Some GREAT info from Quick (What Billups investigation took place, where Dame stands with the Team)

[B-Roy]

The problem is... the avenues Olshey has to bring in a legit star are not very clear. And I dunno, after everything Dame has publicly said before, I don't see him as the kinda guy to throw his teammates under the bus. Maybe he's changed?

He hasn't thrown his teammates under the bus, at least not publicly. I don't see him ever doing that.

But they need to swing big. Everyone knew the Holiday trade was an overpay last year, but the Bucks had to do it. Who is our Holiday? Every offseason a star or near star player gets traded that make people say "wow, I didn't know he was on the market" or "wow, I can't believe X got THAT much".

And no, I don't think swinging McCollum for Simmons, even in a 1:1 swap will make Dame happy. I think Dame views those two players on the same tier.

 

[Natebishop3]

He hasn't thrown his teammates under the bus, at least not publicly. I don't see him ever doing that.

But they need to swing big. Everyone knew the Holiday trade was an overpay last year, but the Bucks had to do it. Who is our Holiday? Every offseason a star or near star player gets traded that make people say "wow, I didn't know he was on the market" or "wow, I can't believe X got THAT much".

And no, I don't think swinging McCollum for Simmons, even in a 1:1 swap will make Dame happy. I think Dame views those two players on the same tier.

You think so? I would think that keeping Norm and bringing in Simmons would be a pretty massive step in the right direction.

 

[illmatic99]

He hasn't thrown his teammates under the bus, at least not publicly. I don't see him ever doing that.

But they need to swing big. Everyone knew the Holiday trade was an overpay last year, but the Bucks had to do it. Who is our Holiday? Every offseason a star or near star player gets traded that make people say "wow, I didn't know he was on the market" or "wow, I can't believe X got THAT much".

And no, I don't think swinging McCollum for Simmons, even in a 1:1 swap will make Dame happy. I think Dame views those two players on the same tier.

He's no star but Neil did trade 2 first rounders for Roco last year thinking he was the missing piece because Dame said "go for it." the problem this year is we have 0 assets.

 

[Scalma]

He hasn't thrown his teammates under the bus, at least not publicly. I don't see him ever doing that.

But they need to swing big. Everyone knew the Holiday trade was an overpay last year, but the Bucks had to do it. Who is our Holiday? Every offseason a star or near star player gets traded that make people say "wow, I didn't know he was on the market" or "wow, I can't believe X got THAT much".

And no, I don't think swinging McCollum for Simmons, even in a 1:1 swap will make Dame happy. I think Dame views those two players on the same tier.

olshey spent a good portion of his press conference mentioning how getting another star doesn’t automatically mean you get closer to a championship. Then he used some of the teams in the conference finals as examples. I’m not sure Dame is getting as deep with his demands as you’re suggesting.

 

[B-Roy]

Okay, seriously though. How many firsts for Siakam? Bucks traded 3 firsts (unprotected!!) and 2 swaps for Holiday. Our firsts are going to be much more valuable because let's be honest, our team is more likely to combust because it's not as good as the Bucks roster even after adding Siakam.

I just can't figure out a way to match salaries without moving McCollum...

 

[B-Roy]

He's no star but Neil did trade 2 first rounders for Roco last year thinking he was the missing piece because Dame said "go for it." the problem this year is we have 0 assets.

And I think he did that because Dame wanted RoCo (and Jones). Clearly RoCo (and Jones) was not good enough, and I think that is part of Neil's frustration with Dame as well. "You asked for these guys, what more do you want?"

0 assets is not true by the way.

We have all our firsts since we can trade our 2022 first after the draft. 2022 first, 2023 swap, 2024 first, 2025 swap, 2026 first. That's the Holiday package. Add in Little/Simons and maybe figure out a way to S&T Powell and it's definitely not nothing. An unprotected 2026 pick will be super valuable. I know Neil hates trading future firsts, but he may have to because he won't on the job to make those picks if Dame asks out.

 

[B-Roy]

You think so? I would think that keeping Norm and bringing in Simmons would be a pretty massive step in the right direction.

I'm talking about Dame's perception. I think we clearly need to add, not just replace. We know Dame has a high opinion of CJ. Probably higher than most people in the league.

 

[Natebishop3]

Okay, seriously though. How many firsts for Siakam? Bucks traded 3 firsts (unprotected!!) and 2 swaps for Holiday. Our firsts are going to be much more valuable because let's be honest, our team is more likely to combust because it's not as good as the Bucks roster even after adding Siakam.

I just can't figure out a way to match salaries without moving McCollum...

CJ has to go. If the team hasn't learned at this point that we can't win with him and Dame on defense, I seriously question how intelligent our front office is.

 

[B-Roy]

olshey spent a good portion of his press conference mentioning how getting another star doesn’t automatically mean you get closer to a championship. Then he used some of the teams in the conference finals as examples. I’m not sure Dame is getting as deep with his demands as you’re suggesting.

Dame has to see the other (contender) teams that have traded the "future package" for star/near-star level players in the past few years right? Here I'll name them:

Lakers
Clippers
Heat
Brooklyn
Milwaukee
Houston

You don't think that's the core of the disconnect between Olshey and Dame? Olshey doesn't want to do that. He wants to tinker on the margins and keep future flexibility. Dame wants to win now, he's 31 already, put up MVP level season/playoff performances, and got bounced by a team that got swept the next round.

And yes, I'm aware most of those teams are not in the conference finals now, and some failed (Houston lol), but if we don't meaningfully improve the roster to a point where Dame is confident in it, he is asking out. I guarantee it. Olshey basically said as much yesterday.

You also HAD to have noticed how his tone regarding the roster was completely different than his tone in the press conference after we lost to Denver right? In that one, he was talking about "minimal roster changes". The one yesterday he spent paragraphs talking about how he needs to improve the roster. That is because of Dame.

 

[Natebishop3]

I'm talking about Dame's perception. I think we clearly need to add, not just replace. We know Dame has a high opinion of CJ. Probably higher than most people in the league.

This is why I have been so frustrated with Dame. On the one hand, I have wanted him to put pressure on the team to make changes..... but he can't simultaneously expect us to keep his best friend despite CJ being a horrible fit. Either he wants to win, and the team needs to make massive changes to contend, or this is his own personal fun clubhouse. It can't be both ways.

Trading CJ for a similar star at another position opens up so many options at shooting guard, and should hopefully make the team run smoother. If Dame doesn't see that, you just make the trade and hope that winning changes his mind. Because bringing back CJ will have similar results next season. I don't see much changing with those two still starting together.

 

[riverman]

Dame has to see the other (contender) teams that have traded the "future package" for star/near-star level players in the past few years right? Here I'll name them:

Lakers
Clippers
Heat
Brooklyn
Milwaukee
Houston

You don't think that's the core of the disconnect between Olshey and Dame? Olshey doesn't want to do that. He wants to tinker on the margins and keep future flexibility. Dame wants to win now, he's 31 already, put up MVP level season/playoff performances, and got bounced by a team that got swept the next round.

And yes, I'm aware most of those teams are not in the conference finals now, and some failed (Houston lol), but if we don't meaningfully improve the roster to a point where Dame is confident in it, he is asking out. I guarantee it. Olshey basically said as much yesterday.

If Olshey doesn't do what it takes to build a winning team, it's Olshey that's out, not Dame....one of those two guys is replaceable, the other is not and don't think for a second that Dame doesn't know this

 

[tester551]

The problem is... the avenues Olshey has to bring in a legit star are not very clear. And I dunno, after everything Dame has publicly said before, I don't see him as the kinda guy to throw his teammates under the bus. Maybe he's changed?

Olshey has boxed himself into a corner. He doesn't have many tools to improve the team. Even keeping the status quo of last season will be difficult (with the likelihood of loosing Powell).

 

[tester551]

This is why I have been so frustrated with Dame. On the one hand, I have wanted him to put pressure on the team to make changes..... but he can't simultaneously expect us to keep his best friend despite CJ being a horrible fit. Either he wants to win, and the team needs to make massive changes to contend, or this is his own personal fun clubhouse. It can't be both ways.

Trading CJ for a similar star at another position opens up so many options at shooting guard, and should hopefully make the team run smoother. If Dame doesn't see that, you just make the trade and hope that winning changes his mind. Because bringing back CJ will have similar results next season. I don't see much changing with those two still starting together.

I'm not convinced that Dame would have ANY issue with trading CJ as long as the talent level increased. The holdup on a trade has always been Olshey.

 

[illmatic99]

And I think he did that because Dame wanted RoCo (and Jones). Clearly RoCo (and Jones) was not good enough, and I think that is part of Neil's frustration with Dame as well. "You asked for these guys, what more do you want?"

0 assets is not true by the way.

We have all our firsts since we can trade our 2022 first after the draft. 2022 first, 2023 swap, 2024 first, 2025 swap, 2026 first. That's the Holiday package. Add in Little/Simons and maybe figure out a way to S&T Powell and it's definitely not nothing. An unprotected 2026 pick will be super valuable. I know Neil hates trading future firsts, but he may have to because he won't on the job to make those picks if Dame asks out.

in this scenario are you trading CJ or making him the 2nd/3rd "star?

 

[B-Roy]

If Olshey doesn't do what it takes to build a winning team, it's Olshey that's out, not Dame....one of those two guys is replaceable, the other is not and don't think for a second that Dame doesn't know this

If Dame asks out we are going to trade him. Players have the power, no matter how long their contracts are. And the team isn't going to hold him hostage.

I don't think Dame wants to leave. He wants to win IN PORTLAND. But he's on the clock. He can't wait for 2-3 years for our draft picks to develop. Especially when he just saw what happened to our last top 10 pick.

The solace of moving the futures package is that, even if it fails, we can likely recoup some of our investment in a Dame trade. Not all, but some.

 

[Chris Craig]

If it gets edited or deleted it's because you personally insulted someone.

Or you responded to one that did and we took out all the replies to it.

Or you are talking politics in the main forum

 

[Scalma]

I'm not convinced that Dame would have ANY issue with trading CJ as long as the talent level increased. The holdup on a trade has always been Olshey.

And not CJs value around the league? Olshey overvalues him, but he’s also overpaid. I think it’s gonna take more than just CJ to get a clear upgrade. We’re probably gonna have to add picks or a young asset like Simons or Nas, unless we do a trade for Simmons, where a straight up deal would probably make sense for both sides.

The better question though is, outside of Simmons, who would we target? Quick mentioned Boston. Would swapping CJ for Smart be a clear upgrade?

 

[B-Roy]

in this scenario are you trading CJ or making him the 2nd/3rd "star?

Here's what I think.

If you trade CJ, and replace him with someone on the same tier, that doesn't make Dame happy.

If you add a meaningful player to the team and don't trade CJ, he will be happy (for now).

If you trade CJ, and replace him with two players on the same tier, or one player and another starter, he will be happy (for now).

Both scenarios take into account that we retain Powell, assume losing Powell makes Dame unhappy. You have to keep him, or trade him for something similar.

So I'm not saying don't trade CJ, but a lateral move won't make Dame happy. Just how I'm reading things. And no I don't know what trades are out there or what deals are possible that match one or the other criteria. That is Olshey's job. But if he spends another season tinkering on the margins or just re-signs Powell and some minimum guys, I think Dame will be pissed.

 

[Natebishop3]

If you trade CJ, and replace him with someone on the same tier, that doesn't make Dame happy.

Are you basing this on something you read or just a gut feeling?

 

[Natebishop3]

The holdup on a trade has always been Olshey.

Do we really know that for sure?

 

[illmatic99]

olshey spent a good portion of his press conference mentioning how getting another star doesn’t automatically mean you get closer to a championship. Then he used some of the teams in the conference finals as examples. I’m not sure Dame is getting as deep with his demands as you’re suggesting.

it's also flawed thinking. the easiest way to contend is with stars-- this season is an anomaly.

Let's not forget that:
-Clippers have two of the best two-way players in the league including a top 5 player.
-Phoenix has two All-NBA caliber players and a budding all star in Ayton, and the absolute perfect complement of players. Also, if Davis were healthy, there is no way the Lakers don't beat them.
-Milwaukee has two All-NBA caliber players and the best guard defender in the league.
-Atlanta is bit flukish, does anyone believe they're for real? They caught lightning in a bottle and are only here because Ben Simmons had an unprecedented meltdown.
-Nearly every other top 10 player had an injury or had his best teammate get injured in the playoffs.

i don't like this model for team building. It's not sustainable if we want to contend-- a lot had to go right for these teams to be where they are.

Rather, I would start with Dame, put a definitive top 20 player around him with whom he has synergy (total > sum of the individual parts), someone with potential to climb into top 30 (this was supposed to be nurk), and complementary players who can be serviceable on the court at the ends of playoff games.

 

[wizenheimer]

I was a fan of moving McCollum for depth pieces before this stuff about Dame came out. Now I think if you move McCollum and don't get someone better in return Dame is asking out immediately....

"better in return".....??...what does that mean? Portland has to trade $75 for $100 or Dame will ask out?

how would anyone know, Dame included, if a trade improved the team until a season has been played? A trade of CJ could have many moving parts. It could be something like CJ for a RoCo-level SF/PF with a much lower salary that allowed the Blazers to use their full-MLE while moving Powell into the SG role. That could be a significant upgrade overall, but the straight CJ for player X wouldn't have been for a "better talent". Just a better fit that allowed two or three other positive dominoes to fall

if the only CJ trade contemplated is CJ for an all-star that's major mismanagement

 

[B-Roy]

Are you basing this on something you read or just a gut feeling?

Based on every leak/report regarding Dame and yes a gut feeling. Dame has a high opinion of CJ, maybe not as high as Olshey, but definitely up there.

I know everyone here thinks moving McCollum for Simmons makes us better, but does it make us a contender? I don't think so, and I don't think Dame thinks so either.

Olshey's comments yesterday were eye-opening to me and made all the sense in the world. Some direct quotes

"Making sure that he's confident in Portland.
“He loves Portland,”
“Every conversation is that he doesn’t want to leave Portland. He wants to retire a Trail Blazer. He’s expressed that to me and the stakeholders in the company.”
“Dame’s happiness always revolves around winning and having a chance to win at the highest level,”
“Chauncey is going to inherit that now. But the ultimate responsibility for that falls on me and my staff to put a team together that we can walk into the beginning of the season and think it has a chance to compete for a championship.”
"And I told Dame, that if you have to drive my butt everyday to make sure we're out on a limb, we're taking risks, we're doing everything we can to build a roster that you feel and the rest of the team feel can walk in with the swagger that the roster isn't the reason why we can't win a championship"

Talks a lot about Dame's confidence and Dame's feeling towards the roster. It doesn't have to be stars. Holiday wasn't an all-star last year or the year before. But it has to be meaningful.

 

[Natebishop3]

it's also flawed thinking. the easiest way to contend is with stars-- this season is an anomaly.

Let's not forget that:
-Clippers have two of the best two-way players in the league including a top 5 player.
-Phoenix has two All-NBA caliber players and a budding all star in Ayton, and the absolute perfect complement of players. Also, if Davis were healthy, there is no way the Lakers don't beat them.
-Milwaukee has two All-NBA caliber players and the best guard defender in the league.
-Atlanta is bit flukish, does anyone believe they're for real? They caught lightning in a bottle and are only here because Ben Simmons had an unprecedented meltdown.
-Nearly every other top 10 player had an injury or had his best teammate get injured in the playoffs.

i don't like this model for team building. It's not sustainable if we want to contend-- a lot had to go right for these teams to be where they are.

Rather, I would start with Dame, put a definitive top 20 player around him with whom he has synergy (total > sum of the individual parts), someone with potential to climb into top 30 (this was supposed to be nurk), and complementary players who can be serviceable on the court at the ends of playoff games.

Atlanta feels kind of like us a couple years ago. They had all the right cards fall on the table to get them to the Finals (potentially) but I think they get absolutely exposed by Phoenix.

 

[illmatic99]

Here's the framework for what I am saying.

Send every pick and pick swap from now to eternity to Minnesota.

 

[B-Roy]

"better in return".....??...what does that mean? Portland has to trade $75 for $100 or Dame will ask out?

how would anyone know, Dame included, if a trade improved the team until a season has been played? A trade of CJ could have many moving parts. It could be something like CJ for a RoCo-level SF/PF with a much lower salary that allowed the Blazers to use their full-MLE while moving Powell into the SG role. That could be a significant upgrade overall, but the straight CJ for player X wouldn't have been for a "better talent". Just a better fit that allowed two or three other positive dominoes to fall

if the only CJ trade contemplated is CJ for an all-star that's major mismanagement

I don't think Dame would feel much better about the roster if that happened. Just don't. Don't care if you disagree, it's just how I'm reading the tea leaves from everything that's happened since we got eliminated.

Think we need to push all our future firsts on the table to add to this current group. Its not just trading CJ. Trading CJ can be part of it for sure.

2022 first, 2023 swap, 2024 first, 2025 swap, 2026 first. That's super valuable, especially the later picks. I don't care who tells you otherwise.

That's our package. Now go out and find someone willing to make that deal.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

If you trade CJ, and replace him with two players on the same tier, or one player and another starter, he will be happy (for now).

If that's what it takes to make Dame happy, use any/every asset possible to make a deal like this (Zach is only in there to make the trade machine happy).

 

[Natebishop3]

Based on every leak/report regarding Dame and yes a gut feeling. Dame has a high opinion of CJ, maybe not as high as Olshey, but definitely up there.

I know everyone here thinks moving McCollum for Simmons makes us better, but does it make us a contender? I don't think so, and I don't think Dame thinks so either.

Olshey's comments yesterday were eye-opening to me and made all the sense in the world. Some direct quotes





Talks a lot about Dame's confidence and Dame's feeling towards the roster. It doesn't have to be stars. Holiday wasn't an all-star last year or the year before. But it has to be meaningful.

I wish we would have fired Stotts a couple years ago and hired Chauncey because I have always been curious what a new coach/new system could do with Dame and CJ.... but the time is up. Dame is 31. And Neil traded GTJ for Norm. I'm not convinced Norm comes back as a small forward. It didn't have great results.

 

[B-Roy]

If that's what it takes to make Dame happy, use any/every asset possible to make a deal like this.

View attachment 39325

Interesting, but how many picks go to who?

Also Collins can't be traded unless it's a S&T. Who is going to want someone that can't play next season? I think just cut the Wizards out, move Nurk to Toronto. Figure out the pick situation. Most will go to Toronto, but I don't think Philly does a straight swap, so it's hard.

 

[illmatic99]

If that's what it takes to make Dame happy, use any/every asset possible to make a deal like this.

View attachment 39325

pretty much aligned with what I was thinking too, but I don't like the Siakam-Simmons fit. Pascal needs a lot of space for his spin moves and Ben would occupy that same area. I would do anything and everything possible to put Dame together with Simmons and Towns instead. The value difference can't be much between KAT and Siakam.