Stephon Admits to Helping Get Van Horn Traded?

[Keelan]

In this new book, The Jump, on amazon.com... Marbury?s cousin and Sebastian?s brother, Danny Turner, a Lincoln High assistant coach, said Stephon admitted to him in two different phone calls that he had pushed Isiah to make the Van Horn trade. ?Stephon told me that,? Turner said. ?He said, ?Yo, I got Van Horn.??
Telfair?s father, Otis: ?And that was the worst thing the Knicks did. Everybody knows Stephon was involved in that. I told you all, when Stephon came to the Knicks. Didn?t I say Van Horn was on his way out?"

[red]* Shameless spam link removed. -Mel[/red]

 

[Tribute to H2O]

Well this is nothing new. Everyone knew Marbury had issues with Van Horn and that Van Horn would probably leave. It's too bad Marbury couldnt see past his dislike of Van Horn and just play basketball. We wouldnt have the mess we have right now. But what can you do? It's too late to do anything about it now. Marbury sure is paying for his unprofessionalism right now since once again he's losing. We could have had Houston ready right now and a good team but we all have to pay for Marbury's pettiness. I hope he gets traded soon.

 

[Mr. J]

Wow, I am very dissapointed. Don't you go ot the NBA to play basketball? I mean if I didn't like someone on my team but, I was wining with him, isn't that the most important thing. I mean Nazr Mohammed alone is not suitable for Van Horn. Tim Thomas has not been playing so he doesn't even count. It was beautiful watching KVH rain down 3's and even more beautiful watching him and Houston. Didn't we have that 5 game win streak including a big win against the Pacers? That showed what we were capable of. That's exactly why I don't really have that much respect for Marbury. I wish Isiah wasn't on his meat because anyone with a pair of eyes, can see Marbury=Loser, everywhere he goes the team does better and the team he's on does worse. Marbury said that I'll be judged by how many wins we have crap. If clearly we were wining with KVH, why would it matter? KVH was doing his thing when he was in NY! Anyway, this is spilled milk and unless we get a real GM instead of one who's afraid not to listen to our "franchise player" then we are destined for failure. Plain and simple.

 

[Platehpus]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">Well this is nothing new. Everyone knew Marbury had issues with Van Horn and that Van Horn would probably leave. It's too bad Marbury couldnt see past his dislike of Van Horn and just play basketball. We wouldnt have the mess we have right now. But what can you do? It's too late to do anything about it now. Marbury sure is paying for his unprofessionalism right now since once again he's losing. We could have had Houston ready right now and a good team but we all have to pay for Marbury's pettiness. I hope he gets traded soon.</div>
This is irrelevant, but you really need to stop riding Houston. He's a great player who's had a great career, but christ...

I'm pretty sure that by now, everyone knows it's going to be impossible to win a championship untill Marbury's contract is up unless 1) we get him another all-star to play with or 2) we get him out of New York. He's selfish, egotistical, and a great natural athlete. The latter will bolster your stat sheet, and the other two will keep your team from succeeded. Do we have the talent to get to the finals in the east? You bet your ass we do. Will we as long as we have these kinds of things happening? Fat chance.

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Wow, I am very dissapointed. Don't you go ot the NBA to play basketball? I mean if I didn't like someone on my team but, I was wining with him, isn't that the most important thing. I mean Nazr Mohammed alone is not suitable for Van Horn. Tim Thomas has not been playing so he doesn't even count. It was beautiful watching KVH rain down 3's and even more beautiful watching him and Houston. Didn't we have that 5 game win streak including a big win against the Pacers? That showed what we were capable of. That's exactly why I don't really have that much respect for Marbury. I wish Isiah wasn't on his meat because anyone with a pair of eyes, can see Marbury=Loser, everywhere he goes the team does better and the team he's on does worse. Marbury said that I'll be judged by how many wins we have crap. If clearly we were wining with KVH, why would it matter? KVH was doing his thing when he was in NY! Anyway, this is spilled milk and unless we get a real GM instead of one who's afraid not to listen to our "franchise player" then we are destined for failure. Plain and simple.</div>


You make KVH sound heads and tails better than what he was traded for. Fact of the matter is Van Horn is a weak defender that will give you 16 and 7. Nazr alone is giving you 11 and 8 and isnt has big a defencive liability, besides 7 footers are hard to find and worth double their stats if they're decent. Tim Thomas is playing poorly, sure no doubt. But he's still chipping in 10 points and 4 boards.....crappy, but it still ends up dwarfing KVH's stats in conjunction with Nazr's. Regardless, Tim was a risk. He has the talent to do as well as KVH on offence and equally has poorly on defence, PLUS you'd get a decent big man. Tim played almost has good as KVH was last year, but this year has fallen off stat wise and found himself in the dog house abit.
Still...KVH's contract was 2 million more than Tims so that helps the Knicks out some.

Hindsight is always 20/20. At the time I think it was a good move by the Knicks, and at the time nearly every JBB poster that was in the Tim Thomas trade thread felt it was a good move by the Knicks.

http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread...ighlight=Thomas

 

[Henacy]

Tribute H20 is absolutely correct, everybody knew Steph & KVH would not co-exist on the same team, well before the deal was made to bring Steph home from PHX. I mean Van Horn went on record in the Newspaper saying that Marbury was the most selfish point guard he had ever played with in his career, when Steph got dealt from NJ to PHX. Rick Majearus, Van Horn's college coach said on Mike & the Mad dog 2 or 3 years ago that the downfall of Van Horn's NBA career was when the Nets brung Marbury in to play alongside him. So I mean I dont know how anyone ever expected them to last.

Zeke always justifies the Tim Thomas/Van Horn deal by saying it open up the Knicks acquiring Narz, while that is very well true, we all know the deal was more or less to keep the franchise player happy. Anyway, my question is what is the underline motives of the Telfair family for bring this out now. I think Marbury has had a poor relationship with that part of his family over the past couple of years, so that could have something to do with this story being apart of this book.

And 02Civic, your right alot of people did think this was a quality move. But I didnt like it from the start because the move wasnt made for the right reasons. Tim Thomas isnt as good playing without the ball as Van Horn. And in normal cases when you have a pg that dominates the ball like Steph you need guys who can move without the ball, shoot the spot up jumper well, two things that Van Horn does much better then TT. But niether Steph nor Zeke liked Van Horn. But honestly the deal is a wash this year because of offcourt problems & injury Tim Thomas really stinks. And Van Horn has had a major injury & since coming back, he stinks too this year.

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">
And 02Civic, your right alot of people did think this was a quality move. But I didnt like it from the start because the move wasnt made for the right reasons. Tim Thomas isnt as good playing without the ball as Van Horn. And in normal cases when you have a pg that dominates the ball like Steph you need guys who can move without the ball, shoot the spot up jumper well, two things that Van Horn does much better then TT. But niether Steph nor Zeke liked Van Horn. But honestly the deal is a wash this year because of offcourt problems & injury Tim Thomas really stinks. And Van Horn has had a major injury & since coming back, he stinks too this year.</div>


My point exactly. So no one should be complaining about trading away KVH because of all his problems(being injured, being expensive, and being crappy)
End of the day...would you trade Nazr for KVH straight up? Everyone says no...so Isiah made a good trade. Whether it was because of Marbury or not...it was a good trade. If not for that trade you'd have Doleac starting at center and be even worse off.
Nazr&TT < KVH&Doleac

mrj18? dont you agree?

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">My point exactly. So no one should be complaining about trading away KVH because of all his problems(being injured, being expensive, and being crappy)
End of the day...would you trade Nazr for KVH straight up? Everyone says no...so Isiah made a good trade. Whether it was because of Marbury or not...it was a good trade. If not for that trade you'd have Doleac starting at center and be even worse off.
Nazr&TT < KVH&Doleac

mrj18? dont you agree?</div>
KVH was playing very well in NY. He also had this little stretch in which he had I think 9 consecutive 20+ performances. Crappy, being injuried and expensive? I don't think so. He was having a career year in NY. He was expensive but the fact that we traded him for TT gives us an expensive with much less skills. Who would you rather take? Nazr was a third string center in struggling Atlanta I am very sure there wase another way to get him without giving up one of our most consistent players. No one predicted TT would suck at this level and maybe it looked better at first but, the fact of the matter is we traded a blossoming and consistent KVH, a much improved Doleac, for a scrub and a decent center. Overall we lost, more rebounding, assists, points, a floor spreader and even more important...chemistry. It was pitiful watching these Knicks that barely knew each other. It was a bad trade for us. We could have gotten Mohammed a different way, and even if we couldn't Mutombo could have done a good job. Baker was alright too and if worse came to worse, Kurt could have played center for us.

 

[Tribute to H2O]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Platehpus:</div><div class="quote_post">This is irrelevant, but you really need to stop riding Houston. He's a great player who's had a great career, but christ...</div>

Do me a favor and watch how you talk to me from now on. That is relevant. Houston is my favorite player and everything I say regarding him is correct. If you dont like the fact that I like to talk about him keep it to yourself. Thank you in advance.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">My point exactly. So no one should be complaining about trading away KVH because of all his problems(being injured, being expensive, and being crappy)
End of the day...would you trade Nazr for KVH straight up? Everyone says no...so Isiah made a good trade. Whether it was because of Marbury or not...it was a good trade. If not for that trade you'd have Doleac starting at center and be even worse off.
Nazr&TT < KVH&Doleac

mrj18? dont you agree?</div>

First off Van Horn before he got injured was averaging a double double. I've never heard of anyone complain about Van Horn's contract. It's pretty reasonable in a league full of players with unreasonable contracts. And he was shooting at a very high percentage from behind the arc as well. Something like 45% which was one of highest percentages at the time. So no I wouldnt call Van Horn crappy.

I wasnt on this forum when the Van Horn trade went down but as soon as I found out about it I was sick to my stomach. Whoever thought it was even a decent trade obviously didnt know what they were talking about, too obsessed with athleticism without taking into account anything else or at the very least werent familiar with the Knicks at the time. Personally I'd rather have Van Horn and Doleac right now.

Chemistry is as important if not more important than the actual players(see: 2004 NBA Finals). A team of mediocre players with lots of chemistry will easily beat a team with great players but with little chemistry. There are no numbers to measure chemistry and you cant explain it but you know it when you see it and the Knicks had it before the Van Horn trade. Ever since the Van Horn trade things have gone south for the Knicks and anybody who watched the Knicks for the entire season last year knows it. And oh yeah just for the record: Van Horn,Doleac>TT, Nazr.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">Do me a favor and watch how you talk to me from now on. That is relevant. Houston is my favorite player and everything I say regarding him is correct. If you dont like the fact that I like to talk about him keep it to yourself. Thank you in advance.

</div>
C'mon guys, let's cool it.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">First off Van Horn before he got injured was averaging a double double. I've never heard of anyone complain about Van Horn's contract. It's pretty reasonable in a league full of players with unreasonable contracts. And he was shooting at a very high percentage from behind the arc as well. Something like 45% which was one of highest percentages at the time. So no I wouldnt call Van Horn crappy.

I wasnt on this forum when the Van Horn trade went down but as soon as I found out about it I was sick to my stomach. Whoever thought it was even a decent trade obviously didnt know what they were talking about, too obsessed with athleticism without taking into account anything else or at the very least werent familiar with the Knicks at the time. Personally I'd rather have Van Horn and Doleac right now.

Chemistry is as important if not more important than the actual players(see: 2004 NBA Finals). A team of mediocre players with lots of chemistry will easily beat a team with great players but with little chemistry. There are no numbers to measure chemistry and you cant explain it but you know it when you see it and the Knicks had it before the Van Horn trade. Ever since the Van Horn trade things have gone south for the Knicks and anybody who watched the Knicks for the entire season last year knows it. And oh yeah just for the record: Van Horn,Doleac>TT, Nazr.</div>
Everything I said in my post. I'm telling you, good minds think alike

 

[Tribute to H2O]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Everything I said in my post. I'm telling you, good minds think alike

</div>

Good??? I dont know, I was thinking more along great.

 

[Mr. J]

^That works out too

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">KVH was playing very well in NY. He also had this little stretch in which he had I think 9 consecutive 20+ performances. Crappy, being injuried and expensive? I don't think so. He was having a career year in NY. He was expensive but the fact that we traded him for TT gives us an expensive with much less skills. Who would you rather take? Nazr was a third string center in struggling Atlanta I am very sure there wase another way to get him without giving up one of our most consistent players. No one predicted TT would suck at this level and maybe it looked better at first but, the fact of the matter is we traded a blossoming and consistent KVH, a much improved Doleac, for a scrub and a decent center. Overall we lost, more rebounding, assists, points, a floor spreader and even more important...chemistry. It was pitiful watching these Knicks that barely knew each other. It was a bad trade for us. We could have gotten Mohammed a different way, and even if we couldn't Mutombo could have done a good job. Baker was alright too and if worse came to worse, Kurt could have played center for us.</div>

1)There was no way to know that TT would struggle so much.
2)"Crappy, being injuried and expensive? I dont think so."
He's not very good this year, he's been injured alot, and he's stupid expensive.
3)Nazr had potential...he was young and big and had skills. Doleac was not anything. It was an improvement.
4) KVH was not having a career year. It was actually very middle of the road for him in nearly every catagory. He's gone downhill since, much like TT...so who's to say its a bad trade.

Maybe you could of gotten Nazr a different way, but hindsight is always 20/20. At the time, it was a good trade that didnt work out, but somehow did. It didnt work out in that its a disapointment that the main peice to the trade(TT) went downhill. But it did work out because the throw in turned into a legit center.
Its very easy to say a trade is bad after you've seen the outcome.

 

[Tribute to H2O]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">1)There was no way to know that TT would struggle so much.
2)"Crappy, being injuried and expensive? I dont think so."
He's not very good this year, he's been injured alot, and he's stupid expensive.
3)Nazr had potential...he was young and big and had skills. Doleac was not anything. It was an improvement.
4) KVH was not having a career year. It was actually very middle of the road for him in nearly every catagory. He's gone downhill since, much like TT...so who's to say its a bad trade.

Maybe you could of gotten Nazr a different way, but hindsight is always 20/20. At the time, it was a good trade that didnt work out, but somehow did. It didnt work out in that its a disapointment that the main peice to the trade(TT) went downhill. But it did work out because the throw in turned into a legit center.
Its very easy to say a trade is bad after you've seen the outcome.</div>

Please! Apparently I knew TT was going to struggle because ever since I got here I've been saying what a lousy trade it was and I was right. Actually anyone vaguely familiar with TT should have known it was a bad trade. Before Van Horn came to New York the biggest knock on him was his inconsistency and he was very consistent for us.

As for Doleac, the Heat who were collecting the players neccessary to help Shaq on their championship run made sure they got Doleac which must mean something. Fact of the matter is Doleac usually ended games for us because of how lethal him and Marbury were running the pick and roll. You only say Nazr had potential because he was athletic. He didnt really have skills. All he had was athleticism and even then he never had a serious edge in numbers. But as history has shown us there is still more to the game than being able to run fast and jump high(see:Van Horn trade, Olympics)

Oh yeah Doleac is a better defender too. He worked hard on the defensive end and drew fouls on guards who tried to attack the basket unlike Nazr. I thought I was the only one who thought Doleac plays better defense but apparently there are some sports journalists who would agree with me. Van Horn was having a good year because he was consistently putting up good numbers. His numbers were way up this season, the only reason why his numbers are down is because he got injured. When he gets healthy his numbers will go up and TT's will stay down.

By the way how much further downhill did you expect TT to go? It's not like he was terribly impressive before he came. He was an underachiever. Wasn't he coming off the bench? At the time I never saw one, not one, reasonably serious analyst say that trade was good or even decent. How can you call Nazr a legit center and not call Doleac a legit center when Nazr has no real edge in numbers and Doleac is a better defender? This is mind boggling to me. It's like you have no opinion of your own and you're just going along with what everyone else is saying.

It's easy to say the trade was bad when you see the outcome. But it's also easy to say the trade was a bad idea when it first happens. Noone who really knows basketball thought it was a good idea. The Knicks were playing well. Period. The pick and roll had become our deadliest play, Doleac was getting more involved in the paint, Van Horn was consistent and we were winning. I'm sorry to say the only people who thought it was a good trade at the time were people who simply didnt understand basketball. Just didnt understand the nuances of the game and thought that being athletic was what the sport was about. TT is more athletic but he cant shoot, pass or rebound with any consistency. Nazr was stronger and faster and can jump higher but Doleac knew how to play. This is a text book example of why fundamentals are better than athleticism.

By the way you guys think we can trade one of our expiring contracts for Van Horn? Maybe TT?

 

[Platehpus]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">Do me a favor and watch how you talk to me from now on. That is relevant. Houston is my favorite player and everything I say regarding him is correct. If you dont like the fact that I like to talk about him keep it to yourself. Thank you in advance.

</div>
Blow me

Houston deserves all the praise in the world for what he's done, but he's just not relevant anymore and you have to accept it. Ah well, it's fun to dream.

 

[Tribute to H2O]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Platehpus:</div><div class="quote_post">Blow me

Houston deserves all the praise in the world for what he's done, but he's just not relevant anymore and you have to accept it. Ah well, it's fun to dream.</div>

How mature....I very politely asked you not to speak to me in a certain way and you turned it into something personal for absolutely no reason. While I'm tempted to flame and insult you back it's a little beneath me to do so, so I'll just let it go.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">By the way you guys think we can trade one of our expiring contracts for Van Horn? Maybe TT?</div>
I don't know. I think we can do better for such a big expiring contract. Van Horn played well but, now that he's gone and we do hav a whole different team, I think we should look elsewhere. I wouldn't mind some draft picks and for those expiring contracts.

 

[norespect]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">
First off Van Horn before he got injured was averaging a double double. I've never heard of anyone complain about Van Horn's contract. It's pretty reasonable in a league full of players with unreasonable contracts. And he was shooting at a very high percentage from behind the arc as well. Something like 45% which was one of highest percentages at the time. So no I wouldnt call Van Horn crappy.
</div>

What are you sayin? ($14,487,000) By far the highest-paid Buck, Van Horn chews up a quarter of the team's payroll and has only chipped in 10.1 points and 5.7 rebounds per game, when he's been healthy. Van Horn will be 30 by the start of the 05-06 season.

Yeah, good value. The bucks are only paying KVH around $22,635 for each
point he will score if he keeps up his increadible 10.1 point per game avg up.
He is the 18th highest paid player in the NBA. I can think of alot more than 17 players I would want over this DUD. HE STINKS. It was a good trade for the knicks, even though TT is almost as big a dud.

 

[Tribute to H2O]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know. I think we can do better for such a big expiring contract. Van Horn played well but, now that he's gone and we do hav a whole different team, I think we should look elsewhere. I wouldn't mind some draft picks and for those expiring contracts.</div>

Who do you have in mind for our expiring contracts. I mean we're not going to get anybody like Garnett or Duncan. We might have a while new team but it's not performing nearly as well as we thought so we have to do something about it. Van Horn worked out really well with us last season there's no reason why he cant do the same. Maybe we can have the same line up we should have had. You know with Stephon Marbury at the point, Kieth Van Horn at the small forward and Allan Houston at the shooting guard. The only issue will be how healthy Van Horn is.

We cant get draft picks for our expiring contracts. More often than not a team that takes expiring contracts is rebuilding and no rebuilding team will ever trade away draft picks. We can only get players with our expiring contract, players with long, and hefty contracts. But if we keep trading away expiring contracts for players we'll never get under the cap. We should hang onto at least one of the expiring contracts and see if we can get Van Horn with the other. That way we can come a little bit closer to getting under the cap and improve the team in the short term. Maybe trade Kurt Thomas for a pick or expiring contract or a young player to help us in the future and at the same time clear more play time for Sweetney.

We have pleny of moves available to us, not as many and not as good as last season but good enough to be a better team next season while improving our chances of success in the future.
What are you sayin? ($14,487,000) By far the highest-paid Buck, Van Horn chews up a quarter of the team's payroll and has only chipped in 10.1 points and 5.7 rebounds per game, when he's been healthy. Van Horn will be 30 by the start of the 05-06 season.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting norespect:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah, good value. The bucks are only paying KVH around $22,635 for each
point he will score if he keeps up his increadible 10.1 point per game avg up.
He is the 18th highest paid player in the NBA. I can think of alot more than 17 players I would want over this DUD. HE STINKS. It was a good trade for the knicks, even though TT is almost as big a dud</div>

My friend I could care less about how he's performing for Milwuakee. We use him differently than you guys do. He was doing pretty damn good for us. He was averaging about 18ppg and 7 rpg while playing small forward for us. Maybe it's the system he's in which is why he isnt doing very well. Wasnt he coming off the bench? And dont forget he's injured as well. You cant get mad when a player gets injured, it happens. But thanks for telling me about his contract situation I wasnt aware that he got paid that much. Would you really want TT back? Because if I could, I'd give TT right back to you with cash. By the way he's a shooter as long as he can still run up and down the court and avoid serious injuries he'll be serviceable for many more years to come.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting norespect:</div><div class="quote_post">What are you sayin? ($14,487,000) By far the highest-paid Buck, Van Horn chews up a quarter of the team's payroll and has only chipped in 10.1 points and 5.7 rebounds per game, when he's been healthy. Van Horn will be 30 by the start of the 05-06 season.

Yeah, good value. The bucks are only paying KVH around $22,635 for each
point he will score if he keeps up his increadible 10.1 point per game avg up.
He is the 18th highest paid player in the NBA. I can think of alot more than 17 players I would want over this DUD. HE STINKS. It was a good trade for the knicks, even though TT is almost as big a dud.</div>
No it wasn't. Before he got injuried was the key. He was shooting at a high percentage and I believe 40+% from behind the arc. Milwaukee is not giving him the minutes because they want to rest him more. Anyway, what he did in Milwaukee doesn't matter because it's what he did for us. When Van Horn was with us he was extremely consistent. He was rebounding very well something TT can't do, he was scoring well and efficiently, something TT can't do. He stretched the floor for us well, yet another thing TT can't do. You mentioned KVH's contract but, what about TT's?? He is making some good money to play Horrible! Me as well asother Knick fans would rather overpay KVH than TT, at least he was playing well for us.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">Who do you have in mind for our expiring contracts. I mean we're not going to get anybody like Garnett or Duncan. We might have a while new team but it's not performing nearly as well as we thought so we have to do something about it. Van Horn worked out really well with us last season there's no reason why he cant do the same. Maybe we can have the same line up we should have had. You know with Stephon Marbury at the point, Kieth Van Horn at the small forward and Allan Houston at the shooting guard. The only issue will be how healthy Van Horn is.

We cant get draft picks for our expiring contracts. More often than not a team that takes expiring contracts is rebuilding and no rebuilding team will ever trade away draft picks. We can only get players with our expiring contract, players with long, and hefty contracts. But if we keep trading away expiring contracts for players we'll never get under the cap. We should hang onto at least one of the expiring contracts and see if we can get Van Horn with the other. That way we can come a little bit closer to getting under the cap and improve the team in the short term. Maybe trade Kurt Thomas for a pick or expiring contract or a young player to help us in the future and at the same time clear more play time for Sweetney.

We have pleny of moves available to us, not as many and not as good as last season but good enough to be a better team next season while improving our chances of success in the future.</div>
Yeah, I never thought about that. You're right we probably couldn't snag draft picks...at least not legit ones. I wouldn't mind Van Horn, but you know how teams go crazy for expiring contracts. We can get many players for expiring contracts. Why don't we trade Ariza, Sweetney, 1st rounder expiring contract for, Antoine Walker. Haha, that was a good one but, really I would want someone more estblished or maybe younger. Also, you would have to wonder what it would do to Steph and Marbury. Now that KVH knows for sure Marbury wanted him shipped out, I think it can affect them. I don't know what we should do with our contracts but whatever we do, I think it should be an effective one that will benefit us long term as well.

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">
First off Van Horn before he got injured was averaging a double double. I've never heard of anyone complain about Van Horn's contract. It's pretty reasonable in a league full of players with unreasonable contracts. And he was shooting at a very high percentage from behind the arc as well. Something like 45% which was one of highest percentages at the time. So no I wouldnt call Van Horn crappy. </div>

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story...209/nbaoverpaid

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/overpaidnba.html

http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread...hlight=overpaid

If you've never heard anyone mention how overpaid he is you must have selective hearing.

Great he was shooting a decent %, but does that make up for his other incredible poor qualities. He couldnt gaurd one of the maskots and he's about has court savy has elmer fud. He's overpaid and i think you're overrating him as well.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">
I wasnt on this forum when the Van Horn trade went down but as soon as I found out about it I was sick to my stomach. Whoever thought it was even a decent trade obviously didnt know what they were talking about, too obsessed with athleticism without taking into account anything else or at the very least werent familiar with the Knicks at the time. Personally I'd rather have Van Horn and Doleac right now. </div>

So you're for a trade: Nazr for Van Horn right now?

TT was the same type of player has Van Horn, and was putting up similiar numbers in years past (1 or 2 less rpg) before the trade. And in 17 minutes Nazr was pulling down 5 boards and making 6.5 ppg at nearly 50% shooting with the Hawks. The deal was a solid deal for the Knicks at the time, and even with TT tanking Nazr is worth Van Horn. Sure they got the weaker of the two SF's but they got a very young, very decent 7 footer that now is a major part of your team and future since his contract is very reasonable.

Nazr is better than Van Horn striaght up, AND he's in a position that's hard to come by now and days, AND without him the Knicks would be a joke in the middle. So on top of him you got a player in TT that didnt work out, but just as easily could of performed well enough to make up for most of KVH's strengths.

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">
By the way how much further downhill did you expect TT to go? It's not like he was terribly impressive before he came. He was an underachiever. Wasn't he coming off the bench? At the time I never saw one, not one, reasonably serious analyst say that trade was good or even decent. How can you call Nazr a legit center and not call Doleac a legit center when Nazr has no real edge in numbers and Doleac is a better defender? This is mind boggling to me. It's like you have no opinion of your own and you're just going along with what everyone else is saying. </div>


Van Horn was an underachiever too. And TT had started every game the season he was traded, and all but 12 the season before. His numbers were pretty good (14pts, 5rbs, .443fg% and .362% from behind the arc) too, and alot of people felt that he could be motivated out of his shell by playing in the big apple. After the trade he was averaging nearly 16 points, still only 5 boards a game but he ws shooting .452 from the field and .406 from 3.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">
It's easy to say the trade was bad when you see the outcome. But it's also easy to say the trade was a bad idea when it first happens. Noone who really knows basketball thought it was a good idea. The Knicks were playing well. Period. The pick and roll had become our deadliest play, Doleac was getting more involved in the paint, Van Horn was consistent and we were winning. I'm sorry to say the only people who thought it was a good trade at the time were people who simply didnt understand basketball. Just didnt understand the nuances of the game and thought that being athletic was what the sport was about. TT is more athletic but he cant shoot, pass or rebound with any consistency. Nazr was stronger and faster and can jump higher but Doleac knew how to play. This is a text book example of why fundamentals are better than athleticism. </div>

1) You're saying alot of JBB members dont know what they're talking about since everyone in the thread said it was a good trade, including myself. I think your bitterness towards TT has caused you to not look at the trade objectively.

2) So You're saying Doleac is better than Nazr now too? Yes or No.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">
My friend I could care less about how he's performing for Milwuakee. We use him differently than you guys do. He was doing pretty damn good for us. He was averaging about 18ppg and 7 rpg while playing small forward for us. Maybe it's the system he's in which is why he isnt doing very well. Wasnt he coming off the bench? And dont forget he's injured as well. You cant get mad when a player gets injured, it happens. But thanks for telling me about his contract situation I wasnt aware that he got paid that much. Would you really want TT back? Because if I could, I'd give TT right back to you with cash. By the way he's a shooter as long as he can still run up and down the court and avoid serious injuries he'll be serviceable for many more years to come.</div>

1)Actually he was averaging 16.4 and 7.3 and his % were similiar to TT's.
2)How can you be arguing with me about whether or not a player is overpaid without knowing how much he makes!!!!!

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">
By the way you guys think we can trade one of our expiring contracts for Van Horn? Maybe TT?</div>

1) Before you start in on a topic, taking such a opposing stance vs me try and find out what you're talking about. First you dont know how much money KVH makes but you say he's not overpaid. Now you're suggesting trading TT's expiring contract for KVH's expiring contract

Throw in Nazr and they'd do it.
<u>Are you for it....Nazr and TT for Van Horn?</u>

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Isiah Thomas acquired Tim from Milwaukee in the middle of last season, and it doesn't appear this was one of the key rebuilding moves the Knicks had hoped for. The 6-foot-10-inch forward muscles his way to 3.4 rebounds a game and adds 10.3 points, his worst numbers since the 1998-99 season. He's only 27, but he's a downgrade from his all-overpaid list buddy, Keith Van Horn</div>
You're very article mentioned that, agreeing with me, Tribute, KA, and the rest of the Knick fam.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">]So you're for a trade: Nazr for Van Horn right now?

And what are you talking about athleticism....niether TT, Nazr or KVH have that...so moot. TT was the same type of player has Van Horn, and was putting up similiar numbers in years past (1 or 2 less rpg) before the trade. And in 17 minutes Nazr was pulling down 5 boards and making 6.5 ppg at nearly 50% shooting. The deal was an awesome deal for the Knicks. Sure they got the weaker of the two SF's but they got a very young, very decent 7 footer that now is a major part of your team and future since his contract is very reasonable.</div>
Actually, TT and Nazr are quite athletic. Are you trying to down play the KVH's stellar play in NY? He was rebounding very well for us with about 7.7rpg. Nazr was a 3rd string for the Hawks, there was another way to acquire him without giving up KVH. Even if that were the case, Mohammed
didn't play so well last season. It wasn't untill, the summer he started getting better. We could have just acquired him in the offseason then. Isiah said it himself he didn't want to give up Doleac, he said he was improveing and he really was too. An awsome deal for the Knicks...NO!

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Nazr is better than Van Horn striaght up, AND he's in a position that's hard to come by now and days, AND without him the Knicks would be a joke in the middle. So on top of him you got a player in TT that didnt work out, but just as easily could of performed well enough to make up for most of KVH's strengths.</div>
You're plain wrong right here. Nazr is having a good season putting uo 11 and 8 but, better than what KVH was for us, there is where you're wrong. KVH was getting to the line, he was rebounding well, shooting well and caused opponents big problems with his height and stroke. His defense was also improving in NY too. We got an extremely overpaid BUM in TT who hurts us just about every day, and a good center, for a player who was playing great and meshing perfectly, and a decent center who was meshing well. Oh and by the way, we also lost a 2nd rounder too. I think we get the short end of the trade.

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">You're very article mentioned that, agreeing with me, Tribute, KA, and the rest of the Knick fam. </div>

I admitted he was a step down from the start?!?! At the time it wasnt a MASSIVE downgrade though....not at the time based on what was known then

My point is Nazr was an upgrade over Doleac. I dont care how well you felt Doleac was playing, Nazr had all the tools to do the same and he had more of an upside. Which made the trade at least equal at the time. And knowing what we know now with TT=garbage, Van Horn=injured garbage, Doleac=series backup garbage, Nazr=potential, upside, good numbers, not garbage, the knicks still get the good end of the deal.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">
Actually, TT and Nazr are quite athletic. Are you trying to down play the KVH's stellar play in NY? He was rebounding very well for us with about 7.7rpg. Nazr was a 3rd string for the Hawks, there was another way to acquire him without giving up KVH. Even if that were the case, Mohammed
didn't play so well last season. It wasn't untill, the summer he started getting better. We could have just acquired him in the offseason then. Isiah said it himself he didn't want to give up Doleac, he said he was improveing and he really was too. An awsome deal for the Knicks...NO! </div>

1) He was playing well(7.3rpg), its always risky trading a player that's playing well, but sometimes its necessary. Trade when value is high to get the most. KVH might as easily tanked if he had not of been traded...but we'll never know. there was potential for the trade to pay big dividends. If TT felt pushed by being in NY he could of really improved, beyond the numbers KVH was putting up. And Mohommed did work out just like they had hoped he would.
2)Mohommad was putting up good numbers in his playing time and it was readily excepted that he deserved more minutes.
3)Nazr didnt play well last season for you? How about 9.1 ppg on 56% shooting? How about the 7.7 boards(2.9 offensive) and 1.2 steals in 24.9 minutes?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">
You're plain wrong right here. Nazr is having a good season putting uo 11 and 8 but, better than what KVH was for us, there is where you're wrong. KVH was getting to the line, he was rebounding well, shooting well and caused opponents big problems with his height and stroke. His defense was also improving in NY too. We got an extremely overpaid BUM in TT who hurts us just about every day, and a good center, for a player who was playing great and meshing perfectly, and a decent center who was meshing well. Oh and by the way, we also lost a 2nd rounder too. I think we get the short end of the trade.</div>


TT could spread the defence just as good as KVH could spread the defence!
You guys are talking like he cant shoot! he's inconsistent sure, but so was KVH! You say that he was consistent once he came to the Knicks so why cant the same be true for TT....he could of become consistent. TT has nearly identical career FG and 3point % as KVH!
TT is a BUM....now. He could of gotten out of it like KVH did.....but he didnt. And now KVH is a BUM.....too.
But at the time, it was 2 starters for 1.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">Van Horn was an underachiever too. And TT had started every game the season he was traded, and all but 12 the season before. His numbers were pretty good (14pts, 5rbs, .443fg% and .362% from behind the arc) too, and alot of people felt that he could be motivated out of his shell by playing in the big apple. After the trade he was averaging nearly 16 points, still only 5 boards a game but he ws shooting .452 from the field and .406 from 3.</div>
He wasn't underacheiving in NY. He was playing very well. He averaged so much because he was the 2nd option. Houston was gone, and Nazr was playing poorly. 15.8ppg, 4.8rpg 1.4apg doesn't impress me much. His 3 pointers are overrated. He played 24 games for us but only made 26. That's just about making one 3 a game. Waaay overrated statistic. KVH had not lived up to his expectations but, he played well for us. TT hasn't lived up to his but, he hasn't.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">1) You're saying alot of JBB members dont know what they're talking about since everyone in the thread said it was a good trade, including myself. I think your bitterness towards TT has caused you to not look at the trade objectively.</div>
I'm not Tribute but, I think he might be trying to say they were unaware of the outcome. Even if it proved to be decent, it was very risky.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">1)Actually he was averaging 16.4 and 7.3 and his % were similiar to TT's.</div>
Could you please pull out the stats?

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">He wasn't underacheiving in NY. He was playing very well. He averaged so much because he was the 2nd option. Houston was gone, and Nazr was playing poorly. 15.8ppg, 4.8rpg 1.4apg doesn't impress me much. His 3 pointers are overrated. He played 24 games for us but only made 26. That's just about making one 3 a game. Waaay overrated statistic. KVH had not lived up to his expectations but, he played well for us. TT hasn't lived up to his but, he hasn't.</div>

Right KVH wasnt underachieving in NY, and i believe it was hoped that TT would also get out of his underachieving ways, because he had all the tools to be as good and better than KVH if he just played more consistently.
Maybe your system didnt use him right. Thats the arguement Tribute used to defend why Van Horn blew for the Bucks so i'll try it here. End of the day TT has the same career 3% while shooting 150 more than KVH. Its kind of hard to have overrated statistics based over several years and 1,550 attempts.



<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">
1) You're saying alot of JBB members dont know what they're talking about since everyone in the thread said it was a good trade, including myself. I think your bitterness towards TT has caused you to not look at the trade objectively.</div>

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">
I'm not Tribute but, I think he might be trying to say they were unaware of the outcome. Even if it proved to be decent, it was very risky.</div>

Thats the point...EVERYONE was unaware of the outcome. Time travel is yet to be mastered so every trade is a risk. At the time it was risky...it could of been a HUGE bust, it could of equalled out, or it could of been a HUGE knick advantage. How good would TT be if he did play with heart? If the NY media, orginization and fans, did make him work hard? Very good. And Nazr did work out HUGE so thats great. End of the day now you've got a real center (dont give me no Doleac garbage Tribute). TT didnt work this year but he was good last year, almost has good has KVH. And look how you guys did at the end of the season, in part thanks to these guys.
But TT could of worked. So at the time it looked like a good trade....knowing what we know...i'd still say it was to the Knicks advantage by a bit.



<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">
Could you please pull out the stats?</div>


sure

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/keith_van_horn/index.html


All i can say is that its easy to poo-poo trades after the fact. But i gaurentee if TT had of worked out you guys wouldnt of voiced your dislike of the trade, and you certainly wouldnt let it be known that when the trade was first done you thought it sucked. Whether its officiating or past trades or coaching, you shouldnt harp to much on it and use it has a cruch. Almost every game the Knicks have lost someone's made a comment about the officiating being horrible. And since Herb became coach people have been saying good things one day, and bad things the next. I'll exit this arguement now.


But i want to know one thing.


Would you trade TT and Nazr for KVH?

 

[Beat]

I remeber there was a big debate between who's better Nazi or Doleac

 

[02civic]

^ and what was the verdict on these forums?

 

[Platehpus]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">

How mature....I very politely asked you not to speak to me in a certain way and you turned it into something personal for absolutely no reason. While I'm tempted to flame and insult you back it's a little beneath me to do so, so I'll just let it go.</div>
I'm really sorry, I've been cranky lately and little things that I normally wouldn't care about start to piss me off. Don't want any beef with you, bud.