Spoke too soon?

[PtldPlatypus]

So what is your opinion for Cronin's motive to either reject better offers and/or not even reach out to other teams for offers many weeks in advance?

That question is based on a flawed premise. It's wholly possible that he sought better offers and didn't receive them, yet also reasonable to conclude that he made a bad trade because he consummated a deal 6 days before the deadline rather than waiting for buyers in a sellers market to improve their offers. Those two statements are not inherently contradictory.

 

[Tince]

That question is based on a flawed premise. It's wholly possible that he sought better offers and didn't receive them, yet also reasonable to conclude that he made a bad trade because he consummated a deal 6 days before the deadline rather than waiting for buyers in a sellers market to improve their offers. Those two statements are not inherently contradictory.

Well, I think it's fair to assume he knew there was still 6 days left before the trade deadline, right? So what reason do you suspect he didn't want until the end? I can think of a few reasons:

1. He was worried the LAC deal wouldn't be on the table in 5 days and he would get stuck with an even worse deal (yes, there could've been worse deals)
2. He felt the trade allowed him better chips in future deals in the remaining 6 days that the league wanted more than Norm/RoCo
3. He and his staff wanted to act panicked to show ownership they had zero clue what they were doing so they could be w/out a job come June

Many here seem to downplay that waiting until the last minute for the optimal deal could easily find yourself holding the bag. That's the strategy we had been using for many years up to this deadline.

 

[Chris Craig]

Well, I think it's fair to assume he knew there was still 6 days left before the trade deadline, right? So what reason do you suspect he didn't want until the end? I can think of a few reasons:

1. He was worried the LAC deal wouldn't be on the table in 5 days and he would get stuck with an even worse deal (yes, there could've been worse deals)
2. He felt the trade allowed him better chips in future deals in the remaining 6 days that the league wanted more than Norm/RoCo
3. He and his staff wanted to act panicked to show ownership they had zero clue what they were doing so they could be w/out a job come June

Many here seem to downplay that waiting until the last minute for the optimal deal could easily find yourself holding the bag. That's the strategy we had been using for many years up to this deadline.

Didn't we hear, he had better deals, but Bert Kolde and Jody forced him to make this trade to hurry and get under the tax?

 

[Chris Craig]

Blazers 4-0 since fielding players from the trades we’ve made. Haven’t watched the games, but on the box score this is the most noticeable to me.

In the 4 games the Blazers have committed 51 turnovers for an average of 12.75 per game which is a big difference compared to the 10 per quarter we seemed to be averaging.

It’s amazing what a difference it makes.

Did we actually come out of these trades better? Is Ant replacing CJ like CJ getting playing time after we lost LMA and Wes?

Freeing up cap space is sounding better and better if it turns out that the chemistry with this group is significantly better; even if they fizzle out a bit.

Some of you may remember, I’m always anti-tank. I’d like to see us feel like we can do something even as an 8th seed.

Were people (such as myself) who didn’t feel good about the current situation getting ahead of themselves?

Might be interesting to see how we handle the rest of the season looking at how we’ve played better in this short stretch.

Go figure the way to finally get the Blazers to stop with the Stotts Iso ball was trade the black hole that was CJ, and to move Powell and Covington for players actually willing to play defense and up tempo team basketball.

Did we come out better? In the short term yes. We are 4-0 since the trades. We are seeing a totally different team. This new team has fight, confidence, play as a team, and leave it all on the floor. There is a different attitude.

Are we 4-0 since the trade solely because of that? Maybe part of it is teams are having a hard time coming up with a game plan for this new Blazers team? Maybe the rest of the league will adjust.

We have cap space, but not as much as people are saying. The Blazers arent going to let Simons, Hart, and Nurk walk away. Let's see how much we end up with in the summer and who we sign. Then we can better tell on if we won these trades.

Ant is replacing CJ.

I'm all for winning. I love an underdog and the Blazers will to fight seems to be back. They look to make the play in and perhaps playoffs and I will be rooting them on. The 8th seed should be the goal.

We were all getting ahead of ourselves. Some of us still are. I don't know that anyone was really expecting such a big change so quickly. There were rumors, but based on the last 9 years many were resigned to more of the same happening.

All of a sudden CJ, Powell, and Roco were gone as were Nance, Zeller, and Snell. We were told a quick rebuild, but it looked like the sky was falling, it felt like a fire sale. It was the end of an era and it was being handled by an interim GM who fans are still not sure about.

The smoke is still clearing. We are taking inventory. 4-0 since the trades is exciting, but it's a small sample size. We what 23 games left. Let's see how this season ends. Let's see who we get in FA. Let's let the bigger picture continue to form. Let's enjoy it.

 

[Tince]

Didn't we hear, he had better deals, but Bert Kolde and Jody forced him to make this trade to hurry and get under the tax?

I've heard that. I haven't read anything credible regarding a trade that was truly on the table though, so it's hard to say what is real and what isn't.

People like Jaynes implied RoCo alone could've got you a 1st. If that were true, the Clippers are CRAZY to not flip him, which is why I don't believe that report at all.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Well, I think it's fair to assume he knew there was still 6 days left before the trade deadline, right? So what reason do you suspect he didn't want until the end? I can think of a few reasons:

1. He was worried the LAC deal wouldn't be on the table in 5 days and he would get stuck with an even worse deal (yes, there could've been worse deals)
2. He felt the trade allowed him better chips in future deals in the remaining 6 days that the league wanted more than Norm/RoCo
3. He and his staff wanted to act panicked to show ownership they had zero clue what they were doing so they could be w/out a job come June

Many here seem to downplay that waiting until the last minute for the optimal deal could easily find yourself holding the bag. That's the strategy we had been using for many years up to this deadline.

How about:
4. He turned down better talent/draft picks in favor of the deal that offered the most payroll reduction?

Can we at least agree that is a very subjective, if not questionable definition of "best deal"? As Wizenheimer pointed out, the money involved wasn't quite the difference between keeping the lights on and going bankrupt...and he had 6 more days to shed that money. As for why they didn't turn around and flip Powell/RoCo to another team - you already know my answer.

 

[Tince]

How about:
4. He turned down better talent/draft picks in favor of the deal that offered the most payroll reduction?

Can we at least agree that is a very subjective, if not questionable definition of "best deal"? As Wizenheimer pointed out, the money involved wasn't quite the difference between keeping the lights on and going bankrupt...and he had 6 more days to shed that money. As for why they didn't turn around and flip Powell/RoCo to another team - you already know my answer.

I 100% agree it's subjective, which is why I pop up when people say that we had better offers, that waiting 5 days would've been the better move, etc.

If Cronin was told to save money by ownership, then it shouldn't be on him that he did just that, regardless of the ownerships financial situation; that's on Jody. Right?

 

[blazerkor]

I 100% agree it's subjective, which is why I pop up when people say that we had better offers, that waiting 5 days would've been the better move, etc.

If Cronin was told to save money by ownership, then it shouldn't be on him that he did just that, regardless of the ownerships financial situation; that's on Jody. Right?

It's on him in the way he went about doing it, unless of course the mandate from the Vulcans was to make sure we were under the tax nine days before the trade deadline. The idea that making an unfavorable trade this far ahead of the deadline being the smartest move or could even be known to be the smartest move is absurd. Everyone knows teams don't put their best offers on the table this early. If you disagree with that then you haven't been paying attention to deadlines for decades. So if this was the move a week later, it would be easier to see it as possibly the best move we could have made but to trade two guys who have far greater value around the league for three guys who don't and only get a future second rounder with them is a bad deal 9 days before the deadline.

 

[Orion Bailey]

When we smoke gsw tomorrow, what will yall say then?

 

[Tince]

It's on him in the way he went about doing it, unless of course the mandate from the Vulcans was to make sure we were under the tax nine days before the trade deadline. The idea that making an unfavorable trade this far ahead of the deadline being the smartest move or could even be known to be the smartest move is absurd. Everyone knows teams don't put their best offers on the table this early. If you disagree with that then you haven't been paying attention to deadlines for decades. So if this was the move a week later, it would be easier to see it as possibly the best move we could have made but to trade two guys who have far greater value around the league for three guys who don't and only get a future second rounder with them is a bad deal 9 days before the deadline.

Again, this goes back to my main point:

1. Nobody seems to know what the exact directives were to Cronin
2. Nobody seems to know what trade offers were on the table or would've been on the table days later
3. Few people seem to consider that waiting until the last hours of the deadline could have put Portland in a position to have even less leverage and therefore get an even worse deal.

If RoCo and Norm were in high demand throughout the league, then I would be more open to buy the theory that waiting until the last second would likely maximize return. Sadly, when the opposite is true, the closer Portland got to the deadline, they would have less leverage. I should be surprised that fans of a team over-value their own assests, but I guess I am.

 

[Strenuus]

When we smoke gsw tomorrow, what will yall say then?

How will it be possible to get a #1 pick and be swept in the 1st round?

 

[blazerkor]

Again, this goes back to my main point:

1. Nobody seems to know what the exact directives were to Cronin
2. Nobody seems to know what trade offers were on the table or would've been on the table days later
3. Few people seem to consider that waiting until the last hours of the deadline could have put Portland in a position to have even less leverage and therefore get an even worse deal.

If RoCo and Norm were in high demand throughout the league, then I would be more open to buy the theory that waiting until the last second would likely maximize return. Sadly, when the opposite is true, the closer Portland got to the deadline, they would have less leverage. I should be surprised that fans of a team over-value their own assests, but I guess I am.

The opposite is true as far as national media was concerned at the time. RoCo was mentioned dozens of times as one of the most sought after players in the league with seven or more teams interested in him and the Clippers weren't one of those teams that were listed. Of course we don't ever know for sure that a deal is good or bad, it's especially hard with this one because of Norm's injury and obviously we never know what other teams were offering. We do know that the deal was made very early and that to many of us and the media the Clippers absolutely fleeced us.

 

[Orion Bailey]

How will it be possible to get a #1 pick and be swept in the 1st round?

Thats the shit that keeps me awake at night banging my head against the wall! Lol.

 

[Tince]

The opposite is true as far as national media was concerned at the time. RoCo was mentioned dozens of times as one of the most sought after players in the league with seven or more teams interested in him and the Clippers weren't one of those teams that were listed. Of course we don't ever know for sure that a deal is good or bad, it's especially hard with this one because of Norm's injury and obviously we never know what other teams were offering. We do know that the deal was made very early and that to many of us and the media the Clippers absolutely fleeced us.

See, this is where I think your logic total fails:

1. You are assuming a ton of teams really wanted RoCo, yet never reached out to Portland? Why would all these teams that really want RoCo not reach out, when it was obviously he was available. Waiting until they last second on their part would be incredibly dumb and not on par with how teams communicate (they communicate year round).
2. You are assuming Portland either failed to reach out to other teams and/or after they spoke with LAC, they didn't go around giving them a last & final offer.
3. You are assuming RoCo's value was very high, yet a team with a TON of SF/PF's were unable to flip him for an assest that fits their roster better. If his value was that high, I would assume the LAC really missed the mark too.

All 3 of those things being true seems beyond unlikely, to me.

 

[blazerkor]

See, this is where I think your logic total fails:

1. You are assuming a ton of teams really wanted RoCo, yet never reached out to Portland? Why would all these teams that really want RoCo not reach out, when it was obviously he was available. Waiting until they last second on their part would be incredibly dumb and not on par with how teams communicate (they communicate year round).
2. You are assuming Portland either failed to reach out to other teams and/or after they spoke with LAC, they didn't go around giving them a last & final offer.
3. You are assuming RoCo's value was very high, yet a team with a TON of SF/PF's were unable to flip him for an assest that fits their roster better. If his value was that high, I would assume the LAC really missed the mark too.

All 3 of those things being true seems beyond unlikely, to me.

All 3 of those things would be easier for me to see as being untrue if we hadn't made the trade so damn early.

 

[Tince]

All 3 of those things would be easier for me to see as being untrue if we hadn't made the trade so damn early.

If it makes you feel better, from what I know, RoCo was in trade talks prior to Dame being done for the year. He certainly was in trade talks for all of January. If all 29 teams didn't talk to Portland about RoCo (or vice versa) to see if there was any interest, I would be shocked. Same would be true after the Clippers got him and didn't trade him either. He's a bad fit in LA and could very well be gone come this summer.

 

[oldmangrouch]

I 100% agree it's subjective, which is why I pop up when people say that we had better offers, that waiting 5 days would've been the better move, etc.

If Cronin was told to save money by ownership, then it shouldn't be on him that he did just that, regardless of the ownerships financial situation; that's on Jody. Right?

Oh, I agree the Seattle Mafia was equally at fault here.

Now, let me put you on the spot for a moment. If you had to choose between the Clips' offer and an offer for for better value, but less or no payroll relief, which would you prefer?

 

[Tince]

Oh, I agree the Seattle Mafia was equally at fault here.

Now, let me put you on the spot for a moment. If you had to choose between the Clips' offer and an offer for for better value, but less or no payroll relief, which would you prefer?

Oh man, that's a great question (I want to know your answer too!).

This is difficult because there are so many qualifiers and variables involved here to pick A or B. I do think getting under the tax was a MUST given that we're assuming most ownership is unwilling to operate in repeater mode for a non-contending team and how much that handcuffs teams in terms of the CBA. If there was an offer that didnt' save as much money, but still got us under the cap while say giving us a 1st round pick, that is what I would have preferred. I was very underwhelmed by the LAC trade from a standpoint of how we're going to build around Dame.

It appears Cronin is attempting to thread a needle come draft night/summer with unbalanced trades using our cap space. The odds of nailing this strategy given our assests and the players who appear to be available, is certainly below 50%. The odds of us running Norm/RoCo/CJ back and being a contender in the next 4 years was near zero. Unlike some, I'm not championship or bust. I like fielding a competitive team, so I wouldn't have freaked out if we ran it back, but I would've resigned that there was no hope of a championship.

I think I know you would have preferred better value. And I think we would both prefer Balmer was our owner, not Jody.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Oh man, that's a great question (I want to know your answer too!).

This is difficult because there are so many qualifiers and variables involved here to pick A or B. I do think getting under the tax was a MUST given that we're assuming most ownership is unwilling to operate in repeater mode for a non-contending team and how much that handcuffs teams in terms of the CBA. If there was an offer that didnt' save as much money, but still got us under the cap while say giving us a 1st round pick, that is what I would have preferred. I was very underwhelmed by the LAC trade from a standpoint of how we're going to build around Dame.

It appears Cronin is attempting to thread a needle come draft night/summer with unbalanced trades using our cap space. The odds of nailing this strategy given our assests and the players who appear to be available, is certainly below 50%. The odds of us running Norm/RoCo/CJ back and being a contender in the next 4 years was near zero. Unlike some, I'm not championship or bust. I like fielding a competitive team, so I wouldn't have freaked out if we ran it back, but I would've resigned that there was no hope of a championship.

I think I know you would have preferred better value. And I think we would both prefer Balmer was our owner, not Jody.

I agree, it is a complicated question.

Let me start by saying I don't believe cap space is of equal value to all teams - and Portland would be near the bottom of that list. My priority in a rebuild situation would be picks and young players with some real upside. I am in the camp that likes what OKC has done. In the hands of a good GM that stockpile of draft picks can be used either to directly acquire the players you want, or trade for said players. In our current circumstances, that would require a GM who is willing to stand up to an owner who is wrong and has the ability to sell said owner on a more sensible vision. Olshey dug this team into a major hole and I don't see any indication that Cronin has the vision or force of personality to dig us out.

To go back to something you said earlier about RoCo, I don't doubt the Blazers talked to quite a few teams. I suspect, however, that some of them did put reasonable offers on the table only to have the Blazers reject them because they were too locked in on the money issues. I may be wrong, but if I were placing a bet my money would be on Cronin having tunnel vision.

None of which absolves Jody and company from their role in this mess.

 

[Tince]

I agree, it is a complicated question.

Let me start by saying I don't believe cap space is of equal value to all teams - and Portland would be near the bottom of that list. My priority in a rebuild situation would be picks and young players with some real upside. I am in the camp that likes what OKC has done. In the hands of a good GM that stockpile of draft picks can be used either to directly acquire the players you want, or trade for said players. In our current circumstances, that would require a GM who is willing to stand up to an owner who is wrong and has the ability to sell said owner on a more sensible vision. Olshey dug this team into a major hole and I don't see any indication that Cronin has the vision or force of personality to dig us out.

To go back to something you said earlier about RoCo, I don't doubt the Blazers talked to quite a few teams. I suspect, however, that some of them did put reasonable offers on the table only to have the Blazers reject them because they were too locked in on the money issues. I may be wrong, but if I were placing a bet my money would be on Cronin having tunnel vision.

None of which absolves Jody and company from their role in this mess.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Maybe this discussion could have been resolved better if some reporter had asked Cronin some tougher, more specific questions at his presser?