% chance at a top-4 pick. That's an asset right now...one of the best they have frankly. Will they maximize it by clever management or dilute it for no good reason?

it would have required some incredible luck, but Portland could have come out of the 2013 draft with Dame, Giannis, and Gobert all Blazers. A generational opportunity although I'd imagine Giannis and Gobert would have spent a lot of time stepping on each other's toes. But Giannis + Dame? my oh my

I do not agree with those advocating trading Dame right now. I think the Blazers owe it to Dame, and the fans, one honest shot at building a contender around Dame. Olshey never did. But it's to the point where there will not be any single magic-bullet trade that will accomplish that. It will need to be a process that starts with a realistic appraisal of the terribly balanced roster, as individual trade assets. And again, with an opportunity for a high draft pick in 6 months, maybe a discussion with Dame about the reality Portland is facing.

 

[Phatguysrule]

To me the way we get stars is to make them when they get here before anyone else knows they are....like a Nas....that's what the Blazers fishing pond is....trades and drafts...when they are constantly a top 4 team in the league they'll get some older stars who will play to win but until then, our talent will probably come from home cookin' and great scouting

Agree 100%.

 

[FlashWad]

15 pick isn’t a lottery pick. Also- Bucks weren’t much of a joke. They were in ECF in 2001 and then had solid Bogut years.

for sure I was just using it as an example of how much the draft can transform a franchise that doesn't really get free agents. 2001 was almost more than 20 years ago we were also in the wcf 20 years ago about.