Start Meyers against the Rockets

[riverman]

I wonder what the average is for years it takes a "center" to finally get it? It never feels like it takes THIS long.

Then again, maybe it's the coaching staff that's hindering Meyers? They are trying to make him a PF when he should be a center.

So maybe my criticism should go somewhere else.... and criticizing is fine, by the way. Because one of the two deserve it.

They always say 4-5 years and this is year 4....and Stren...it's ok to criticize Meyers but swish3 has as much right to an opinion as any of us..

 

[Strenuus]

They always say 4-5 years and this is year 4....and Stren...it's ok to criticize Meyers but swish3 has as much right to an opinion as any of us..

Never said he didn't. It just wasn't logical. That's my opinion of his opinion.

 

[oldfisherman]

 

[riverman]

View attachment 8087

How did you find my cave?

 

[oldfisherman]

Finding your cave was a 3 step process.

Step 1


Step 2


Step 3

 

[Orion Bailey]

My logic says that the perimeter is the opportunity for the swish3s, and because of spacing will not be clogged. There is too much space beyond the arc for it all to be covered. Meyers adds another 3 point threat. Dame and CJ were missing shots. With good perimeter ball movement and kick out passes from drives, Meyers can be open to make the additional 5 swish3s that would make the difference.

The thought is based on what we have seen Meyers do in his highest scoring games, with the capability of 18+ points per game. Putting in his fresh energy and scoring talent in the 2nd half appears to be a better choice than leaving in a tired and declining Mo. In this from the bench scenario, Meyers would freshen the offense, and with the green light to take 10+ FGAs, get the win.

I bought and drank the Meyers Jersey too , but you have to base your wants on reality. The reality is we have plenty of outside shooters. We do not need another, not from three point. It isn't a critical necessity currently. What we are lacking is a big who can hit the 15 footer off the pick and pop. This is our need. Now the question is can Meyers fill this need? He is too slow to keep up on the perimeter defensively or offensively. If he doesnt take the open shot, its often a liability by the time hes pulling the ball down because he cant dribble at all. His thought process from the point he gets the ball when open, to when he REALIZES he gets the ball and is open, is simply too slow for this fast NBA. He gets enough open touches on the outside already in his limited minutes, but passes on the shot because he didn't process the play fast enough to get the shot up quicker than the defender could get to him. Plus, he WILL NOT SHOOT when a defender is on him... even if he is a guard. Its frustrating. He has a foot length and he wont take the shot.

Listen man. I want Meyers to succeed as much as you do, but he has had the opportunities and has proven to be an erratic player at best who doesn't play to his core strengths. He doesn't use his body to bang in side. The guy should average a double double in this weak center league. Now I have seen small signs of him starting to get tougher,. but the clocks ticking baby and this team is passing him by. If he wants to make the roster next year he will need to really turn the engines on this last part of the season and impress everyone. The minutes are there. Its on him.

 

[BlayZa]

ultimately, regardless of which side you see things from, the proof of needs vs. wants has been in how the minutes have played out this season. With guys like Harkless and Davis playing hard and effectively, there isn't really a lot of chances for Meyers to bang/space/D/enforce as he basically all-in'd on being a 7'1" SG. Now, when Stotts puts him in those situations where we need him to play like a 7'1" athletic 24yr old, he isn't built in that skillset anymore and flounders. I think it's fairly obvious that Stotts has lowered his minutes because he isn't what he needs him to be, we have a lot of shooting from the outside and lateral quickness from Meyers isn't there at all. In a way, hitting a decent amount of 3's in previous years has proved to be some fools gold for Meyers and lured him away from becoming that athletic powerhouse he might have been, he's played himself out of a role by the way he wants to play not matching the way the team needs him to play.

shrug.

 

[swish3]

What I see is the potential for Meyers to move and make shooting decisions of the quality that his rifle passing shows he is capable. With coached improvements in his movements, and with the mandate to take the shots when he has at least 3 foot spacing, he can impress us. Perhaps it is because he has not been given the mandate to shoot, instead of having realized he has the shot, that is holding him back. Let's give him the green light and judge the outcome. I predict that he will excel.

Yes, Meyers can be encouraged to claim his space and use his strength against other bigs further improving his defense. But remember that he has been effective against Cousins, Gasol, Howard, and others. In my view, he is not slow or ineffective on defense, and is improving. This knock is often said, but I do not see players getting around him in recent games. What I see is that he sometimes has his hands in the face of opponents rather than up high to force them to change trajectories. That is a mistake that he is correcting.

The Blazers need to maximize the talents of Meyers as well as all of the Blazers. His play in the 2nd quarter justified being back in for the 3rd and 4th quarter. There are compelling reasons to allow him to prove his merits.

 

[Strenuus]

What I see is the potential for Meyers to move and make shooting decisions of the quality that his rifle passing shows he is capable. With coached improvements in his movements, and with the mandate to take the shots when he has at least 3 foot spacing, he can impress us. Perhaps it is because he has not been given the mandate to shoot, instead of having realized he has the shot, that is holding him back. Let's give him the green light and judge the outcome. I predict that he will excel.

Yes, Meyers can be encouraged to claim his space and use his strength against other bigs further improving his defense. But remember that he has been effective against Cousins, Gasol, Howard, and others. In my view, he is not slow or ineffective on defense, and is improving. This knock is often said, but I do not see players getting around him in recent games. What I see is that he sometimes has his hands in the face of opponents rather than up high to force them to change trajectories. That is a mistake that he is correcting.

The Blazers need to maximize the talents of Meyers as well as all of the Blazers. His play in the 2nd quarter justified being back in for the 3rd and 4th quarter. There are compelling reasons to allow him to prove his merits.

Coaches have yelled at him to take those very shots, and he still hesitates. Players have yelled at him to take those shots, and he still hesitates. Fans groan when he doesn't take the shot. There is URGINGS for him to shoot... it's on him to actually shoot it.

 

[oldfisherman]

Some Blazer fans complain that Leonard is playing too much.
Other Blazer fans complain that Leonard should play more.

Leonard’s entire career has been a roller coast ride. At times he has been enjoyable to watch, and at other times it was painful.
The emotional roller coaster ride many fans are taking us on is always painful to read. Not sure how our players can tolerate the painful extremes our fans put them through?

This season was never about winning a championship. It was about developing the young players. It was about developing team chemistry. It was about building a culture where all of the players pull together in one direction. With those goals in mind, this season is already a huge success.

Yes, some of our players have developed faster than others. Some of our players will not be here next season, and the process of rebuilding chemistry and a winning culture will start over. But it will start at a higher level than it started from this season. This roster is trending up, and is already good enough to scare the best teams.

At some point, we need to trust the moves both Stott’s and Olshey are making, and that includes how they use Leonard. They appear to have things well in hand. Some of what we are seeing with players roles, including Leonard’s, may have more to do with collecting information to help them make decisions that will affect next season and beyond.

No matter how many more games the Blazers win, they have already had a successful season. And Leonard has made some improvements to his game.

Why don’t you guys knock off with the negative waves, have a little faith baby, have a little faith.

 

[swish3]

Oldfisherman is right! This forum would be more useful if the destructive comments would quiet down. There is plenty of constructive content to discuss in the pathway to improvement. With Neal and Terry, the Blazers are on the way to building a winning, and maybe even in the next few seasons, a championship culture. It is wise to recognize that "High expectations are the key to everything." Since all we are on this forum are Blazer fans, every player is more likely to be optimally improved by reading words of encouragement than negatives.

Those who feel the need to vent might direct those words to the facebook and twitter pages where they appear to be customary.

 

[Hobbesarable]

Those who feel the need to vent might direct those words to the facebook and twitter pages where they appear to be customary.

This is an internet forum where people come to have conversations about the players on their team. Venting will occur here regardless of what you or anybody else wants. You and Strenuus are extreme polar opposites when it comes to Meyers Leonard. Try designing a logical argument and prove your point rather than pointing people towards other forms of technology.

 

[BBert]

Meyers has talent. He can shoot and pass, run and jump, bang and rebound. I think Meyers would excel in a more structured offense in which he had a more structured role.

IMO his limitation and his mistakes derive from the Stotts offense, which is more free flowing and relies on players to take almost instinctive action on the court. He is often so focused on running the set and passing the ball that he fails to take advantage when the defense breaks down, which is what the play is designed to have happen.

Meyers sometimes overthinks and under reacts. Other times when he zones in and just plays hard and just reacts instead of thinking about his next move, or when a play is specifically designed for him, he can be quite good.

I don't think the Blazers should give up on him. For one thing, Meyers is the closest thing we have to a big banger, for when that's what's needed. On the other hand he may have more value in another system on another team. That's for Olshey to decide.

What's more frustrating to me than Meyers' occasional brain fart, is the fans who are poised like jackals and constantly pounce on his every mistake, no matter how minute, as if no one else is making any.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

I did notice in the Bulls game that Myers tried to post up once and Lillard didn't seem to want to give him the ball (maybe thought he wasn't posted deep enough). But combined with his recent remarks that he hates being a PF, maybe shows he wants to be more of a center/

 

[BBert]

I did notice in the Bulls game that Myers tried to post up once and Lillard didn't seem to want to give him the ball (maybe thought he wasn't posted deep enough). But combined with his recent remarks that he hates being a PF, maybe shows he wants to be more of a center/

I think CJ missed him at least once too. It takes A LOT of work and effort for a player to get and maintain good post position. In my experience it's a lot more tiring wrestling under the basket than it is running around the perimeter or up and down the court. When big guys work for post position, and don't get the ball time after time, they get frustrated and stop doing it. We've all seen it. I'm not suggesting that has happened with Meyers: he'd have to spend more time down low for that to be the case. Our offense isn't really geared for those plays for Meyers, so maybe our guards just weren't looking for it, IDK. Just like Meyers needs to pay attention to when he has an unexpected open shot or a chance for a dunk in the middle of a set, our guards need to pay attention to our front court players when opportunities come up to dump the ball down low.

 

[Strenuus]

Oldfisherman is right! This forum would be more useful if the destructive comments would quiet down. There is plenty of constructive content to discuss in the pathway to improvement. With Neal and Terry, the Blazers are on the way to building a winning, and maybe even in the next few seasons, a championship culture. It is wise to recognize that "High expectations are the key to everything." Since all we are on this forum are Blazer fans, every player is more likely to be optimally improved by reading words of encouragement than negatives.

Those who feel the need to vent might direct those words to the facebook and twitter pages where they appear to be customary.

You've never been to a message board before, have you?

And players hear criticisms regardless of if they come on here or not. Protip: Most players don't come here.

Something you should learn here: Message boards thrive on argumentative discussion. The threads with the most posts are hardly ever just sunshine and rainbows.

Regardless, get used to it. Meyers is polarizing, and you trying to change peoples mind isn't going to work. He has and will hear criticism the rest of his career. He's not getting a capri sun and a cookie after every game anymore. Deal with it.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Meyers has talent. He can shoot and pass, run and jump, bang and rebound.

This is the definition of nitpicking, but do you really think Meyers has better than average jumping ability? I swear I have no idea why people think he is so athletic, especially because he is severely lacking quickness. He's nowhere near as athletic as Plumlee or Davis. I will concede that he can shoot, but I think his passing ability is also overrated because, again, he's nowhere near as good as Plumlee. I'd also say he can only bang and rebound when he's trying his absolute hardest simply because he's big. I think a reason why he sometimes frustrates other bigs is that he is constantly leaning and pushing on them with all his might, whereas players who are actually much stronger can just hold their ground without as much effort. I've talked a lot of shit about him, but I don't actually hate him or anything. I think he can be a decent situational role player off the bench for 15-20 minutes a game, but he should never average more than that on a good team. I don't think he has any potential to be a good starter or a guy who deserves 30 minutes a game.

 

[BBert]

I thought about the jumping thing with Meyers watching Plumlee against the Rockets. Plums goes hard and quick with complete abandon like he's spring loaded. Meyers doesn't. Is it because he can't? Hard to tell.

 

[swish3]

Perhaps my post did not go the intended direction. The idea was to agree that constructive thoughts about the path to greater success might be better found if we do not look so often just throw out names like trash or garbage. There are many mistakes made by Mason, CJ, Dame, Noah, Chief, Mo, and others in both the Rockets and Bulls games that would be said in a mood of negatives. The options that lead to greater success more ideally follow from discussions along the path of high expectations, just as oldfisherman said.

Meyers does appear to excel when he does not use excessive caution (i.e., overthinking mode). That is why giving him the mandate from the locker room and time out strategy coaching might be critical for getting him to play energetically. In this analysis, the scenario where coaches, players, or fans are yelling at him to shoot is exactly the wrong situation. Meyers does seem to be sensitive to the startling action of being yelled at. I can empathize with that. Instead, he should more optimally have the pre-planned mandate to play energetically, taking advantage of each chance to shoot, rebound, zap pass, screen and cut, defend the rim, keep bigs out of position, and excel.

What I can see is that playing Meyers with a boosted assignment, implied by my call to start him, is getting the free flowing energy that he can contribute. In his best games, Meyers has brought winning team play to the Blazers. With the green light to work for and shoot open looks, he can be improving to 18 points per game with high percentage shooting, while effectively holding down high scoring centers. If Meyers is not to start, as is apparently the present reality, the move forward might be to task him with shooting more coming from encouraging his energy and giving him the chance to zone in.

 

[Strenuus]

Perhaps my post did not go the intended direction. The idea was to agree that constructive thoughts about the path to greater success might be better found if we do not look so often just throw out names like trash or garbage. There are many mistakes made by Mason, CJ, Dame, Noah, Chief, Mo, and others in both the Rockets and Bulls games that would be said in a mood of negatives. The options that lead to greater success more ideally follow from discussions along the path of high expectations, just as oldfisherman said.

Meyers does appear to excel when he does not use excessive caution (i.e., overthinking mode). That is why giving him the mandate from the locker room and time out strategy coaching might be critical for getting him to play energetically. In this analysis, the scenario where coaches, players, or fans are yelling at him to shoot is exactly the wrong situation. Meyers does seem to be sensitive to the startling action of being yelled at. I can empathize with that. Instead, he should more optimally have the pre-planned mandate to play energetically, taking advantage of each chance to shoot, rebound, zap pass, screen and cut, defend the rim, keep bigs out of position, and excel.

What I can see is that playing Meyers with a boosted assignment, implied by my call to start him, is getting the free flowing energy that he can contribute. In his best games, Meyers has brought winning team play to the Blazers. With the green light to work for and shoot open looks, he can be improving to 18 points per game with high percentage shooting, while effectively holding down high scoring centers. If Meyers is not to start, as is apparently the present reality, the move forward might be to task him with shooting more coming from encouraging his energy and giving him the chance to zone in.

I think he's on the wrong team, then. Stotts wants to play him as a PF, not a center.

As a center, he is better.

 

[BlayZa]

Perhaps my post did not go the intended direction. The idea was to agree that constructive thoughts about the path to greater success might be better found if we do not look so often just throw out names like trash or garbage. There are many mistakes made by Mason, CJ, Dame, Noah, Chief, Mo, and others in both the Rockets and Bulls games that would be said in a mood of negatives. The options that lead to greater success more ideally follow from discussions along the path of high expectations, just as oldfisherman said.

Meyers does appear to excel when he does not use excessive caution (i.e., overthinking mode). That is why giving him the mandate from the locker room and time out strategy coaching might be critical for getting him to play energetically. In this analysis, the scenario where coaches, players, or fans are yelling at him to shoot is exactly the wrong situation. Meyers does seem to be sensitive to the startling action of being yelled at. I can empathize with that. Instead, he should more optimally have the pre-planned mandate to play energetically, taking advantage of each chance to shoot, rebound, zap pass, screen and cut, defend the rim, keep bigs out of position, and excel.

What I can see is that playing Meyers with a boosted assignment, implied by my call to start him, is getting the free flowing energy that he can contribute. In his best games, Meyers has brought winning team play to the Blazers. With the green light to work for and shoot open looks, he can be improving to 18 points per game with high percentage shooting, while effectively holding down high scoring centers. If Meyers is not to start, as is apparently the present reality, the move forward might be to task him with shooting more coming from encouraging his energy and giving him the chance to zone in.

the move forward is to leave him on the bench until he does what the coach expects of him in order to get more minutes.
i have no idea how and where you think this improvement to 18pts a game is coming from? the times he has scored has been mostly on the perimeter and there seems to be zero interest from Stotts in having that in the game to the degree that you think we need it, i mean we only have dame, cj, crabbe, aminu, and henderson shooting out there, right? might as well have our tallest SG our there as well huh?

If he really doesnt want to be a PF and can't work on his post game and own the paint, then he really has no place on this team. bring on offseason, i cant wait to see what free agency holds for him lol. sad part for him is, if he focused on being an athletic C with a good passing game and tough active D, he would be playing in much more lucrative waters in the off-season. but as he said, he has 'starter level' so maybe some D-League/International team needs a new starting SG?

Just to clarify as to why I can't stand this version of Meyers is that I feel he could have been this athletic C for us, but a couple of seasons of ok outside shooting just skewed him into a new mindset which is in direct opposition to his skill set, size and potential. just a waste.

 

[H.C.]

Meyers does appear to excel when he does not use excessive caution (i.e., overthinking mode). That is why giving him the mandate from the locker room and time out strategy coaching might be critical for getting him to play energetically.

So question for you Swish3.
Lets say right now the coaches aren't doing their job, by giving Nards the green light to shoot/make plays when he's got the opportunity.
Lets say they start doing their job from the next game on, giving Nards the green light to shoot/make plays when he's got the opportunity.
What then do the coaches do if they're mandating Nards does these things... & reminding him to do these things on the bench/in timeouts...
But instead Nards continues to pass up shots his teammates worked to get him or the coaches called plays to get him is position to take.

 

[swish3]

Today you saw the answer, and 17 of the 18 points that I think Meyers should be averaging per game. This was a successful strategy that is on the right pathway!

When he has the green light to take the shots, he can be an offensive force. It is not that he needs to be reminded, just given the assignment to get open and score.

And today I saw a lot of good defense, with boxing out under the rim, keeping the bigs out of their spots, and thwarting shots by reaching up high. When Meyers was in the game the Blazers played very well. I am glad that the coaches are rewarding his success with more minutes and my perception is that they are encouraging him to free flowing shooting. I hope to see him take at least 10 FGA in coming games.

 

[KeepOnRollin]

Today you saw the answer, and 17 of the 18 points that I think Meyers should be averaging per game. This was a successful strategy that is on the right pathway!

When he has the green light to take the shots, he can be an offensive force. It is not that he needs to be reminded, just given the assignment to get open and score.

And today I saw a lot of good defense, with boxing out under the rim, keeping the bigs out of their spots, and thwarting shots by reaching up high. When Meyers was in the game the Blazers played very well. I am glad that the coaches are rewarding his success with more minutes and my perception is that they are encouraging him to free flowing shooting. I hope to see him take at least 10 FGA in coming games.

@swish3 he always has the green light. This is ridiculous that you think a grown man has to be told to shoot to begin with. If he doesn't shoot those open shots he gets pulled and for good reason. I like Meyers. I want to see him do well. Sometimes he gets his act together and other times he struggles. That is a inexperienced player for you. They are inconsistent in nature. I think he will figure it out but by that point it will be a new season.

 

[BBert]

Perhaps my post did not go the intended direction. The idea was to agree that constructive thoughts about the path to greater success might be better found if we do not look so often just throw out names like trash or garbage. There are many mistakes made by Mason, CJ, Dame, Noah, Chief, Mo, and others in both the Rockets and Bulls games that would be said in a mood of negatives. The options that lead to greater success more ideally follow from discussions along the path of high expectations, just as oldfisherman said.

Meyers does appear to excel when he does not use excessive caution (i.e., overthinking mode). That is why giving him the mandate from the locker room and time out strategy coaching might be critical for getting him to play energetically. In this analysis, the scenario where coaches, players, or fans are yelling at him to shoot is exactly the wrong situation. Meyers does seem to be sensitive to the startling action of being yelled at. I can empathize with that. Instead, he should more optimally have the pre-planned mandate to play energetically, taking advantage of each chance to shoot, rebound, zap pass, screen and cut, defend the rim, keep bigs out of position, and excel.

What I can see is that playing Meyers with a boosted assignment, implied by my call to start him, is getting the free flowing energy that he can contribute. In his best games, Meyers has brought winning team play to the Blazers. With the green light to work for and shoot open looks, he can be improving to 18 points per game with high percentage shooting, while effectively holding down high scoring centers. If Meyers is not to start, as is apparently the present reality, the move forward might be to task him with shooting more coming from encouraging his energy and giving him the chance to zone in.

Are you the Dalai Lama?

 

[jlprk]

Meyers does appear to excel when he does not use excessive caution (i.e., overthinking mode)...Meyers does seem to be sensitive to the startling action of being yelled at. I can empathize with that. Instead, he should more optimally have the pre-planned mandate...What I can see is that playing Meyers with a boosted assignment, implied by my call to start him, is getting the free flowing energy that he can contribute...If Meyers is not to start, as is apparently the present reality, the move forward might be to task him with shooting more coming from encouraging his energy and giving him the chance to zone in.

Are you the Dalai Lama?

In the 1970s when college English departments assigned students many pro-drug books to read, an author named Carlos Castaneda wrote several best-selling books. His theme was that we should shut off the conscious mind and stop over-thinking. The Mayan philosophy was similar to that of Buddhism. In the Reagan years, colleges stopped teaching stuff like that. Too bad Leonard was born too late.

 

[oldfisherman]

I have a couple of new angles to contribute to this debate.

We lost to the Rockets because they adjusted and found a way to defend/disrupt Dame’s & CJ’s game, especially their 3 pt shooting. Between them they only made 5 of 17 three pt shots, well below their average. What we needed in that game was another good 3 pt shooter to help spread the floor to take some of the pressure off of Dame & CJ.

The next best 3 pt shooter on the team is Leonard. Maybe that is why Leonard played twice as many minutes in the two games we just won, than he played in the Rockets game. Forcing the Bulls & Pacers to defend a third 3 pt scoring threat.

Now that the other teams have seen how to defend our dynamic duo, playing Leonard more makes sense against the better wing defending teams.

We keep talking about player development. But what is seldom, if ever mentioned is coach development. Coaches develop too.

Maybe coach Stotts has found an answer to a new problem. There will be times Leonard is the best answer against good wing defending teams.

 

[BBert]

I have a couple of new angles to contribute to this debate.

We lost to the Rockets because they adjusted and found a way to defend/disrupt Dame’s & CJ’s game, specially their 3 pt shooting. Between them they only made 5 of 17 three pt shots, well below their average. What we needed in that game was another good 3 pt shooter to help spread the floor to take some of the pressure off of Dame & CJ.

The next best 3 pt shooter on the team is Leonard. Maybe that is why Leonard played twice as many minutes in the two games we just won, than he played in the Rockets game. Forcing the Bulls & Pacers to defend a third 3 pt scoring threat.

Now that the other teams have seen how to defend our dynamic duo, playing Leonard more makes sense against the better wing defending teams.

We keep talking about player development. But what is seldom, if ever mentioned is coach development. Coaches develop too.

Maybe coach Stotts has found an answer to a new problem. There will be times Leonard is the best answer against good wing defending teams.

Good theory. With the success the Rockets had putting taller quickish players in front of Dame and CJ, I was certain other teams would follow suit. Perhaps Stotts anticipated as much and made the counter move ahead of the game, so to speak.

 

[swish3]

Some seem to think that all NBA players will take nearly all shot opportunities, but that is not true. There is a balance being made between shooting and ball movement to enhance the quality of the shot. Effective team offense improves when this balance is optimized. Many big players seem to limit their FGA per game.

It appears that Meyers is limiting his number of FGA to 8, as he did in the Pacers game, and as I remember him saying once in an interview last year. Meyers is a humble team-oriented player who has consistently said that he is focused on improving and is working on team chemistry through increasing trust. He follows instructions and works hard. In my view, he is making significant progress.

Instead of just assuming that he will take more shots, Blazer coaches should increase his assigned number to 10 (or more when he is hot) FGA. This green light for more shooting can open his chances for 6 swish3s per game, and improve the free flow of the offense. Adding the lob dunk assisted by CJ (or Dame or others) adds exciting punctuation. Meyers can contribute more than 20 points per game. The Blazers are fun to watch when he is adding 1 point per minute! It is important to team chemistry to reward the humble work ethic. Surely his performance against the Pacers should bring him more FGA and increased minutes.

 

[Natebishop3]

This green light for more shooting can open his chances for 6 swish3s per game, and improve the free flow of the offense.