So Basically, this guy says half the guys we've acquired are a bunch of losers.

[pegs]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetsDaily)</div><div class='quotemain'>Dave Berri of Wages of Wins isn’t buying the Nets’ line that they’re building a team with proven winners. Berri, the college prof with Moneyball-type stats, argues the Nets have chosen a motley group whose “wins produced” numbers are not likely to attract top-flight free agents like, say, Lebron James. “Yi, Dooling, Najera, and Hayes are not the core players a championship team requires”, he argues.</div>

Building a Winner in New Jersey? - Dave Berri - Wages of Wins Journal

Wages of Wins: The Nets will still stink - Ken Berger - Wages of Wins Journal

Ha. Najera and Dooling couldn't be part of a championship team? Right. When were they last on a team that didn't make the playoffs? Pretty silly to say we'll completely stink.

And what does he know about Yi? Is he predicting that after his rookie year, he'll just end up sucking? How can you judge him anyways, when he was on the same team as Maurice Williams AND Michael Redd in the backcourt, along with that crap coach?

 

[Real]

I think that this guy's never seen a girl naked besides his mother in his life.

 

[jtballa2o1]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real @ Jul 21 2008, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think that this guy's never seen a girl naked besides his mother in his life.</div>
lol

 

[Black Republican]

Im in middle. I dont agree, nor disagree.

 

[jtballa2o1]

I don't get it though, does he really think cause we signed a couple of proven guys that are productive that were not gonna win, and that superstars are gonna be turned away?? wow

 

[pegs]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real @ Jul 21 2008, 10:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think that this guy's never seen a girl naked besides his mother in his life.</div>

I don't think I wanna know.

 

[Chutney]

He wrote an article about the Raptors with that same Wages of Wins model. I had a hard time following it and didn't find it all that convincing.

 

[danxcr]

omg... articles like this makes me wish the season started already...

 

[Tang Man]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Jul 21 2008, 08:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And what does he know about Yi? Is he predicting that after his rookie year, he'll just end up sucking? How can you judge him anyways, when he was on the same team as Maurice Williams AND Michael Redd in the backcourt, along with that crap coach?</div>

While I am a supporter of Yi, I think he has a lot of hard work ahead of him to be a consistent player in the NBA. He has the tools and potential but will need a coach who will push him hard.

 

[Dumpy]

so, as I understand it, the Nets signed a bunch of players that are rated "average" in countable stats; have rid themselves of a bunch of players that were probably rated "below average" in countable stats such as Boki and Diop; will still trade or buy out a couple of other players rated "below average" such as Swift and Ager; and going back to last year, rid themselves of Antoine Wright, Malik Allen, and that fat slug whose name I can't remember, all of whom I am sure were rated "below average" by their metrics. They also got rid of Kidd, who may not have been rated very highly anyway by their model.

so, to recount, a team full of "average" players according to the "wages of wins" metrics will result in a terrible team? something is probably wrong here.

[i don't know their formulae, but i will guess that it doesn't account for the things that RJ did poorly and Najera does well]

 

[yinets1860]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tang Man @ Jul 21 2008, 09:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Jul 21 2008, 08:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And what does he know about Yi? Is he predicting that after his rookie year, he'll just end up sucking? How can you judge him anyways, when he was on the same team as Maurice Williams AND Michael Redd in the backcourt, along with that crap coach?</div>

While I am a supporter of Yi, I think he has a lot of hard work ahead of him to be a consistent player in the NBA. He has the tools and potential but will need a coach who will push him hard.
</div>

Agree with you,i am a Yi fan, hope Yi give team more help.

 

[Denny Crane]

As I understand it, Cleveland's current supporting cast is superior to the four Nets guys he mentioned in the article. It's not like one of them is Paul Pierce and the Nets just traded a draft pick for Ray Allen.

 

[Dumpy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 21 2008, 09:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>As I understand it, Cleveland's current supporting cast is superior to the four Nets guys he mentioned in the article. It's not like one of them is Paul Pierce and the Nets just traded a draft pick for Ray Allen.</div>

I don't understand your point, to be honest. Are you saying that the Cavaliers are better than the Nets, and therefore LeBron James won't sign with New Jersey when he is a free agent in two years? [my first reaction is to say good!]

 

[Cmoney707]

And the award for the longest thread title goes to................

PEGS!!!!!

Congratulations

 

[Cmoney707]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 21 2008, 10:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>As I understand it, Cleveland's current supporting cast is superior to the four Nets guys he mentioned in the article. It's not like one of them is Paul Pierce and the Nets just traded a draft pick for Ray Allen.</div>

How do you figure?

 

[Denny Crane]

Call me a non-biased observer. I'm not a Cavs fan or a Nets fan - any more than most of the teams in the leagues. The only thing I can see that Cleveland did was to trade for Ben Wallace, but then again, his big contract expires for the 2010 FA class.

 

[JCB]

I didn't read either article yet, but:

"Yi, Dooling, Najera, and Hayes are not the core players a championship team requires”

1) We're not a championship team, nor is any realistic fan expecting a championship team, so this is a pretty pointless statement if you ask me.

2) Dude's a dumbass if he's putting Dooling and Najera in that sentence. A solid back-up combo guard with good defense and a hustle player can't be core players on championship teams? That makes sense. I can understand putting Yi there because he's still young and Hayes because he's not going to do much besides score a few points each night, but the other two should not have been mentioned there.

 

[Dumpy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 21 2008, 09:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Call me a non-biased observer. I'm not a Cavs fan or a Nets fan - any more than most of the teams in the leagues. The only thing I can see that Cleveland did was to trade for Ben Wallace, but then again, his big contract expires for the 2010 FA class.</div>

is your point that the cavs are better than the Nets right now, and that the Nets won't contend in 2008-09? I think we're all with you on that one.

I personally think that the nets added some decent players, and subtracted some losers, and that their upside for the season is what the Sixers accomplished--a poor start as their young players tried to figure things out, then coming together in the second half and making the playoffs as one of the bottom seeds, and giving their fan base hope for the next season. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Dumpy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JCB @ Jul 21 2008, 09:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I didn't read either article yet, but:

"Yi, Dooling, Najera, and Hayes are not the core players a championship team requires”

1) We're not a championship team, nor is any realistic fan expecting a championship team, so this is a pretty pointless statement if you ask me.

2) Dude's a dumbass if he's putting Dooling and Najera in that sentence. A solid back-up combo guard with good defense and a hustle player can't be core players on championship teams? That makes sense. I can understand putting Yi there because he's still young and Hayes because he's not going to do much besides score a few points each night, but the other two should not have been mentioned there.</div>

it's their usual crap: "our metrics say X, but to understand what we are talking about, you have to buy our book, because we're not going to explain how we reached that conclusion in a free blog."

 

[CelticKing]

I don't think the team is much better than it was last season. And its not a given that you'll even get the 8th spot for the playoffs. The Cavs on the other hand are a contender, and maybe a player away from the championship.

I'm with Denny on this one.

 

[Dumpy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticKing @ Jul 21 2008, 10:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't think the team is much better than it was last season. And its not a given that you'll even get the 8th spot for the playoffs. The Cavs on the other hand are a contender, and maybe a player away from the championship.

I'm with Denny on this one.</div>

but I don't understand just what his point is. No one is suggesting that the Neta are better than the cavs. I just think that the Nets will be decent, and be at least as good as last year (when they missed the playoffs, BTW), and that their upside (if everything breaks right) is 40-45 wins. Of course, if Devin harris or Vince Carter get hurt, all bets will be off.

The Wages of Wins makes it seem like the Nets will be terrible, awful--and I just don't see that. There's a difference between awful and below average.

 

[Denny Crane]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Berri, the college prof with Moneyball-type stats, argues the Nets have chosen a motley group whose “wins produced” numbers are not likely to attract top-flight free agents like, say, Lebron James. “Yi, Dooling, Najera, and Hayes are not the core players a championship team requires”, he argues.</div>

That's what I was commenting on.

 

[Dumpy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 21 2008, 10:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Berri, the college prof with Moneyball-type stats, argues the Nets have chosen a motley group whose “wins produced” numbers are not likely to attract top-flight free agents like, say, Lebron James. “Yi, Dooling, Najera, and Hayes are not the core players a championship team requires”, he argues.</div>

That's what I was commenting on.
</div>

oh, OK. there are too many variables to consider before thinking about what might or might not happen in two years. Regardless, a 30-year-old, overpaid, declining Richard Jefferson certainly wouldn't have helped, either.

I don't know what to think about this current Nets team, but I think I've seen enough to renew League Pass for another season. I think it'll be fascinating to watch them.

 

[Denny Crane]

My take is that Carter is going to be... what, 34? ... and that's not going to be attractive to a LeBron. I like Harris a lot, but he's not a #2 option even.

Yi seems really raw (against NBA competition) but he's the key. If he develops into a 20/10 guy, then maybe you are starting to be attractive to LeBron. Even then, you have to look at the Lakers and Celtics as the kind of team that is the serious contender - three guys like LeBron in their primes. Or four even.

 

[Dumpy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 21 2008, 10:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>My take is that Carter is going to be... what, 34? ... and that's not going to be attractive to a LeBron. I like Harris a lot, but he's not a #2 option even.

Yi seems really raw (against NBA competition) but he's the key. If he develops into a 20/10 guy, then maybe you are starting to be attractive to LeBron. Even then, you have to look at the Lakers and Celtics as the kind of team that is the serious contender - three guys like LeBron in their primes. Or four even.</div>

I hope you're right. The idea of rooting for him makes me sick.

 

[pegs]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 21 2008, 11:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>My take is that Carter is going to be... what, 34? ... and that's not going to be attractive to a LeBron. I like Harris a lot, but he's not a #2 option even.

Yi seems really raw (against NBA competition) but he's the key. If he develops into a 20/10 guy, then maybe you are starting to be attractive to LeBron. Even then, you have to look at the Lakers and Celtics as the kind of team that is the serious contender - three guys like LeBron in their primes. Or four even.</div>

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the Nets are attempting to stockpile young talent.

And situations in Phoenix, Houston, Atlanta, and Chicago even aren't getting that much better. There's a chance they could pick off some unhappy star/quality player(s) from those teams, a la Boston.

As people keep saying, over and over again - you don't really know exactly what's going to happen in 2 years.

 

[Denny Crane]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Jul 21 2008, 08:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 21 2008, 11:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>My take is that Carter is going to be... what, 34? ... and that's not going to be attractive to a LeBron. I like Harris a lot, but he's not a #2 option even.

Yi seems really raw (against NBA competition) but he's the key. If he develops into a 20/10 guy, then maybe you are starting to be attractive to LeBron. Even then, you have to look at the Lakers and Celtics as the kind of team that is the serious contender - three guys like LeBron in their primes. Or four even.</div>

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the Nets are attempting to stockpile young talent.

And situations in Phoenix, Houston, Atlanta, and Chicago even aren't getting that much better. There's a chance they could pick off some unhappy star/quality player(s) from those teams, a la Boston.

As people keep saying, over and over again - you don't really know exactly what's going to happen in 2 years.
</div>

Again, non-biased observer, except for the Bulls, that is.

Phoenix? Amare is the top guy they have who might attract LeBron. I doubt he's going anywhere tho.

Houston? TMac. He's not going anywhere, either. Neither is Yao, if he could only stay healthy.

Atlanta? Joe Johnson and a lot of guys with p-p-p-p-potential. Joe's inked and not going anywhere.

Chicago? Their best player, Deng, is about the same as Harris.

I have noticed. The Nets did far better than expected this offseason, but the catch is that Lopez has to really pan out, you have to bank on a 2nd round pick becoming a star, and Yi has to step up about 4 levels.

The rest of the young talent isn't all that special, IMO.

 

[cpawfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 21 2008, 11:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>My take is that Carter is going to be... what, 34? ... and that's not going to be attractive to a LeBron. I like Harris a lot, but he's not a #2 option even.

Yi seems really raw (against NBA competition) but he's the key. If he develops into a 20/10 guy, then maybe you are starting to be attractive to LeBron. Even then, you have to look at the Lakers and Celtics as the kind of team that is the serious contender - three guys like LeBron in their primes. Or four even.</div>

I doubt Vince will be apart of the Nets if LBJ is landed. He is part of the now, not the then

 

[cpawfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 21 2008, 11:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Jul 21 2008, 08:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 21 2008, 11:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>My take is that Carter is going to be... what, 34? ... and that's not going to be attractive to a LeBron. I like Harris a lot, but he's not a #2 option even.

Yi seems really raw (against NBA competition) but he's the key. If he develops into a 20/10 guy, then maybe you are starting to be attractive to LeBron. Even then, you have to look at the Lakers and Celtics as the kind of team that is the serious contender - three guys like LeBron in their primes. Or four even.</div>

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the Nets are attempting to stockpile young talent.

And situations in Phoenix, Houston, Atlanta, and Chicago even aren't getting that much better. There's a chance they could pick off some unhappy star/quality player(s) from those teams, a la Boston.

As people keep saying, over and over again - you don't really know exactly what's going to happen in 2 years.
</div>

Again, non-biased observer, except for the Bulls, that is.

Phoenix? Amare is the top guy they have who might attract LeBron. I doubt he's going anywhere tho.

Houston? TMac. He's not going anywhere, either. Neither is Yao, if he could only stay healthy.

Atlanta? Joe Johnson and a lot of guys with p-p-p-p-potential. Joe's inked and not going anywhere.

Chicago? Their best player, Deng, is about the same as Harris.

I have noticed. The Nets did far better than expected this offseason, but the catch is that Lopez has to really pan out, you have to bank on a 2nd round pick becoming a star, and Yi has to step up about 4 levels.

The rest of the young talent isn't all that special, IMO.
</div>

Two more years of high lottery picks will change that for the better.

 

[CelticKing]

Still though the question remains why would LBJ come to a team to start rebuilding again? Because with the current team, there is no way that it would attract him unless like Denny said they become better than average and maybe stars in this league.

The biggest thing to remember is that with the Cavs, they've reached the finals already, and just this past playoffs lost to the best team in the NBA (of course the Celtics) and next season they'll be contending again, they also have better starters, and a better bench. A piece or two away from winning the championship next season IMHO, and also being a threat to become a dynasty for a few years. (kinda like the spurs or lakers)