Politics Supreme Court rules West Virginia transgender athletes can compete on female sports teams

[Hoopguru]

When you say women decide does that include trans women?

Yes..absolutely.

 

[Hoopguru]

With regards to athletic competition, If the women and trans women could come together and establish some guidelines for participation (I believe that's been done already) and have checks and balances to keep out those who are not meeting legit criteria and just fucking around. it can work.
The % of women trans that want to compete probably isn't all that great so it should be manageable.
Men would not have an issue with male trans if they wanted to compete so why should women? Just needs to be done correctly for women's sports.

 

[julius]

This is an interesting question, and it makes me sad that folks assume a trans woman is just a man in women’s clothes. The effects of chemically transitioning are all-encompassing. That there are any trans women who are still built like men is a symptom of a health care system actively trying to keep us from getting the hormones we wanted when we wanted them.

Sorry if my question/comment came off as though I thought a trans woman is just a man in a woman's clothes. I just wondered if that was actually even a thing (in the sense of a clear cut "unfair" physical advantage). Don't know if that was clear or not. I don't think that a trans woman (or young woman/high school or college age) competing in a sports with cis women is just a case where a physically stronger (born) male is just going to by physically dominant as if there is no physical or muscular changes made.

Growing up I had a friend who was not very tall. Maybe 5'3". So he was smaller than your typical male. And if he were to compete against women, he wouldn't have dominated or in all honestly, probably even won, even though he was in great physical shape (he was deceptively strong).

I posit that people think that it's just a case of young boys/men who are bigger and stronger athletes just want to change into women for the sake of being able to kick ass. I think a lot of it is the examples we saw in TV shows and comedies that gave birth to this stereotype. I.e., Jim Carrey's Vera De Milo character from In Living Color (not that that character was trans, but it was a masculine female body builder), or Martin Lawrences Sheneneh (I don't think the Sheneneh character was supposed to be a trans woman, but imho, it was intended to belittle or make fun of trans women), or the professional wrestler Chyna (who had masculine features, and grew up constantly with people assuming she was a male, and fans and other wrestlers used that as a joke at her expense).

Most trans women didn’t want their male puberty. If I had unlimited access to a Time Machine and hormones, I’d never have experienced the bone and muscle growth of a male puberty. I would have instead had the female puberty I wanted.

I didn’t want to be six feet tall. I didn’t want the muscles I got. I felt like a gorilla out there every day, covered in hair I didn’t want, feet the size of fucking aircraft carriers, gross in every way. Being so uncomfortable with locker rooms meant that I didn’t try out for sports after 9th grade.

If trans kids could just get access to the medicine they need, then the trans women athletes wouldn’t be “women with the bodies of grown men” in the first place. But instead of working for the betterment of all, the cis decide to deny us health care, then deny us participation BECAUSE they denied us health care. We get punished over and over and over because of fear.

I think a lot more cis gender males can relate to some of that feeling. The uncomfortable with their body, I mean. Lord knows, especially if you're heavy or small or super skinny, etc, that it's not uncommon to feel uncomfortable in your own body. I'm not saying it's the same as being in the wrong body, though. We tend to be given the liberty of "growing into our bodies" etc, whereas I would assume that was not something you were afforded until much later in life and after a lot of help or counseling.

 

[julius]

With regards to athletic competition, If the women and trans women could come together and establish some guidelines for participation (I believe that's been done already) and have checks and balances to keep out those who are not meeting legit criteria and just fucking around. it can work.
The % of women trans that want to compete probably isn't all that great so it should be manageable.
Men would not have an issue with male trans if they wanted to compete so why should women? Just needs to be done correctly for women's sports.

I wonder if that's the case? We don't seem hear about it as a concern, but I wonder how much of that is related to why gay men seem to get more hatred than gay women do? Not saying lesbians don't get attacked or marginalized, I'm sure they do. I just would assume that most of the marginalizing is done by straight men, and on average, I think straight men are fine with lesbians (as a sexual fantasy too).

Although that in itself is a form of marginalization, that straight men are capable of 'fixing' lesbian women.

Just don't get why we can't let adults be adults, with other adults.

 

[Everything Beagle]

I have a trans nephew who didn't begin transition until his 20s. Always been tall but frankly does not and probably never will look like a man. But at least he is happy, living and working in England and has a cute girlfriend.

give him ten years on HRT and you’ll be really surprised. Masculinizing hormones do a ton of good work with muscles, voice deepening, and body/facial hair… after top surgery, a very high percentage of trans guys just… pass. They don’t have to swim upstream trying to reverse a male puberty. If he’s already fairly tall he’ll look amazing after a full HRT puberty.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I wonder if that's the case? We don't seem hear about it as a concern, but I wonder how much of that is related to why gay men seem to get more hatred than gay women do? Not saying lesbians don't get attacked or marginalized, I'm sure they do. I just would assume that most of the marginalizing is done by straight men, and on average, I think straight men are fine with lesbians (as a sexual fantasy too).

Although that in itself is a form of marginalization, that straight men are capable of 'fixing' lesbian women.

Just don't get why we can't let adults be adults, with other adults.

Or kids for that matter.

With respect to sports, it gets more dicy. As, women are naturally disadvantaged when compared to men to differing degrees, based on the sport.

I don't think there is a perfect solution. Except that people need to have access to the medical care they and their doctor deem necessary, when they deem it necessary.

Then hopefully these concerns go away.

 

[Everything Beagle]

Sorry if my question/comment came off as though I thought a trans woman is just a man in a woman's clothes. I just wondered if that was actually even a thing (in the sense of a clear cut "unfair" physical advantage). Don't know if that was clear or not. I don't think that a trans woman (or young woman/high school or college age) competing in a sports with cis women is just a case where a physically stronger (born) male is just going to by physically dominant as if there is no physical or muscular changes made.

Growing up I had a friend who was not very tall. Maybe 5'3". So he was smaller than your typical male. And if he were to compete against women, he wouldn't have dominated or in all honestly, probably even won, even though he was in great physical shape (he was deceptively strong).

I posit that people think that it's just a case of young boys/men who are bigger and stronger athletes just want to change into women for the sake of being able to kick ass. I think a lot of it is the examples we saw in TV shows and comedies that gave birth to this stereotype. I.e., Jim Carrey's Vera De Milo character from In Living Color (not that that character was trans, but it was a masculine female body builder), or Martin Lawrences Sheneneh (I don't think the Sheneneh character was supposed to be a trans woman, but imho, it was intended to belittle or make fun of trans women), or the professional wrestler Chyna (who had masculine features, and grew up constantly with people assuming she was a male, and fans and other wrestlers used that as a joke at her expense).

Having grown up in the 90s, I remember all the jokes and gags and horror films and… men playing trans women because the real trans women didn’t look “trans enough” (i.e., like men in dresses) for the audience to properly clock. Or cis women playing trans women if the character needed to hide and trap another character like in Ace Ventura… hey remember the extended joke about Ace forcibly ripping off a trans woman’s pants and everyone puking at the sight of her penis? Fun times, fun times.

I think a lot more cis gender males can relate to some of that feeling. The uncomfortable with their body, I mean. Lord knows, especially if you're heavy or small or super skinny, etc, that it's not uncommon to feel uncomfortable in your own body. I'm not saying it's the same as being in the wrong body, though. We tend to be given the liberty of "growing into our bodies" etc, whereas I would assume that was not something you were afforded until much later in life and after a lot of help or counseling.

Gender is a spectrum and made up but socially, the genders of man and woman have a lot of gravity about them. A lot of this is learned from your family and society writ large (really, all of it is, but biological sex markers help curious children notice the differences and correlate).

imagine a world where being left handed was seen as satanic, evil, and so people who were born left-handed were taught to write right-handed. Before it was widely accepted, you’d have brave parents who insisted their left-handed child be allowed to stay left-handed, but the percentages would of course be minuscule. And then as it gains acceptance the numbers skyrocket until they level off at about 20%.

There are some indicators that a lot more people would be trans if they weren’t instantly and constantly bullied into conformity. I’m not saying 20%, but 0.5% feels… low. But right now we’re using an 8-crayons set of colors to describe a trans experience socially when we could be using a big 128-color crayon set instead. If a boy were allowed to choose between blue and periwinkle instead of just blue or pink, more boys might make the choice to be periwinkle instead.

Most detransitioners (like 9 out of 10) say the reason they went back was because of social pressure or lack of support from family or friends, and most retransition when they’re in a more supportive environment. Sending your relative to some conversion camp in the woods that bills itself as Totally Not A Conversion Camp sometimes works because you’re applying a hydronic press amount’s worth of social pressure to a child who just wants their family to love them again. But the effects only last as long as the kid is beholden to their family. Jokes in movies and on TV act as a sort of passive conversion camp, constantly reminding anyone who might step way out of line what society’s bounds are.

heck, even a lack of representation can seem like negative rep. Like did you know Star Trek writers wanted gay and trans characters in The Next Generation but all their attempts were stopped before filming by the producer of the show (Rick Berman) because he was just… a proud homophobe and didn’t want any of that gay shit in Star Trek? That’s society enforcing the gravity of gender (because even homosexuality before being accepted was a gender norms thing: back then the definition of being a proper man or a woman did not include being attracted to the same sex).

anyway this got away from me and became an essay; I just think the subject is interesting.

 

[Everything Beagle]

I don't disagree with you at all. But the fact that they are shitty people doesn't change the fact that they exist.

Shitty people will use this to ruin women's sports for one reason or another.

See, this is why I said we should change the thread title to "I'm Dealing with a Few Cisgender Issues" lol
Like for fuck's sake. This is just cis-on-cis crime.

 

[Phatguysrule]

See, this is why I said we should change the thread title to "I'm Dealing with a Few Cisgender Issues" lol
Like for fuck's sake. This is just cis-on-cis crime.

Yeah, I have no problem at all with any trans.

Only people who would destroy women's sports. My only concern, is in allowing women the ability to compete in fair competitions.

I just feel that women should not be disadvantaged in their sport or division, and anybody who would put them at a disadvantage should compete up to the next division. Nobody should ever be prevented from competing if they can compete.

I understand that it's a sensitive issue, but we have rules to make things possible for the most people.

There has to be a line somewhere that prevents abuse of the system.

Now, whatever is deemed to be fair, I'm alright with.

Perhaps a law allowing anybody who hasn't been through male puberty to compete with women would be fair? I'm not sure. I don't know if we even have enough information to make that call. If so, I'm good with it.

It seems certain that anybody who has gone through male puberty has a definite advantage over anybody who has not in most athletic competitions. So that seems to be a good place to draw the line.

If we can come up with an acceptable way to verify that it seems a good place to start.

But it must be based on science and facts. Not feelings or biases, IMO.

Regardless of this issue with women's sports, everyone should have access to the healthcare they and their doctor agree is needed.

 

[crandc]

What would destroy women's sports is women allying themselves with bigots who don't give a damn about women's sports, who oppose women's rights, but want to use women athletes to attack trans people.

 

[Everything Beagle]

Yeah, I have no problem at all with any trans.

Only people who would destroy women's sports. My only concern, is in allowing women the ability to compete in fair competitions.

I just feel that women should not be disadvantaged in their sport or division, and anybody who would put them at a disadvantage should compete up to the next division. Nobody should ever be prevented from competing if they can compete.

I understand that it's a sensitive issue, but we have rules to make things possible for the most people.

There has to be a line somewhere that prevents abuse of the system.

Now, whatever is deemed to be fair, I'm alright with.

Perhaps a law allowing anybody who hasn't been through male puberty to compete with women would be fair? I'm not sure. I don't know if we even have enough information to make that call. If so, I'm good with it.

It seems certain that anybody who has gone through male puberty has a definite advantage over anybody who has not in most athletic competitions. So that seems to be a good place to draw the line.

If we can come up with an acceptable way to verify that it seems a good place to start.

But it must be based on science and facts. Not feelings or biases, IMO.

Regardless of this issue with women's sports, everyone should have access to the healthcare they and their doctor agree is needed.

How would you measure the lack of male puberty? Paperwork? Hormone levels?
"Science and facts" is Ben Shapiro talk, but I understand the appeal to expertise.

I personally think paperwork should be enough: proof of puberty blockers starting before age 14. Proof of current prescription for blockers and/or estrogen HRT at the beginning of each season. When you start checking levels you're going to start reckoning with cis women who have higher testosterone levels being banned because of a quirk of genetics. I do not want that to happen, and I really dislike the olympic committee's rulings to that effect.

Also, as an aside, I think sports should be co-ed bracketed by age before 7th grade.

The trick is getting HRT/blockers into the hands of the kids in time. You know how there's always a bill up for vote in Oregon about putting in a Sales Tax with the promise that they'll definitely get rid of income tax or property tax to compensate? And it always gets voted down because everyone knows that they won't lower income or property taxes. That's how I feel about that rule about trans people who didn't have a male puberty. Like, it sounds totally reasonable right? But until we get accessible and accepted childhood hormone therapy, that rule would just be a ban.

I would be all for it, though, if we got the gender therapy we need.

There will be follow-on issues like how a lot of teens who get the HRT they need in time will be more likely to be stealth than current trans women are. In this way, matters of privacy (HIPAA or otherwise) need to be considered. And of course there will be the protests and walk-outs and angry carrying on... but it's better than "no blanket bans but every school is individually allowed to ban trans athletes"

 

[Phatguysrule]

How would you measure the lack of male puberty? Paperwork? Hormone levels?
"Science and facts" is Ben Shapiro talk, but I understand the appeal to expertise.

I personally think paperwork should be enough: proof of puberty blockers starting before age 14. Proof of current prescription for blockers and/or estrogen HRT at the beginning of each season. When you start checking levels you're going to start reckoning with cis women who have higher testosterone levels being banned because of a quirk of genetics. I do not want that to happen, and I really dislike the olympic committee's rulings to that effect.

Also, as an aside, I think sports should be co-ed bracketed by age before 7th grade.

The trick is getting HRT/blockers into the hands of the kids in time. You know how there's always a bill up for vote in Oregon about putting in a Sales Tax with the promise that they'll definitely get rid of income tax or property tax to compensate? And it always gets voted down because everyone knows that they won't lower income or property taxes. That's how I feel about that rule about trans people who didn't have a male puberty. Like, it sounds totally reasonable right? But until we get accessible and accepted childhood hormone therapy, that rule would just be a ban.

I would be all for it, though, if we got the gender therapy we need.

There will be follow-on issues like how a lot of teens who get the HRT they need in time will be more likely to be stealth than current trans women are. In this way, matters of privacy (HIPAA or otherwise) need to be considered. And of course there will be the protests and walk-outs and angry carrying on... but it's better than "no blanket bans but every school is individually allowed to ban trans athletes"

Excellent points, and all very valid concerns. I'm good with paperwork as proof. That would mean a doctor was on board and verified everything.

That's all I've really ever suggested.

What age and when, I'll trust your judgement. 14 seems late to me, but I hit puberty at like 9.

 

[Shaboid]

Thank you for merging with a different thread. That previous title was just a head scratcher, confusing, and offensive. Look at the person who started it though, what should we expect.

There is another lawsuit in California involving the DGPT and Natalie Ryan, a trans woman professional disc golfer, that is worth looking at.

Transgender disc golf athlete sues after being told she cannot compete in California event

Idk if the rule allowing trans women to compete as long as they transitioned before the age of 12 is a good one. Does that go too far? Not far enough? Idk. This is a complex (or maybe it isn't) issue with seemingly slippery slope arguments on both sides.

 

[crandc]

It's getting harder and harder to transition early. So as @Everything Beagle said, trans people are getting punished twice.

I have yet to see actual evidence that cis girls and women are harmed by the presence of trans girls and women.

 

[Phatguysrule]

It's getting harder and harder to transition early. So as @Everything Beagle said, trans people are getting punished twice.

I have yet to see actual evidence that cis girls and women are harmed by the presence of trans girls and women.

The solution to me seems to be universal healthcare and making sure medical decisions are made between patients and doctors.

 

[julius]

The solution to me seems to be universal healthcare and making sure medical decisions as are made between patients and doctors.

You're talking crazy talk now. How else are we supposed to control women, gay men, lesbian women, transgender men and women, parents of children and young adults, if we let them think for themselves!?!?

 

[Everything Beagle]

Idk if the rule allowing trans women to compete as long as they transitioned before the age of 12 is a good one. Does that go too far? Not far enough? Idk. This is a complex (or maybe it isn't) issue with seemingly slippery slope arguments on both sides.

(I suggested 14 but it doesn’t matter much) I mean, it’s not my favorite solution to be sure but it’s the one I feel like might actually get a little traction. But unless there’s socioplitical acceptance of the medical needs, it’s a non-starter.

 

[Everything Beagle]

Excellent points, and all very valid concerns. I'm good with paperwork as proof. That would mean a doctor was on board and verified everything.

That's all I've really ever suggested.

What age and when, I'll trust your judgement. 14 seems late to me, but I hit puberty at like 9.

14 would be my cutoff to get on blockers to participate in sports; I think back to my time, and I was 5’6” at 12 and 6’0” at 15. If I’d started blockers on my 14th birthday, I’d have been 5’9”, which is what my sister ended up being. I would have really liked playing girls’ basketball in HS, and at 5’9” I’d have been an undersized PF (our girls’ team had a center who was 6’2”).

 

[THE HCP]

It's getting harder and harder to transition early. So as @Everything Beagle said, trans people are getting punished twice.

I have yet to see actual evidence that cis girls and women are harmed by the presence of trans girls and women.

I don’t have enough info to know either, but is a once male 18 year old (I’m using your term, because I don’t know what else to use) trans girl, lose their strength, power and speed simply by transitioning? Like it just goes away? Honest question. On the flip side, does a 18 year old trans boy acquire strength, power and speed? I don’t see many trans boys all of a sudden playing football or basketball. Please educate me on this…..
@crandc the only reason I even posted in this thread is because in my opinion, I don’t want my daughter getting injured. I’ve seen what can happen in co-ed leagues.

 

[Everything Beagle]

I don’t have enough info to know either, but is a once male 18 year old (I’m using your term, because I don’t know what else to use) trans girl, lose their strength, power and speed simply by transitioning? Like it just goes away? Honest question. On the flip side, does a 18 year old trans boy acquire strength, power and speed? I don’t see many trans boys all of a sudden playing football or basketball. Please educate me on this…..
@crandc the only reason I even posted in this thread is because in my opinion, I don’t want my daughter getting injured. I’ve seen what can happen in co-ed leagues.

Yes. There are studies (not many because there’s no money in studying trans women) that show after one year on Estradiol (the estrogen pill I take as part of my hormone replacement therapy), trans muscle mass and overall strength falls to the level of a comparably sized woman.

I want to offer up an example of sports with trans people working out well: the roller derby league here in Portland (the Rose City Rollers) allows trans women and non-binary people to play on their teams. One of my friends is a jammer on one of the teams, so I’ve been watching a lot over the last few seasons. In a high contact sport like derby, trans people have no advantage. One of the top 4 jammers is trans (most of the trans players are jammers because trans women stereotypically are pretty lanky), but the other three are cis. The injuries are a little one sided, though it’s trans people getting injured more often since the cis blockers have football player muscle mass on them.

Trans women are not going to injure your daughter, John. Please trust me on this. This is probably because no D1 team will have even one trans woman except possibly as a bench warmer walk-on. But also it’s because estrogen works really well at turning you into a girl.

 

[THE HCP]

Yes. There are studies (not many because there’s no money in studying trans women) that show after one year on Estradiol (the estrogen pill I take as part of my hormone replacement therapy), trans muscle mass and overall strength falls to the level of a comparably sized woman.

I want to offer up an example of sports with trans people working out well: the roller derby league here in Portland (the Rose City Rollers) allows trans women and non-binary people to play on their teams. One of my friends is a jammer on one of the teams, so I’ve been watching a lot over the last few seasons. In a high contact sport like derby, trans people have no advantage. One of the top 4 jammers is trans (most of the trans players are jammers because trans women stereotypically are pretty lanky), but the other three are cis. The injuries are a little one sided, though it’s trans people getting injured more often since the cis blockers have football player muscle mass on them.

Trans women are not going to injure your daughter, John. Please trust me on this. This is probably because no D1 team will have even one trans woman except possibly as a bench warmer walk-on. But also it’s because estrogen works really well at turning you into a girl.

Thanks for taking the time and having patience with me. I have NO experience with this and my only take can be on what’s best for my daughter out there. I’m curious about the other side though as well. Do you have any knowledge of a trans boy or man going out and killing it in the field of competitive sports? Just wondering if the process is opposite with them?

 

[Everything Beagle]

Thanks for taking the time and having patience with me. I have NO experience with this and my only take can be on what’s best for my daughter out there. I’m curious about the other side though as well. Do you have any knowledge of a trans boy or man going out and killing it in the field of competitive sports? Just wondering if the process is opposite with them?

Yeah there was that wrestler who started on testosterone in HS and got on a college men's team. His story has been passed around a lot; Texas forced him to wrestle women because he was a "biological female" and it was a total shambles. There's also been a few trans men who have won bodybuilding competitions (though not since like the 70s).

Here's the thing: we haven't had many opportunities; this is still the age when legends are made for us. We don't have enough athletes to make a Top 100 Trans Athletes list, let alone a Top 100 basketball or Top 100 soccer. Our era is now, and the future... if we're allowed.

 

[crandc]

I think @Everything Beagle answered @THE HCP questions. I really have nothing to add.

 

[THE HCP]

Thank you both.

 

[Everything Beagle]

Thank you both.

Hey, for real, thank you. This stuff is intimidating at first, but keeping an open mind about it is really appreciated.

 

[Everything Beagle]