Should the Military Be Allowed to Detain Americans Indefinitely?

[bluefrog]

The Senate passed the National Defense Authorization Act today. The bill has gotten attention for the worldwide indefinite detention without charge or trial provision.

LINK

Bill supporters, including both Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin of Michigan and his GOP counterpart, John McCain of Arizona, successfully fended off a challenge Tuesday led by Sen. Mark Udall, D-Colo., with support from Tea Party conservative Sen. Rand Paul of Kentucky.

"We're fighting a war, not a crime," said Sen. Lindsey Graham, an Air Force Reserves military lawyer and key author of the nation's detainee treatment law. "Here's what we decided to do as a body today. America is part of the battlefield. We firmly believe the war is coming back home, so we're no longer going to have an absurd result that if we capture you overseas where you're planning attack on the United States, we can blow you up or put you in a military prison indefinitely. But if you make it to America, all of a sudden you get Miranda rights and you go to federal court. That's an absurd result; never been known in war before."

Levin cited the Supreme Court case of Hamdi which ruled that American citizens can be treated as enemy combatants:

“The Supreme Court has recently ruled there is no bar to the United States holding one of its own citizens as an enemy combatant,” said Levin. “This is the Supreme Court speaking.“

 

[GriLtCheeZ]

The terrorists are winning.

 

[THE HCP]

As an ex-Military Policeman I say YES!

 

[Denny Crane]

Rand Paul tried to fight it, but failed.

My view is that if someone fires at our troops and are captured, they can be held like POWs - until the war ends. If we swoop in and arrest someone who we claim is a terrorist, they deserve a trial - even if captured on foreign soil. If anyone is arrested here in the USA, they get miranda rights and the whole works.

One of these days they'll declare all hispanics as terrorists and throw them in jail without any rights. And as a hispanic causin' panic, they'll come for HCP first.

 

[Ed O]

The worst-case scenario for the application of that law seems to be that American citizens could be seized on American soil and then the PotUS would refrain from keeping them out of military process. Not a good outcome, and it seems like one that would be an unconstitutional exercise of power.

I have no problems denying non-citizens all of the rights that citizens are afforded by the Constitution, personally, whether they are in the US or not.

Ed O.

 

[Haakzilla]

Rand Paul tried to fight it, but failed.

My view is that if someone fires at our troops and are captured, they can be held like POWs - until the war ends. If we swoop in and arrest someone who we claim is a terrorist, they deserve a trial - even if captured on foreign soil. If anyone is arrested here in the USA, they get miranda rights and the whole works.

One of these days they'll declare all hispanics as terrorists and throw them in jail without any rights. And as a hispanic causin' panic, they'll come for HCP first.

[video=youtube;QJAMXXbiskY]

 

[huevonkiller]

Thank God for Rand Paul.

Fuck John McCain and he needs to read the Constitution. What a coward.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

This feels like the same thought process that led to the Japanese internment camps during WWII. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.

 

[HailBlazers]

Pretty F'ed up road were on here

 

[DaLincolnJones]

America is part of the battlefield. We firmly believe the war is coming back home,

I dont care what country you are in or where you are from, if you initiate an act of terror, or act in a war like manor, you should be treated as a combatent.

 

[BrianFromWA]

I'd submit that America hasn't been a part of the battlefield since Appamattox. There hasn't, in my recollection, been a single "home" that's been hit by anyone, combatant or not, since then (unless you want to include the Unabomber, maybe). LA Times building, WTC (both times), OKC, Pentagon, (even Pearl Harbor!), etc...none were homes or families.

Compare that with Europe in two world wars, Israel, Iraq, Vietnam, Congo, Korea, Afghanistan, etc. During those conflicts, people are looted, burned out of homes, bombed from the sky and from cars, shot for food, raped, etc. The average American citizen has no idea how unsanitary war is, and it's because our military is all-volunteer and expeditionary in nature.

There's also a reason that there's Title X, and posse comitatus. Constitutionally, I understand that you can't treat American citizens like combatants (notwithstanding whatever happened with Al-Awlaki, which still puzzles me).

 

[bluefrog]

America is part of the battlefield. We firmly believe the war is coming back home,

I dont care what country you are in or where you are from, if you initiate an act of terror, or act in a war like manor, you should be treated as a combatent.

How do know who is a terrorists though? The DHS has listed numerous mundane things as suspicious activity that could constitute terrorism, behavior that includes buying gold, owning guns, using a watch or binoculars, donating to charity, using the telephone or email to find information, using cash, etc....

 

[MARIS61]

The actual targets this legislation is aimed at are not terrorists, not immigrants illegal or otherwise, but certain economic classes of American citizens.

The roundup is going as planned.

Unless Obama vetoes it as promised, our government will have effectively been overthrown.

 

[MARIS61]

America is part of the battlefield. We firmly believe the war is coming back home,

I dont care what country you are in or where you are from, if you initiate an act of terror, or act in a war like manor, you should be treated as a combatent.

Is that a fancy term for a messy house?

 

[jlprk]

This is the type of issue that makes me think, if the Left and the Right ever got together on their points of agreement...intelligence agencies would never let that happen.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

This is the type of issue that makes me think, if the Left and the Right ever got together on their points of agreement...intelligence agencies would never let that happen.

I agree. People in this country tend to look at everything wrong with the government and say, "it's all the [insert the opposite of my political leanings]'s fault!" When, in fact, dems and repubs have more in common than they know, and the real issue is, and always will be, classism. Is there any surprise that all this is happening while #Occupy is going down? Try it again next year, hippies.

 

[Ed O]

It's not about classism. Republicans don't think that union members are more likely to try to blow up cities, and Democrats don't think that the 1% is, either.

This is an attempt to stop the "other" from damaging the American way of life. I think (and many agree with me) that it's an overstepping, but the intent (IMO) is not to inhibit hippies or teabaggers. It's to stop foreign influences from crippling us.

I think that's a legitimate goal--perhaps the single most legit reason for the existence of centralized government--but, again, we cannot sacrifice our citizens at the altar of pubic safety.

Ed O.

 

[jlprk]

the intent (IMO) is not to inhibit hippies or teabaggers. It's to stop foreign influences from crippling us.

As a lawyer, you probably know many examples of prosecutors making questionable interpretations, stretching laws past original intentions. To harass someone with a terrorism law, the word "terror" can be given an excessively broad definition.

 

[MARIS61]

There is no stretching required here. This bill outlaws Free Speech.

Any person speaking out in any manner of criticism against the criminals who have usurped our Government of the People will be picked up and disappeared for life. Maybe they will be held by the DHS, maybe they will just be dumped in a mass grave.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

There is no stretching required here. This bill outlaws Free Speech.

Any person speaking out in any manner of criticism against the criminals who have usurped our Government of the People will be picked up and disappeared for life. Maybe they will be held by the DHS, maybe they will just be dumped in a mass grave.

gotta give it to ya Maris, you do make me laugh. on a sid note, just how many years did you give to your country in the military?

 

[MARIS61]

gotta give it to ya Maris, you do make me laugh. on a sid note, just how many years did you give to your country in the military?

17 as a civilian in the US Army Corps of Engineers.

You?

 

[huevonkiller]

Rand Paul single handily killed Amendment 1274 to this bill. That amendment would have made it legal for the Government to detain you even if you are found NOT guilty in a criminal court.

Screw Democrats and Neocons.

 

[MARIS61]

Behind Closed Doors: Congress Trying to Force Indefinite Detention Bill on Americans

The Senate voted last Thursday to pass S. 1867, the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), which would authorize the president to send the military literally anywhere in the world to imprison civilians without charge or trial. Prison based on suspicion alone. The power is so sweeping that the president would be able to direct the military to use its powers within the United States itself, and even lock up American citizens without charge or trial.

No corner of the world, not even your own home, would be off-limits to the military. And there is no exception for American citizens. Section 1031 — one of the indefinite detention provisions — of the Senate-approved version of the NDAA has no limitations whatsoever based on geography, duration or citizenship. And the entire Senate bill was drafted in secret, with no hearing, and with committee votes behind closed doors.

I'm not sure which was more surprising — that the majority of senators ignored the pleas of countless constituents, or that they also ignored every top national security official opposed to the provisions. Opposition to the detention provisions came from Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta, CIA Director David Petraeus, FBI Director Robert Mueller, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, White House Advisor for Counterterrorism John Brennan, and DOJ National Security Division head Lisa Monaco. The Senate ignored them all.

Back in May, the House of Representatives passed its own version of the NDAA, which had a provision authorizing worldwide war wherever any terrorism suspect resides, even if there is no threat to America or Americans. Buried in the bill is a sentence that lets the president order the military to lock up without charge or trial American citizens and anyone else he decides is a suspect, even if the person is right here in America or in such friendly countries as Canada, Great Britain, or France.

Now, the two bills are in conference committee. The chairmen and ranking members of the Armed Services Committee — known as "the Big Four" — have been having one secret meeting after another over the past few days to quickly write a final bill. Who are the Big Four? From the Senate, it is Sens. Carl Levin (D-Mich.) and John McCain (R-Ariz.) who were the very two who had secretly written the Senate indefinite detention provisions. The third member is the House Armed Services Committee Chairman Buck McKeon (R-Calif.), who is the person who wrote the House indefinite detention provisions without so much as a hearing. And the fourth member is the House Armed Services Committee Ranking Member Adam Smith (D-Wash.), who courageously fought the indefinite detention provisions on the House floor.

That's 3-1 for indefinite military imprisonment without charge or trial. There's good reason to worry about what the Big Four do in their secret meetings.

What happens next? First, there will be a more formal House-Senate conference in the next few days to put an official stamp of approval on what the Big Four wrote in secret. And then the bills will be on the floors of the House and Senate by early next week.

Their plan is to move very, very fast. Congress certainly has earned a reputation for being slow, but the plan for the NDAA is to jam it through the House and Senate with as little debate as possible.

Amazingly, as soon as a week from today, a final bill could be passed by Congress and headed to President Obama's desk.

...Secret deals for indefinite military detention without charge or trial? Tell Congress we are better than that. It's not who we are as Americans, and it is not the country or the world we want to pass on to our children and grandchildren.

Now is the time to act and contact your senators and House member. Tell them vote "NO" on the NDAA if it includes indefinite detention without charge or trial.


http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-s...ing-force-indefinite-detention-bill-americans

 

[MARIS61]

Amendment 1274 was a planned diversion. The approved bill still completely obliterates The Fourth Amendment.

 

[Haakzilla]

...America and the Constitution is being gutted like a pig

 

[DaLincolnJones]

17 as a civilian in the US Army Corps of Engineers.

You?

I was looking for the armed forces aspect, not the postal service. The Army Corps of Engeneers do some very brave stuff, but I dont recall seeing civilians present at the time, they came in with the PX. (yes that was a slight jest)

Myself, nothing serious. Four years USCG, half SAR norpac, the other half TDY security, E5/po1, CPO offered for re up and declined.

The kids doing the heavy stuff are the guys I admire. The shame is we will have all these kids heading home to no jobs and an admin that wants to cut military benifits.

 

[BrianFromWA]

there are jobs in the engineering and trade fields. I just passed out to my reservists this week a request from a company in Green Bay who needs multiple welders and metal techs and isn't getting hits on their ads.

 

[BrianFromWA]

I'm seriously thinking about making a presentation for guidance counselors and the like about some of the creative ways to get funding and jobs that are out there right now. For instance, a junior in High School can do Running Start (or whatever it's called in your area) and go to CC for half of their HS classes their junior and senior year. Instead of American Lit in HS, take American Lit 101 and get college credit. Instead of taking AP Calculus, take Calculus 101 and get college credit. Etc. Graduate with your AA (potentially in a trade field) and diploma at 18.

If you don't want to go the military route, you're already a step ahead in getting an apprenticeship or entry-level job.
If you DO want to go the military route, there are a few options:
a) join the reserves, you have a 4 year commitment of 1 weekend a month, 2 weeks a year. You'll get additional training in a trade (welding, electronics, cooking, IT, construction, whatever floats your boat), some experience and some extra cash. You'll get 60k+ towards the GI bill, and if you like the reserves you can stay.
b) Finish your two years of college on a 2-year ROTC or NUPOC scholarship and get a free college degree and a guarantee of 5 years of employment when you finish. Again, you get training, leadership experience, a decent paycheck and the chance to do whatever you want (with some good skills and training and cash in your pocket) at 25.
c) Finish your degree however you can and join after you graduate. In this option you don't "owe" 5 years of your life, but you still get some good experience and leadership training and a chance to see if it's for you for a couple of years.

It's not for everyone, but there's more out there than just doom and gloom for young people motivated to do this kind of stuff.

And if anyone knows people who are thinking of joining the Navy, I'd be happy to give them a no-B.S. pitch that they won't hear from a recruiter about benefits, drawbacks, etc.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

Very nice post Brian. The sad thing is there are a lot of guys that fail to prepare for the outside. The military needs to do a better job of getting these guys ready it. The wait for any type of help for PTSD is 30 days give or take five. when most these guys get out they get papers a final pay and a ride home, period.

Being close to Operation Homefront, and getting a feel for the average, rather than the exception, has opened my eyes somewhat.

 

[BrianFromWA]

I'm going through the pre-deployment stuff now...I'm heading overseas this summer. I'm interested in the back-end stuff coming home. I know that for our units (reserve) they don't mess around with your Post-Deployment health assessments and Returning Warrior Workshops. They pay to have your spouse/significant other spend a long weekend with you and some counselors and some others who've been through it, so you get some tools to deal with the life change.

I can't speak for the active side, though.