So is Russell Westbrook the best PG ever?

[Strenuus]

I love you.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I was making a point about Paul.

I get that, but I assumed that the point would be consistent across the pantheon of NBA point guards. All the guys I listed were HOF caliber PGs who have, at the very least, reached the finals. Is it not a reasonable question to ask if there are other PG's that belong in the top 10 that I didn't list? I guess, other than Westbrook, whom I just now realized I omitted.

 

[Strenuus]

I get that, but I assumed that the point would be consistent across the pantheon of NBA point guards. All the guys I listed were HOF caliber PGs who have, at the very least, reached the finals. Is it not a reasonable question to ask if there are other PG's that belong in the top 10 that I didn't list? I guess, other than Westbrook, whom I just now realized I omitted.

They could be considered, then yes. Considered, not automatic.

 

[Draco]

But we're talking about top 10 of all time. They should be in the 3% to be considered in the top .0000001%... Otherwise, it's just a bunch of Kevin Love stat padders.

At least make the finals.

LeBron is better because he joined with other all stars in Miami to win two titles?

LaMarcus will be better if he wins a title in San Antonio than stayed a Blazer for life?

Barkley would've been better if he played with Jordan's Bulls and won a title?

Clyde is better for leaving the Blazers and winning a title with Hakeem?

I disagree with those types of judgements of players. There's far more to the game than a single line between title winners and losers. There's many title winning teams that are far inferior teams to other season playoff losers.

If CP3 had lead a team to titles sure it would help his legacy. Maybe he'd be considered the best PG of all time. Lack of a title doesn't automatically put him behind every top PG with a title.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Depends on how you define best. Best stat-whoring, ball-hogging, hero-ball playing, choke artist - most definitely. Best at winning basketball games when it matters - not even close.

Westbrook is sharing the ball much better under Billy Donovan than he ever did under Scotty Brooks, but it will be interesting to see if that carries over to the big stage of the playoffs, where Westbrook has a long history of freezing out his much more efficient scoring former MVP and 4-time scoring champion teammate. And, even with Westbrook's improved team pay this year, the Thunder still struggle mightily in the 4th quarter of close games - something that has plagued that team Westbrook's entire career.

Avoiding Crunch Time Key for Russell Westbrook, Thunder

Yeah, I know it's the Bleacher Report, but you may want to actually read the article before you LOL. He sites numerous sources that tell us what most of us already know - the Thunder STILL suck in close game situations - primarily because the player who dominates the ball in those situations is a poor outside shooter (career 30% 3FG%) under the best of conditions who resorts to hero ball, freezing out his more efficient scoring teammates, and commits unforced turnovers at an alarming rate with the game on the line.

"they've lost 10 games in which they entered the fourth quarter with a lead this year, per ESPN Stats & Info.

That crunch-time frailty was the major topic heading into the contest for good reason. There were some truly alarming numbers associated with it.

Coming into Wednesday's game, the Thunder's net rating in the final five minutes of close games (within five points) was a frightening minus-1.7, per NBA.com. For reference, the Golden State Warriors led the league at plus-41.8, the Spurs were second at plus-22.8 and the Clips ranked 10th at plus-9.0. OKC's inability to control things when it matters most drew a bright line between it and the rest of the West's elite.

Through March 8, only 41.5 percent of the Thunder's clutch field goals came via assists—the league's fifth-lowest figure. That number stands out starkly against their overall assisted field-goal rate of 55.4 percent, though teams always see assist rates drop in the clutch. In addition to turnovers and some shaky defense, the Thunder's pass-free offense has been killing them in close games.

And, Westbrook's clutch field-goal percentage of 34.9 percent was the lowest on the Thunder (among players who'd taken at least 10 shots in those situations), per B/R Insights."

So, even with Westbrook's new found team-friendly play, he still resorts to hero ball (pass-free offense) in crunch time and, as in the past, it still costs his team games. Their assist rate goes way down in crunch time when Westbrook takes over, in spite of his very poor clutch field goal percentage. In other words, when the game is on the line, he's still the same old Westbrick.

And then there's also the same old problem with unforced turnovers. When they lost at home to MIN earlier this month, Westbrook had 9 TOVs, including 6 where no one else on his team even touched the ball.

In terms of the playoffs, Westbrook is just a god-awful ball hog late in close games. He plays like absolute shit, but completely freezes out his teammates, especially the much more clutch Kevin Durant. Here's some interesting numbers comparing clutch time playoff performance between Westbrook and Durant (Clutch Time: During the 4th quarter or overtime, with less than five minutes remaining, and neither team ahead by more than five points):

2013-14 (the last time the Thunder made the playoffs):
Kevin Durant: FGM = 17, FGA = 33, EFG% = .545
Russell Westbrook: FGM = 14, FGA = 46, EFG% = .348

That season, Kevin Durant won the MVP and led the league in scoring at 32.0ppg. So why, with the game on the line in the playoffs, was Russell Westbrook taking nearly one and a half times as many shots as the much more efficient MVP and scoring champ? One word: ego. Westbrook craves the spotlight and wants to be the hero. The problem is, he collapses like a cheap lawn chair in a hurricane with the game on the line. Scott Brooks never had the balls/clout to rein him in for the good of the team. Will Billy Donovan? Time will tell, but I doubt it. Westbrook is who he is. He's in his 8th NBA season and still makes rookie mistakes at an alarming rate with the game on the line. I don't know if you can unteach that at this point.

Westbrook is a phenomenal athlete, but a mental midget. He thinks he's better than he is and tries to do too much when the game is on the line (ill-advised shots, freezing out his teammates and unforced turnovers). In terms of overall greatness, he ranks WAY behind Magic. I'd also rank him way behind Steph Curry, who has an MVP and a ring, with possibly more of both to come. When it comes to clutch time performance, Curry (clutch time EFG% = .621) is the anti-Westbrook. In fact, with the game on the line, especially in the playoffs, I don't even think Westbrook is in the top 25 all-time PGs. Guys like John Stockton, Isaiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Terry Porter, Tony Parker, Gary Payton, Steve Nash, Allen Iverson, Chauncey Billups, Sam Cassell and even Derek Fisher have all hit more big time shots in the post season, and shot the ball much better, than Westbrook has. Clearly, some of these guys aren't in the same league overall as Westbrook, but everyone of them, and many others, have all done something Russell Westbrook has never done - stepped up and knocked down the big game winning shots that helped their teams advance in the playoffs.

Best ever PG? Until he starts helping, rather than hurting, his team in the post season, he's not even close.

BNM

 

[riverman]

This thread belongs in OT or on the Thunder's homepage...Go Blazers! Westbrook is an amazing athlete...see how long his body holds up to playing highlight reel ball. He plays with a great shooter....always good for assists. Not going down in the record books as a great finisher of games though in my view

 

[Boob-No-More]

I disagree with those types of judgements of players. There's far more to the game than a single line between title winners and losers. There's many title winning teams that are far inferior teams to other season playoff losers.

Agreed, in general. There are plenty of HOF PGs who stepped up and elevated their games n the post season, but still never won a championship (check out the clutch time playoff shooting stats for John Stockton and especially Steve Nash sometime). Not because they weren't all-time greats, they just lost to better teams. At the end of the day, great players rise to the occasion, but can still loose to a great team. Stockton and Malone ran into the Jordan/Pippen Bulls. Nash couldn't get past the great Spurs and Lakers teams that both won multiple titles. He was a great player, but those Lakers and Spurs teams had some of the greatest players (and coaches) ever.

Westbrook plays next to a 4-time NBA scoring champ and former MVP, but hurts his team in the playoffs, unlike Stockton and Nash who took their teams as far as they possibly could, before losing to a superior team. Westbrook may be way more athletic than those guys (and Magic and Isaiah Thomas) and may have better regular season individual stats, but he's fallen flat on his face repeatedly in the post season. I don't recall any of those guys being THE reason their teams failed. I don't recall Magic ever freezing out Kareem or Worthy, or Stockton freezing out Malone, the way Westbrook constantly freezes out Durant to the detriment of his team. Westbrook can't hit the big shots necessary to win the big games in the playoffs, but also refuses to give the ball to the guy who can.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

This thread belongs in OT or on the Thunder's homepage...Go Blazers! Westbrook is an amazing athlete...see how long his body holds up to playing highlight reel ball. He plays with a great shooter....always good for assists. Not going down in the record books as a great finisher of games though in my view

Yeah, Durant is such a match-up nightmare. Any PG should average 8 APG just handing the ball to Durant and letting him shoot over his much shorter defender. No playmaking skills required - just give him the ball and get the hell out of the way.

BNM

 

[STOMP]

jeesh.

9x all star

led league in steals 5 straight years

highest career PER of any PG in history

the best ORTG of any player in NBA history

3rd highest ws/48 of any player in nba history

3rd highest box p/m of any player in nba history

2nd highest assist% in nba history

7 time all-defense (5 times 1st team)

7 time all nba (4 times 1st team)

i mean, jeesh.

but we (the overwelming collective wisdom of this forum back then) didn't want to draft this dominant guard because we had the league's next superstar, Sebastian Telfair. True story

STOMP

 

[MarAzul]

Eric, you really ought to be ashamed of yourself. Oscar averaged a triple double over his first five seasons. Nobody compares to him in that regard.

Right you are sir. But he won a championship the first year he got his A/M greater than 1.0.

 

[Draco]

but we (the overwelming collective wisdom of this forum back then) didn't want to draft this dominant guard because we had the league's next superstar, Sebastian Telfair. True story

STOMP

I don't know about that, a lot of posters thought it was dumb to reach for Martell or Gerald Green when other teams wouldn't take them in the lottery. Seemed like a total waste of winning the 3rd pick. Can't even remember what Utah gave us.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Can't even remember what Utah gave us.

Here's a hint...

 

[STOMP]

I don't know about that, a lot of posters thought it was dumb to reach for Martell or Gerald Green when other teams wouldn't take them in the lottery. Seemed like a total waste of winning the 3rd pick. Can't even remember what Utah gave us.

Utah traded Portland three 1st round picks for the #3... #6 & #27 in 2005 and the #30 in 2006. Nash deftly turned that into Martell, Jarrett Jack (who he traded up 5 spots for with a 2nd) & Joel Freeland.

trust me you're wrong on other posters wanting Chris Paul. I was pretty much alone arguing for him and every time I brought it up I was shot down by a cascade of Telfair fanboys. A good part of my childhood was in Winston Salem rooting for the Demon Deacons, so I'd seen quite a bit of Paul and was convinced of his potential. It absolutely killed me to see them pass on him. At least this monumental mistake helped drop the ax down on the worst GM in the history of the franchise.

STOMP

 

[Boob-No-More]

Utah traded Portland three 1st round picks for the #3... #6 & #27 in 2005 and the #30 in 2006. Nash deftly turned that into Martell, Jarrett Jack (who he traded up 5 spots for with a 2nd) & Joel Freeland.

trust me you're wrong on other posters wanting Chris Paul. I was pretty much alone arguing for him and every time I brought it up I was shot down by a cascade of Telfair fanboys. A good part of my childhood was in Winston Salem rooting for the Demon Deacons, so I'd seen quite a bit of Paul and was convinced of his potential. It absolutely killed me to see them pass on him. At least this monumental mistake helped drop the ax down on the worst GM in the history of the franchise.

STOMP

I for one, never wanted Telfair. I thought Nash was insane to make him a lottery pick. He was the lottery pick less than 6'7" taken directly out of high school. He was also the leading SCORER in NY state high school history, not the all time leader in assists. 6'0" shoot first PGs with no jump shot may do well against high school competition, but were not, and never will be, worth a NBA lottery pick. Conventional wisdom was to take Al Jefferson with the 13th pick, and then if Nash REALLY wanted Telfair, he could have taken him with the 22nd or 23rd pick. NOBODY else picking between 13 and 22 had even the slightest interest in taking Telfair - for good reason. Nash was REALLY disconnected with what other teams were planning to do. Pritchard may have had his flaws, but he totally owned CHI, CHA, BOS, MIN and HOU in that 2006 draft. Nash monumentally fucked up the 2004 draft and then followed that up by monumentally fucking up the 2005 draft by being too stupid/stubborn to realize/admit his first fuck up. I can't even imagine how he would have fucked up the 2006 draft if he'd been left in charge. We probably would have ended up with Adam Morrison and Patrick O'Bryant instead of Roy and Aldridge.

BNM