Tax Reform For Oregon

[Denny Crane]

NH has no sales tax OR income tax

"Live Free or Die."

Right?

or is it, "Don't tread on me" ?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

You got it right the first time

No adult seatbelt law, or motorcycle helmet law either

 

[3RA1N1AC]

There's still prepared food tax and hotel tax and shit like that though, tolls on the highways, basically "tourist" taxes that take more from NH residents than they do from tourists

 

[barfo]

We do have a sales tax. A very high one. And we have a very high income tax, too.

I know that. You didn't answer my question.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

I know that. You didn't answer my question.

barfo

My answer is if you don't like taxes, don't buy this bait and switch.

 

[barfo]

My answer is if you don't like taxes, don't buy this bait and switch.

You still didn't answer my question. It's not a trap. I'm just curious what form of taxation (assuming for the moment there has to be taxation at all) you prefer, and why.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

You still didn't answer my question. It's not a trap. I'm just curious what form of taxation (assuming for the moment there has to be taxation at all) you prefer, and why.

barfo

Sales tax is fine. It's based upon consumption.

If there's going to be one, you want to completely eliminate the income tax and codify that in the constitution (state or federal) by amendment.

Otherwise you will get what you want - tax beyond what people can bear.

 

[barfo]

Sales tax is fine. It's based upon consumption.

If there's going to be one, you want to completely eliminate the income tax and codify that in the constitution (state or federal) by amendment.

I'd be totally fine with that, personally. In fact I'd be fine with a sales tax only - no income, no property tax.

But it looks like the proposal will be to cut the income tax top rate down from 11 to 6%, and add a 5% sales tax.

I'm suppose I'm on the wrong side of this issue for a liberal - the proposed reform will make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

barfo

 

[PtldPlatypus]

We do have a sales tax. A very high one. And we have a very high income tax, too. That's the future of Oregon if they allow a sales tax.

Wouldn't it be possible, if not even reasonable, to codify in a tie between the sales and income tax rates? For instance, mandate that the sum total of the sales tax and median income tax rate never exceed (say) 11%, and write it into the state constitution to require an amendment to ever have it increased. As BP postulated, is it not possible to enact safeguards to help prevent abuse of the system?

 

[barfo]

Wouldn't it be possible, if not even reasonable, to codify in a tie between the sales and income tax rates? For instance, mandate that the sum total of the sales tax and median income tax rate never exceed (say) 11%, and write it into the state constitution to require an amendment to ever have it increased. As BP postulated, is it not possible to enact safeguards to help prevent abuse of the system?

That is possible, of course. I'd argue, however, that most of the abuse of the system has actually come at the hand of the voters, not the legislature:

1) sales tax defeats
2) the kicker law
3) measure 5
4) measure 47

Those things (and maybe more that I'm not thinking of right now) are the primary reasons we have the crazy-ass tax system we have today.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Wouldn't it be possible, if not even reasonable, to codify in a tie between the sales and income tax rates? For instance, mandate that the sum total of the sales tax and median income tax rate never exceed (say) 11%, and write it into the state constitution to require an amendment to ever have it increased. As BP postulated, is it not possible to enact safeguards to help prevent abuse of the system?

Like I wrote earlier, the federal income tax was sold as a temporary and small 2% tax only on the rich. Now look at it.

We elect politicians who have grand schemes to spend more than they take in so they need more and we'll end up suffering for it.

Another example is the Reagan tax cuts. I favor tax cuts at every chance, but those cuts also involved closing tax loopholes. Revenues went through the roof, which is great because the economy did likewise. But the tax rates went back up over time with the loop holes closed.

So rather than govt. doing you a favor, I see them ready to screw you over when the time is right.

 

[blue32]

Like I wrote earlier, the federal income tax was sold as a temporary and small 2% tax only on the rich. Now look at it.

We elect politicians who have grand schemes to spend more than they take in so they need more and we'll end up suffering for it.

Another example is the Reagan tax cuts. I favor tax cuts at every chance, but those cuts also involved closing tax loopholes. Revenues went through the roof, which is great because the economy did likewise. But the tax rates went back up over time with the loop holes closed.

So rather than govt. doing you a favor, I see them ready to screw you over when the time is right.

Here here... sums it up nicely. Give them an inch they'll take a foot.

 

[barfo]

Here here... sums it up nicely. Give them an inch they'll take a foot.

The usual analogy here: Suppose you have a stool, it would balance nicely with 3 legs. However, yours only has 2, and furthermore, one of the legs is way too long. Someone offers to install a third leg and also trim the long leg down to size. You refuse on the grounds that with three legs, there are more chances that one of the legs could be too long?

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

The usual analogy here: Suppose you have a stool, it would balance nicely with 3 legs. However, yours only has 2, and furthermore, one of the legs is way too long. Someone offers to install a third leg and also trim the long leg down to size. You refuse on the grounds that with three legs, there are more chances that one of the legs could be too long?

barfo

But I know the stool is poorly designed, I have my own trees to cut down to make another leg, and all the tools.

I wouldn't if the EPA forbids me to cut down the tree and the govt. taxes me too much that I couldn't afford the tools.

 

[barfo]

But I know the stool is poorly designed, I have my own trees to cut down to make another leg, and all the tools.

I wouldn't if the EPA forbids me to cut down the tree and the govt. taxes me too much that I couldn't afford the tools.

Well, maybe you are better off moving someplace where you can sit by yourself and play with your own stool.

barfo

 

[Sinobas]

_____________________________

Households earning $185,879 or greater would see the biggest benefit from the tax changes, with an average $7,346 more each year. Every other income group would see a slight dip in household income.

______________________________

Cutting taxes for the wealthy, increase for everyone else? Sounds brilliant!

 

[blue32]

The usual analogy here: Suppose you have a stool, it would balance nicely with 3 legs. However, yours only has 2, and furthermore, one of the legs is way too long. Someone offers to install a third leg and also trim the long leg down to size. You refuse on the grounds that with three legs, there are more chances that one of the legs could be too long?

barfo

Tripod! Terrible idea. I'll fix my own and flush the crappy stool down the toilet.

 

[barfo]

I'll fix my own

How will you fix your own?

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Stool is what you get for your taxes.

 

[blue32]

How will you fix your own?

barfo

I'm a smart resourceful fellow. I can and will figure it out.

 

[dviss1]

The idea is raise more money, ie, raise taxes in a manner than uses smoke & mirrors and make it easier to raise them after that to pay for social services for peo-ple working under the table, employee unions...

Since when did being in a union prevent you from paying taxes?

 

[dviss1]

barfo, I wouldn't bring up the horrific mess that is California taxes. That's poor salesmanship.

And that's why Cali went from a $60 Bil deficit to a $2.4 Bil surplus? Because they are in a horrific mess?

http://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Good-news-California-Surplus-is-2-4-billion-4997158.php

"The good news comes after an era that saw one of the worst budget crises in California history - the fiscal shortfall sank to $60 billion in the 2009-10 budget, the state controller mailed IOUs to vendors in 2009 and state lawmakers slashed programs year after year to make ends meet.

Now, thanks to the passage of Proposition 30 last year and the improving economy, California is looking at surpluses for the next six years - even after the temporary taxes under Prop. 30 expire, according to the Legislative Analyst's Office.

The legislative analyst projected surpluses of $2.4 billion by June 2014 and $5.6 billion by June 2015. Reserves are projected to continue growing to nearly $10 billion by June 2018."

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

And that's why Cali went from a $60 Bil deficit to a $2.4 Bil surplus? Because they are in a horrific mess?

http://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Good-news-California-Surplus-is-2-4-billion-4997158.php

"The good news comes after an era that saw one of the worst budget crises in California history - the fiscal shortfall sank to $60 billion in the 2009-10 budget, the state controller mailed IOUs to vendors in 2009 and state lawmakers slashed programs year after year to make ends meet.

Now, thanks to the passage of Proposition 30 last year and the improving economy, California is looking at surpluses for the next six years - even after the temporary taxes under Prop. 30 expire, according to the Legislative Analyst's Office.

The legislative analyst projected surpluses of $2.4 billion by June 2014 and $5.6 billion by June 2015. Reserves are projected to continue growing to nearly $10 billion by June 2018."

Tax-wise, Califonication may ne the worst in ther nation.

 

[Denny Crane]

Creative accounting and fudging the numbers.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/01/18/gov-brown-uses-tricks-to-balance-ca-budget

 

[MARIS61]

So the idea here is to reduce the state income tax (primariliy for high wage earners) and add a 5% sales tax...

Go back home you f'ing californian!

Seriously, every idiot I've ever heard propose a sales tax in Oregon is from california, the poster state for sales taxes. How's that working out down there?

The only tax reform Oregon needs is to make paying property taxes mandatory. By this I mean businesses, because we all know it's already mandatory for all of us citizens. But dishonest city counselors and county commissioners accept bribes to waive hundreds of millions of dollars in property taxes for big corporations and developers supposedly so they will bring jobs.

What they bring is decades of debt for property tax payers and their children. The taxes they don't pay end up on your bill, and will be on your children's bills. The school levies, the road and prison bonds, these are only needed because most large businesses pay little to none of their share of property taxes.

 

[jlprk]

California Prop. 30 raises most of its money not from the 0.25% sales tax increase, but instead from the income tax raise on those making over $250,000.

According to the 2013-14 Governor's Budget Summary, released on January 10, 2013, Proposition 30 is estimated to increase personal income tax revenues by $3.2 billion in fiscal year 2011‑12, $4.8 billion in FY 2012‑13, and $4.9 billion in FY 2013‑14. It is estimated to increase sales and use tax revenues by $611 million in FY 2012‑13 and $1.3 billion in FY 2013‑14.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_30_(2012)

It stopped the giant deficits caused by Calfornia having a Republican governor, and the same thing would solve the national deficit as it did in the Clinton years.