So about that war on women...

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This is probably going to get me a lot of angry responses, but here goes... Why is the rape/incest question part of the abortion debate at all?

For those who oppose abortion--do you oppose it because you believe that terminating a pregnancy (wanted or not) is inherently wrong. Do the circumstances surrounding the pregnancy make termination less wrong? Why is that?

As for those who support universal abortion rights--why would it matter if an Ryan would support abortion in certain situations? Isn't he still opposing universal availability of a "right"? Would supporting abortion rights in rape/incest situations make Ryan worthy of support when he wasn't otherwise?
 
This is probably going to get me a lot of angry responses, but here goes... Why is the rape/incest question part of the abortion debate at all?

For those who oppose abortion--do you oppose it because you believe that terminating a pregnancy (wanted or not) is inherently wrong. Do the circumstances surrounding the pregnancy make termination less wrong? Why is that?

As for those who support universal abortion rights--why would it matter if an Ryan would support abortion in certain situations? Isn't he still opposing universal availability of a "right"? Would supporting abortion rights in rape/incest situations make Ryan worthy of support when he wasn't otherwise?

Well in many states, the father always has visitation rights to the child. Regardless if he raped the mother. That's not directly answering your question but I felt important to share.

More directly, If someone gets pregnant from sex and they were careless with using a contraceptive, that's very different than someone being forced to be put in a situation of possibly pregnancy.
 
Well in many states, the father always has visitation rights to the child. Regardless if he raped the mother. That's not directly answering your question but I felt important to share.

More directly, If someone gets pregnant from sex and they were careless with using a contraceptive, that's very different than someone being forced to be put in a situation of possibly pregnancy.

I understand the vast difference in the situation. What I fail to see is how that difference affects whether or not abortion is inherently wrong, as the anti-abortion lobby states. Is a fetus conceived through rape less of a "person" than a fetus conceived consensually?
 
I understand the vast difference in the situation. What I fail to see is how that difference affects whether or not abortion is inherently wrong, as the anti-abortion lobby states. Is a fetus conceived through rape less of a "person" than a fetus conceived consensually?

Perhaps not, but incest is another story.
 
What I don't get is why someone who favors abortion could oppose the death penalty. I see them as nearly one and the same thing.
 
What I don't get is why someone who favors abortion could oppose the death penalty. I see them as nearly one and the same thing.
Every sperm is sacred. Mastrubators are basically serial killers who deserve to be put to death. Wait, what?
 
What I don't get is why someone who favors abortion could oppose the death penalty. I see them as nearly one and the same thing.

Pretty easy, if the person doesn't view a fetus as a human life.

The person in prison for life could, conceivably, be self-sustaining if released from prison; society is simply not permitting self sustenance. The same cannot be said about the fetus. Therefore, the fetus is less a "life" than a death-row inmate is.
 
Pretty easy, if the person doesn't view a fetus as a human life.

The person in prison for life could, conceivably, be self-sustaining if released from prison; society is simply not permitting self sustenance. The same cannot be said about the fetus. Therefore, the fetus is less a "life" than a death-row inmate is.

The fetus is a human life, scientifically. DNA. Is it any less a life 1 day before birth? 2 days? etc.

BTW, I'm pro choice and pro death penalty.

Like I said, I see the two as basically the same thing (justified taking of a life).
 
The fetus is a human life, scientifically. DNA. Is it any less a life 1 day before birth? 2 days? etc.

BTW, I'm pro choice and pro death penalty.

Like I said, I see the two as basically the same thing (justified taking of a life).

Unfortunately, the definition of "life" varies from person to person. Some agree with you that life begins at conception. Others at birth. Others some point in between (such as when the fetus would be viable outside the womb). There is no universally accepted strict definition, regardless of how confident you are in yours.
 
Unfortunately, the definition of "life" varies from person to person. Some agree with you that life begins at conception. Others at birth. Others some point in between (such as when the fetus would be viable outside the womb). There is no universally accepted strict definition, regardless of how confident you are in yours.

Ah, so you agree that people JUSTIFY it. One way or another.

Or so it seems.
 
Ah, so you agree that people JUSTIFY it. One way or another.

Or so it seems.

Seems kind of arrogant to suggest that your perspective is the only valid one, and that any others are simply justifications.
 
Seems kind of arrogant to suggest that your perspective is the only valid one, and that any others are simply justifications.

I thought I agreed with you (as well) that people use all those things you posed as justifications.

"It's only a mass of cells" is justification (make people feel better about it) taking the life.

As I see it, there are a number of justifications for taking a life. Self defense (that's what abortion is to me), policeman fired upon shoots back, soldiers at war, assisted suicide, and so on. I should have added execution for capital crimes.
 
Seems kind of arrogant to suggest that your perspective is the only valid one, and that any others are simply justifications.

My view, btw, is based upon law.

In Roe v. Wade, the court ruled based upon viability of prenatal life, dividing pregnancy into trimesters. Each successive trimester, the state was given more power to regulate or deny abortions. As medicine has improved the viability of the fetus outside the womb from 28 weeks to 24 weeks, the courts have adjusted accordingly.

In a recent well publicized case, Scott Peterson was accused of murdering both his wife and unborn son. So the fetus is a life after all.

In Roe, the court found a 14th amendment right to privacy to justify a woman's right to choose. Some justices to this day do not see this right to privacy in the 14th. However, it's common sense, and in the spirit of Liberty, that each of us (including women!) have the right to their own selves (bodies). I'd also think that the ending of slavery would mean everyone has a right to "own" themselves vs. being owned by someone else (a fetus).

To expand on my own view from there:

The fetus and woman have claims to the woman's body. The woman must prevail due to the privacy right. It's really a slam dunk.

As far as the constitution goes, "no person shall be deprived of LIFE, Liberty or Property without due process," and Roe is the due process.
 
The fetus and woman have claims to the woman's body. The woman must prevail due to the privacy right. It's really a slam dunk.

Since every baby invades his mother's privacy by being inside her, a warrant for every baby's arrest should be issued when the doctor discovers the mother is pregnant. A police officer should be posted outside her home to deter her from absconding with him to Mexico. Upon birth in the hospital, the baby should be taken into custody before he can take flight and hide on the oncology floor.
 

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