Taxes and Obama supporters

[barfo]

Dumb analogy. Nobody here is arguing that the fines for you speeding should be higher.

Oh, I see. So the argument is that anything you advocate as public policy, you should voluntarily do yourself. If you think going to war in Iraq is a good idea, for instance, you should join the army.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Overgeneralize much?



Prove it.

LOL, you want regulations, you prove they prevented disaster. How about the stock market crash and financial meltdown of 2008/09?

So you think Enron was no big deal?

Enron was a product of regulations. What regulations did we have ALREADY IN PLACE to prevent a company from making too big a bet on something (Internet, in Enron's case).

What interest group, in your view, benefits from Sarbox?

barfo

Accounting firms and lawyers.

EDIT: I see BrianFromWA set you straight in an earlier post.

 

[maxiep]

which seems to suggest it's not a "conservative vs liberal" or "republican vs democrat" issue that people make it out to be.

It's really not. I'm in favor of limited government, as I think freedom and the individual responsibility that it requires make for a better society. When people need help, I'm fine with the government stepping in as a last resort and I'm more than happy to fund a social safety net with my taxes. More often, however, private charities and local organizations are better equipped to help, which is why most of my charitable donations go to those entities.

Fiscally, I'd be considered quite "conservative" (and not a "compassionate conservative"). However, socially, I'm quite liberal in terms of issues of equality and freedom. I don't fit in any party or any characterization.

 

[maxiep]

56 posts in, and not a single Obama supporter will cop to giving additional tax dollars to the federal government, other than the absolute minimum that is asked of them.

Bingo. The Left is remarkably generous with other peoples' money.

 

[barfo]

Enron was a product of regulations. What regulations did we have ALREADY IN PLACE to prevent a company from making too big a bet on something (Internet, in Enron's case).

Huh? Do you know what Enron was?

barfo

 

[blazerboy30]

Oh, I see. So the argument is that anything you advocate as public policy, you should voluntarily do yourself. If you think going to war in Iraq is a good idea, for instance, you should join the army.

barfo

Strawman.

But I'll fix your analogy for you since you're playing dumb...

If I'm a strong supporter of going to war in Iraq, then yes, I should be willing to pay more tax to do so. And yes, I should be willing to give more money beyond the minimum.

 

[barfo]

Strawman.

But I'll fix your analogy for you since you're playing dumb...

If I'm a strong supporter of going to war in Iraq, then yes, I should be willing to pay more tax to do so. And yes, I should be willing to give more money beyond the minimum.

So, are you a strong supporter of ANY government service? And do you donate extra money to pay for it?

barfo

 

[blazerboy30]

So, are you a strong supporter of ANY government service? And do you donate extra money to pay for it?

barfo

I want you to pay more tax for the services I want. You make enough money, you can give more.

 

[barfo]

I want you to pay more tax for the services I want. You make enough money, you can give more.

You are correct, I can. But I notice you avoided the question.

barfo

 

[blazerboy30]

You are correct, I can. But I notice you avoided the question.

barfo

Then do it. You can provide several people with the health insurance you want them to have so badly.

And the answer to your question is: yes.

 

[barfo]

Then do it. You can provide several people with the health insurance you want them to have so badly.

And the answer to your question is: yes.

Really? You donate extra money to the treasury in addition to your taxes? Very interesting. So what is the service that motivates you to do this?

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Huh? Do you know what Enron was?

barfo

Do you?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1684503.stm
http://www.chron.com/business/enron/article/Enron-internet-division-in-disarray-witness-1517211.php

 

[barfo]

Do you?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1684503.stm
http://www.chron.com/business/enron/article/Enron-internet-division-in-disarray-witness-1517211.php

The problem with Enron was not that they made 'too big of a bet on the Internet'. If that was all they did, none of us would know the name today, anymore than zillions of other dotcom busts.

It was the accounting fraud that was the problem.

barfo

 

[maxiep]

I don't think he's an Obama supporter, but here is one person who paid more than required on their taxes:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8fc4288e-03f9-11e2-b91b-00144feabdc0.html#axzz278z2Yqbb

 

[Denny Crane]

The problem with Enron was not that they made 'too big of a bet on the Internet'. If that was all they did, none of us would know the name today, anymore than zillions of other dotcom busts.

It was the accounting fraud that was the problem.

barfo

Their internet trading platform was a giant money loser. In the $billions a year.

Otherwise, it'd be a successful oil and gas trading company to this day.

 

[blazerboy30]

Really? You donate extra money to the treasury in addition to your taxes? Very interesting. So what is the service that motivates you to do this?

barfo

Who said I donate to the treasury?

 

[barfo]

Their internet trading platform was a giant money loser. In the $billions a year.

Otherwise, it'd be a successful oil and gas trading company to this day.

So what? There's nothing special about that. Enron is of interest because of the accounting fraud which led to Sarbox.

barfo

 

[barfo]

If I'm a strong supporter of going to war in Iraq, then yes, I should be willing to pay more tax to do so. And yes, I should be willing to give more money beyond the minimum.

So, are you a strong supporter of ANY government service? And do you donate extra money to pay for it?

barfo

And the answer to your question is: yes.

Really? You donate extra money to the treasury in addition to your taxes? Very interesting. So what is the service that motivates you to do this?

barfo

Who said I donate to the treasury?

So what did you mean if not that?

barfo

 

[blazerboy30]

So what did you mean if not that?

barfo

Do donations have to go directly to the treasury?

If I'm donating to public education, I have to direct it through the treasury first?

 

[barfo]

Do donations have to go directly to the treasury?

If I'm donating to public education, I have to direct it through the treasury first?

Not so far as I know. Tis true, I did say government, not federal government. Although we were implicitly talking about federal government, I didn't specify. So a point for you.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

So what? There's nothing special about that. Enron is of interest because of the accounting fraud which led to Sarbox.

barfo

Just like the accounting fraud that happened at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac after passing Sarbennes-Oxley?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/23/AR2006052300184.html

Thank goodness for regulations.

 

[barfo]

Just like the accounting fraud that happened at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac after passing Sarbennes-Oxley?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/23/AR2006052300184.html

Thank goodness for regulations.

First, most of that happened before Sarbox passed. Second, Fannie and Freddie were mostly exempt from Sarbox when it did pass. Nice try, though!

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

First, most of that happened before Sarbox passed. Second, Fannie and Freddie were mostly exempt from Sarbox when it did pass. Nice try, though!

barfo

Sarbanes Oxley passed in 2002. Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac accounting scandals were 2006.

If you aren't satisfied that regulations failed in those cases, how about Lehman Brothers?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/13/business/13lehman.html?_r=1

The govt. did a good job of keeping Bernie Madoff from ripping people off. Wait, no they didn't.

 

[barfo]

Sarbanes Oxley passed in 2002. Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac accounting scandals were 2006.

Your link says 1998-2004.

If you aren't satisfied that regulations failed in those cases, how about Lehman Brothers?

The govt. did a good job of keeping Bernie Madoff from ripping people off. Wait, no they didn't.

If you expect government to prevent all crime, you are being just a tad unrealistic.

Jeez, we have laws against murder, and people get murdered all the time. Obviously, the laws against murder are a failure and should be repealed.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Your link says 1998-2004.



If you expect government to prevent all crime, you are being just a tad unrealistic.

Jeez, we have laws against murder, and people get murdered all the time. Obviously, the laws against murder are a failure and should be repealed.

barfo

Which part of 1998-2004 was after Sarbanes-Oxley? It also says the accounting problems occurred at Freddie Mac in 2003.

The FEDERAL government doesn't prosecute but a very few murder cases. For good reason. However, we already have laws against fraud, so if fraud is going to be committed anyhow, why not just use THOSE to prosecute the CEOs and accountants or other individuals that perpetrate them?

 

[barfo]

Which part of 1998-2004 was after Sarbanes-Oxley?

Well, Sarbox was passed in mid-2002 and most of the provisions took effect mid-2004 or later.

The FEDERAL government doesn't prosecute but a very few murder cases. For good reason. However, we already have laws against fraud, so if fraud is going to be committed anyhow, why not just use THOSE to prosecute the CEOs and accountants or other individuals that perpetrate them?

The idea is to try to reduce the amount of fraud, by making it harder to do, and to make it easier to detect.

barfo

 

[PapaG]

Well, Sarbox was passed in mid-2002 and most of the provisions took effect mid-2004 or later.



The idea is to try to reduce the amount of fraud, by making it harder to do, and to make it easier to detect.

barfo

In other words, just wave the white flag.

 

[barfo]

In other words, just wave the white flag.

I don't know how enacting rules is 'waving the white flag'.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

I don't know how enacting rules is 'waving the white flag'.

barfo

How effective was Sarbanes Oxley in making it easier to detect any fraud that went on?

I do not see that the amount of fraud was reduced in the least.

 

[julius]

I don't know how enacting rules is 'waving the white flag'.

barfo

I think he's saying that he's just waving the white flag on the election.