Politics Stockton’s Basic-Income Experiment Pays Off

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Orion Bailey said:
Having worked in a field that put me in 3-8 customers homes a day for over ten years all throughout the nw, i dont find this accurate. I cant tell you how many times was in a persons’ home who just got a nice tv with thier government check, but did nothing and lived like slobs.
Yes ive been in many nice homes with people who respect thier own property and work hard, etc. but it was not a rare occasion to run into slobs who got things for free. Its was on the reg.
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This is what we call anecdotal evidence. Your conclusion has been proven wrong by an actual study.
 
barfo said:
[This is off-topic in that I'm commenting on the rich rather than the poor/middle class]: It is possible to have more money than you can spend. Unfortunately, the people who tend to find themselves in that situation are people who keep acquiring more money anyway because that's their 'thing', but it is entirely possible to say 'fuck it, I've got more than enough now, I'm getting off the greedwagon'.

barfo
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Oh for sure. Once you can afford all the things you could want without working.

Mt point was simply that no realistic amount of universal government income would encourage a significant number of healthy people to use it as their only source of income.
 
Orion Bailey said:
If i had all my own time, hell yeah. Thad would be 100k between the wife and I. Id be recording bands all day for additional income.
Our vehicles are paid off and all we have is one mortgage payment and utilities.
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Bingo. So you would still be working with $50k income and wouldn't just slide into a ghetto.

So you'd have the freedom to do what you actually love, and I'm sure since you love it you would do better at that than your current job and be healthier and happier as a result.

I'm sure you can see why hundreds of millions of people having this option would be a good thing, yes?
 
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Phatguysrule said:
Bingo. So you would still be working with $50k income and wouldn't just slide into a ghetto.

So you'd have the freedom to do what you actually love, and I'm sure since you love it you would do better at that than your current job and be healthier and happier as a result.

I'm sure you can see why hundreds of millions of people having this option would be a good thing, yes?
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but im working at my own dream in the entertainment industry. How is that aiding to our economic infrastructure?

it just pulled a contributing person from a company in the large structural steel business.

Yes, i see many would want their dream gifted to them. But like me, i dont think they would then work in an industry or field that really benefits our blue collar economy.
I understand that if i had 50k a year for life, im not going to be a productive member of our economy and i believe most will be like me.

how many people love crawling under homes and fixing pipes or running comm lines?
How many people love working on a production belt line?

you really think people would continue these things? Vs, try to become their own boss?

There are some things we still need big busines for and most of it is for transporting goods and providing services. Most people will no longer do those things unless its thier “Dream”.
Im not seeing how that would work.

Of course everyone wants money for free to pursue their dreams.....but life aint easy. And it shouldn't be.
 
A lot of people aren't smart with money...a lot of people are also addicted to things like cigarrettes booze and gambling.....the single mom working two jobs with 4 kids at home is probably stretching every dollar she has to get by.....and as to slobs....the biggest slobs I've ever known about hygiene and housekeeping were pretty wealthy people who grew up with maid service and being a slob was their idea of being radical.....an old business partner was like that...I've also known people who were very poor who are very meticulous about their things and keep them clean....I don't think you can make responsible people suffer because you fear irresponsible people will bet their stimulus check on a sports betting site or buy a TV.....to some that TV is their form of childcare which is also a bad choice. We are providing childcare so our daughter in law can go back to work and not give her check to a daycare center which is a vicious circle for new parents...some young couples just don't have that option
 
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Orion Bailey said:
it really does mean fuckall.
to say what people would do with a residual income is the same they would do with a one time payment, is the issue i see.
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It wasn't a one-time payment, so the rest of your post is irrelevant. It was a monthly income for a year and a half (which was extended to two years due to the coronavirus).
 
Phatguysrule said:
Oh for sure. Once you can afford all the things you could want without working.

Mt point was simply that no realistic amount of universal government income would encourage a significant number of healthy people to use it as their only source of income.
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Understood and agreed.

barfo
 
Minstrel said:
It wasn't a one-time payment, so the rest of your post is irrelevant. It was a monthly income for a year and a half (which was extended to two years due to the coronavirus).
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sorry. I shouldnt have said one time payment. Ut it had an end. It was not for life. So in that regard my point still stands.
 
Orion Bailey said:
sorry. I shouldnt have said one time payment. Ut it had an end. It was not for life. So in that regard my point still stands.
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I don't agree. Nobody's going to jump from "no UBI" to "UBI for life" without at least some evidence that it helps people more than just giving them a little more spending money. The fact that people put a shorter term version towards productive uses, like paying down debt and getting into better employment situations, is good evidence that UBI is a program worth exploring more and testing more.
 
Minstrel said:
I don't agree. Nobody's going to jump from "no UBI" to "UBI for life" without at least some evidence that it helps people more than just giving them a little more spending money. The fact that people put a shorter term version towards productive uses, like paying down debt and getting into better employment situations, is good evidence that UBI is a program worth exploring more and testing more.
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For real. That 1,400 coming my way is gonna be used on credit cards and some loan payments.

It sucks, but in the end it'll allow for more spending money with the money I work for, so it works out.
 
The last 1200 my wife and I received went to fix a broken water pipe under my cabin....bill.....$1173. We got to go crazy shopping with the 27 bucks left over!
I'm sure the plumber didn't qualify for a stimulus check so he just got ours. Good times!
 
Looking ahead, it seems fairly obvious that a UBI program is going to be necessary, and not because the population is going to become lazy. The rise of artificial intelligence is leading to more and more automation. For now, specific AI systems are only phasing out some jobs and are tools to assist humans in other jobs. But as the technology improves, automation is going to claim more and more jobs. And unlike in past epochs, it's not necessarily going to lead to new industries that create as many or more jobs. Automation is going to eliminate vastly more jobs than it's going to create--so what happens then? Most people just starve to death?

For now, UBI is a form of welfare for those who haven't had as much opportunity or are struggling for other reasons, and a way to potentially help propel them to becoming more successful within the economy. Going forward, it'll be a necessary program to keep people afloat when there may not be as many jobs as people.
 
Minstrel said:
Looking ahead, it seems fairly obvious that a UBI program is going to be necessary, and not because the population is going to become lazy. The rise of artificial intelligence is leading to more and more automation. For now, specific AI systems are only phasing out some jobs and are tools to assist humans in other jobs. But as the technology improves, automation is going to claim more and more jobs. And unlike in past epochs, it's not necessarily going to lead to new industries that create as many or more jobs. Automation is going to eliminate vastly more jobs than it's going to create--so what happens then? Most people just starve to death?

For now, UBI is a form of welfare for those who haven't had as much opportunity or are struggling for other reasons, and a way to potentially help propel them to becoming more successful within the economy. Going forward, it'll be a necessary program to keep people afloat when there may not be as many jobs as people.
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This is how I feel about it....we're already seeing office workers dumping the office and working remotely from home now...I think humanity is at a point where greed has to stop and balance has to be maintained....people will probably have credits for staples and basics and luxury items will become super expensive.
 
Minstrel said:
Looking ahead, it seems fairly obvious that a UBI program is going to be necessary, and not because the population is going to become lazy. The rise of artificial intelligence is leading to more and more automation. For now, specific AI systems are only phasing out some jobs and are tools to assist humans in other jobs. But as the technology improves, automation is going to claim more and more jobs. And unlike in past epochs, it's not necessarily going to lead to new industries that create as many or more jobs. Automation is going to eliminate vastly more jobs than it's going to create--so what happens then? Most people just starve to death?

For now, UBI is a form of welfare for those who haven't had as much opportunity or are struggling for other reasons, and a way to potentially help propel them to becoming more successful within the economy. Going forward, it'll be a necessary program to keep people afloat when there may not be as many jobs as people.
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100% agree in regards to automation. As more and more jobs are permanently eliminated from the workforce, where do people turn for work? Not to say it's as simple as give them UBI and let them be lazy. It's more allow them to live. To survive.

I don't agree that UBI will turn everyone lazy. There's plenty of jobs currently that pay a mediocre wage that people could do to half ass it. But a lot of people are motivated by money, so they hunt out higher paying jobs than those. There's a lot of people are motivated by a desire to help others. I don't think they're all just going to drop out of the workforce. There's plenty that have a desire to help others, but a lot of those helping others jobs don't pay anything worthwhile, so they DON'T follow a passion, because of the need for $$

I also thing there's a bigger issue at play in the entire discussion, where we have a society built around a lot of shitty, low paying jobs that are essential to keeping things operating the way it currently does. People applaud and support the rich for coming up with ways to keep themselves rich, while eliminating jobs, because they innovated or whatever, but then disregard the individuals left out in the cold because of that innovation. Boot strap it, I guess? A UBI protects those discarded workers, and it probably also puts fear into a lot of the uber rich who rely on the dirt cheap labor of the country to stay uber rich.
 
Orion Bailey said:
but im working at my own dream in the entertainment industry. How is that aiding to our economic infrastructure?

it just pulled a contributing person from a company in the large structural steel business.

Yes, i see many would want their dream gifted to them. But like me, i dont think they would then work in an industry or field that really benefits our blue collar economy.
I understand that if i had 50k a year for life, im not going to be a productive member of our economy and i believe most will be like me.

how many people love crawling under homes and fixing pipes or running comm lines?
How many people love working on a production belt line?

you really think people would continue these things? Vs, try to become their own boss?

There are some things we still need big busines for and most of it is for transporting goods and providing services. Most people will no longer do those things unless its thier “Dream”.
Im not seeing how that would work.

Of course everyone wants money for free to pursue their dreams.....but life aint easy. And it shouldn't be.
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I've crawled under my house with all the cobwebs and spiders. I've fixed broken pipes. I've run speaker wire, tv coax, and 120V power cables. I really disliked doing all of it but it had to be done and I didn't have money at the time.
 
Minstrel said:
A good article on the results of an experiment a city ran with universal basic income. Well worth reading if you have any interest in UBI, either as a skeptic or an enthusiast.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/03/stocktons-basic-income-experiment-pays-off/618174/
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Fake study by the Fake News rag The Atlantic. Fake results. No actual tracking of where the money went (drugs, booze, xboxes...) lack of actual poverty-stricken participants, lack of political diversity among participants, numerous unsupportable conclusions, ignoring outside real-world factors...
Stockton has a 20% poverty rate BECAUSE of 100+ years of political absurdities like this.
 
MARIS61 said:
Fake study by the Fake News rag The Atlantic. Fake results.
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Damn, you figured it out.

It was, in fact, a Deep State propaganda "study," intended to create comfort with putting everyone on the federal government teat, forever destroying personal independence.
 
MARIS61 said:
Fake study by the Fake News rag The Atlantic. Fake results. No actual tracking of where the money went (drugs, booze, xboxes...) lack of actual poverty-stricken participants, lack of political diversity among participants, numerous unsupportable conclusions, ignoring outside real-world factors...
Stockton has a 20% poverty rate BECAUSE of 100+ years of political absurdities like this.
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Okay boomer.
 
MARIS61 said:
Fake study by the Fake News rag The Atlantic. Fake results. No actual tracking of where the money went (drugs, booze, xboxes...) lack of actual poverty-stricken participants, lack of political diversity among participants, numerous unsupportable conclusions, ignoring outside real-world factors...
Stockton has a 20% poverty rate BECAUSE of 100+ years of political absurdities like this.
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It doesn't matter how they spent it. That's the point. It helped them improve their lives and get full time jobs, without the need for government bureaucracy. As such, this was not a political absurdity. It was very successful.

Every study on UBI has shown positive results when compared to any other kind of welfare. I do support a negative tax credit more though,it would essentially be UBI for most people.
 
MARIS61 said:
No actual tracking of where the money went (drugs, booze, xboxes...
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Nobody cares what you spend your inflated profits from debt pedaling on....even if you take it to Costa Rica on vacation. Judging people you don't know is pretty easy to do....see how that works? Your inflation of the cost of housing has directly caused Oregonian homelessness! Drunks don't buy x boxes...they steal them to trade for booze and drugs, duh. Give it a break.....and you owe me and my wife an apology for the coming to america for free welfare post you made years ago and saying we're the problem with America......diversify that! You should be more careful about your "fake character" here...the govt is reading!
 
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Orion Bailey said:
but im working at my own dream in the entertainment industry. How is that aiding to our economic infrastructure?

it just pulled a contributing person from a company in the large structural steel business.

Yes, i see many would want their dream gifted to them. But like me, i dont think they would then work in an industry or field that really benefits our blue collar economy.
I understand that if i had 50k a year for life, im not going to be a productive member of our economy and i believe most will be like me.

how many people love crawling under homes and fixing pipes or running comm lines?
How many people love working on a production belt line?

you really think people would continue these things? Vs, try to become their own boss?

There are some things we still need big busines for and most of it is for transporting goods and providing services. Most people will no longer do those things unless its thier “Dream”.
Im not seeing how that would work.

Of course everyone wants money for free to pursue their dreams.....but life aint easy. And it shouldn't be.
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You making music is being a productive member of society... Why would you think it's not?
 
Tyrant of Ants said:
And Stockton slaps (Diaz bros!).

2r0vGt.gif
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Well, you've gotta admit that guy can sure take a lot of punishment without going down,
 
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