OT The arrest of the WikiLeaks founder amplifies an important free-speech conversation.

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SlyPokerDog

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The arrest of Julian Assange presages a free-speech debate that we’ve been avoiding for the seven years he was living in the Ecuadorean Embassy in London: Can Assange be lawfully prosecuted for somehow facilitating illegal theft of classified information? Or is the organization he founded, WikiLeaks, protected by the First Amendment when it publishes documents supplied by others, like the New York Times when it published the Pentagon Papers?



Current law is not especially clear on this question. The actual 1971 Pentagon Papers case, New York Times v. United States, wasn’t about punishing the Times after the fact. It was about the distinct (albeit related) question of whether the government could block the publication of classified material before it hit the newsstands — what First Amendment lawyers call “prior restraint.”



The Supreme Court’s answer was no, the government can’t block a newspaper from publishing classified material that it has received without committing any legal wrong on its own.



The right to publish, however, leaves open the possibility of prosecuting anyone who actively violates national security law by disclosing classified information — in other words, punishing the leaker. It’s on this logic that Chelsea Manning, a former U.S. Army analyst, was convicted and imprisoned in 2013 for leaking classified military files and diplomatic cables to WikiLeaks. (Her sentence was commuted by President Barack Obama before he left office in 2017) And no one doubts that Edward Snowden — the former National Security Agency contractor who gave secret documents to WikiLeaks before escaping to Russia — could be convicted in U.S. court if he were captured, arrested and tried.

The difficult question lies in between: What about a person or institution that in some way coordinates with the initial leaker? Under ordinary criminal law principles, an accomplice or someone who aids and abets a felony can be charged with a crime. Arguably — and of course depending on the facts — someone who coordinates with a leaker to receive and publish unlawfully leaked information could be subject to criminal penalties.

That's the crime the government says Assange committed. In a news release, the Department of Justice said Thursday that Assange helped Manning crack a password while she was taking information from government servers. If the government can prove that, it looks like a genuine crime of participating in the hacking.

Mere encouragement is a closer call. The Justice Department says that “during an exchange, Manning told Assange that ‘after this upload, that’s all I really have got left.” To which Assange replied, ‘curious eyes never run dry in my experience.’”

The government may say a jury should decide if this is aiding and abetting in the form of encouragement. That’s worrisome. Some forms of encouragement would count as aiding and abetting, but the government should be especially cautious about charging that when free speech rights are in question.

Because of all the gray area around Assange’s involvement in the Manning case, we might wonder why the government isn’t charging Assange in connection with the investigation into Russian efforts to meddle in the 2016 presidential campaign.

After all, we know that Assange was in touch with Roger Stone and Jerome Corsi, associates of Donald Trump and his campaign, revealing that he had documents that Russian intelligence had hacked from the Democratic National Committee. Our source is documents filed by special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation.

Mueller indicted 12 Russian intelligence agents who engaged in the hacking in the first place. He charged them with a criminal conspiracy to steal the materials and “stage” the release of the documents “to interfere with the 2016 U.S. presidential election.”

It is plausible that Assange could still be charged with being a participant in this conspiracy. After all, he was the one in charge of the release of stolen DNC documents.

To be sure, Mueller appears not to have obtained sufficient evidence to charge Stone or Corsi for being part of the conspiracy. Assange, however, is a different matter. WikiLeaks was in direct touch with the Russian intelligence hackers, according to the agents’ indictment.

The crucial explanation may be that we don’t know what evidence Mueller’s investigation obtained on what coordination existed between Assange and the Russians.

If there’s evidence that Assange actively participated alongside the Russians, advising them on their leaks or otherwise encouraging them, it would put Assange over the edge from being merely the publisher of the leaks to having been an accomplice in the crime of hacking. In that case, only the most absolutist First Amendment diehards would object to seeing him prosecuted.

Imagine, however, that there isn’t evidence of Assange doing more with the Russian hackers than receiving their information. Under these circumstances, the key to Assange’s alleged criminal conduct would be the charge that he released the Russians’ information to try to affect the outcome of an election.

But that could also be said of a newspaper that agrees to publish leaked information in the middle of a contested election season. Indeed, the First Amendment protects precisely the right of speakers to try to affect electoral outcomes. That’s one of the main goals of the freedom of speech. Political speech has always been considered the core of the freedom.

The main upshot of Assange’s efforts with Russia may be political, not legal.

When Assange went into the Ecuadorian Embassy, it was still possible for liberals to view him sympathetically, the way some liberals saw Snowden and Manning as whistle-blowers for the problems they revealed within the national security state.

Mueller’s investigation assures that Assange won’t be getting much sympathy from liberals.

Nevertheless, liberals and conservatives alike should keep a careful eye on the First Amendment implications of the Assange prosecution — and hope the evidence is clear enough to convict him without chilling the freedom of the press.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...ikileaks-conspiracy-charge-could-chill-speech
 
I'm not sure. Unless they charge him for publishing it, the free speech angle doesn't really get addressed. Publishing stolen stuff is arguably ok under the 1st. Stealing stuff, which is what he's been charged with, is not a free speech issue.

barfo
 
In that case, only the most absolutist First Amendment diehards would object to seeing him prosecuted.

Guess that is me. "Stealing" proof of our government's crimes should never be illegal.
 
In that case, only the most absolutist First Amendment diehards would object to seeing him prosecuted.

Guess that is me. "Stealing" proof of our government's crimes should never be illegal.

What about stealing stuff that isn't proof of government crimes? Should that be illegal?

Because surely much of the stuff that Manning stole wasn't evidence of crimes.

barfo
 
The arrest of Julian Assange presages a free-speech debate that we’ve been avoiding for the seven years he was living in the Ecuadorean Embassy in London: Can Assange be lawfully prosecuted for somehow facilitating illegal theft of classified information? Or is the organization he founded, WikiLeaks, protected by the First Amendment when it publishes documents supplied by others, like the New York Times when it published the Pentagon Papers?



Current law is not especially clear on this question. The actual 1971 Pentagon Papers case, New York Times v. United States, wasn’t about punishing the Times after the fact. It was about the distinct (albeit related) question of whether the government could block the publication of classified material before it hit the newsstands — what First Amendment lawyers call “prior restraint.”



The Supreme Court’s answer was no, the government can’t block a newspaper from publishing classified material that it has received without committing any legal wrong on its own.



The right to publish, however, leaves open the possibility of prosecuting anyone who actively violates national security law by disclosing classified information — in other words, punishing the leaker. It’s on this logic that Chelsea Manning, a former U.S. Army analyst, was convicted and imprisoned in 2013 for leaking classified military files and diplomatic cables to WikiLeaks. (Her sentence was commuted by President Barack Obama before he left office in 2017) And no one doubts that Edward Snowden — the former National Security Agency contractor who gave secret documents to WikiLeaks before escaping to Russia — could be convicted in U.S. court if he were captured, arrested and tried.

The difficult question lies in between: What about a person or institution that in some way coordinates with the initial leaker? Under ordinary criminal law principles, an accomplice or someone who aids and abets a felony can be charged with a crime. Arguably — and of course depending on the facts — someone who coordinates with a leaker to receive and publish unlawfully leaked information could be subject to criminal penalties.

That's the crime the government says Assange committed. In a news release, the Department of Justice said Thursday that Assange helped Manning crack a password while she was taking information from government servers. If the government can prove that, it looks like a genuine crime of participating in the hacking.

Mere encouragement is a closer call. The Justice Department says that “during an exchange, Manning told Assange that ‘after this upload, that’s all I really have got left.” To which Assange replied, ‘curious eyes never run dry in my experience.’”

The government may say a jury should decide if this is aiding and abetting in the form of encouragement. That’s worrisome. Some forms of encouragement would count as aiding and abetting, but the government should be especially cautious about charging that when free speech rights are in question.

Because of all the gray area around Assange’s involvement in the Manning case, we might wonder why the government isn’t charging Assange in connection with the investigation into Russian efforts to meddle in the 2016 presidential campaign.

After all, we know that Assange was in touch with Roger Stone and Jerome Corsi, associates of Donald Trump and his campaign, revealing that he had documents that Russian intelligence had hacked from the Democratic National Committee. Our source is documents filed by special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation.

Mueller indicted 12 Russian intelligence agents who engaged in the hacking in the first place. He charged them with a criminal conspiracy to steal the materials and “stage” the release of the documents “to interfere with the 2016 U.S. presidential election.”

It is plausible that Assange could still be charged with being a participant in this conspiracy. After all, he was the one in charge of the release of stolen DNC documents.

To be sure, Mueller appears not to have obtained sufficient evidence to charge Stone or Corsi for being part of the conspiracy. Assange, however, is a different matter. WikiLeaks was in direct touch with the Russian intelligence hackers, according to the agents’ indictment.

The crucial explanation may be that we don’t know what evidence Mueller’s investigation obtained on what coordination existed between Assange and the Russians.

If there’s evidence that Assange actively participated alongside the Russians, advising them on their leaks or otherwise encouraging them, it would put Assange over the edge from being merely the publisher of the leaks to having been an accomplice in the crime of hacking. In that case, only the most absolutist First Amendment diehards would object to seeing him prosecuted.

Imagine, however, that there isn’t evidence of Assange doing more with the Russian hackers than receiving their information. Under these circumstances, the key to Assange’s alleged criminal conduct would be the charge that he released the Russians’ information to try to affect the outcome of an election.

But that could also be said of a newspaper that agrees to publish leaked information in the middle of a contested election season. Indeed, the First Amendment protects precisely the right of speakers to try to affect electoral outcomes. That’s one of the main goals of the freedom of speech. Political speech has always been considered the core of the freedom.

The main upshot of Assange’s efforts with Russia may be political, not legal.

When Assange went into the Ecuadorian Embassy, it was still possible for liberals to view him sympathetically, the way some liberals saw Snowden and Manning as whistle-blowers for the problems they revealed within the national security state.

Mueller’s investigation assures that Assange won’t be getting much sympathy from liberals.

Nevertheless, liberals and conservatives alike should keep a careful eye on the First Amendment implications of the Assange prosecution — and hope the evidence is clear enough to convict him without chilling the freedom of the press.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...ikileaks-conspiracy-charge-could-chill-speech
It's the theft that's illegal, not the publishing of the fruits of the theft.
 
What about stealing stuff that isn't proof of government crimes? Should that be illegal?

Because surely much of the stuff that Manning stole wasn't evidence of crimes.

barfo
Much you say?

I guess she should have put the ok stuff back then.

In the time the guy has been in hiding, Manning has had her sentence commuted and is a free woman.

She was the one who actually stole the stuff. So Assange should be punished?

I don't recall seeing a video of Assange or Manning murdering unarmed civilians in Iraq.
 
Much you say?

I guess she should have put the ok stuff back then.

In the time the guy has been in hiding, Manning has had her sentence commuted and is a free woman.

She was the one who actually stole the stuff. So Assange should be punished?

I don't recall seeing a video of Assange or Manning murdering unarmed civilians in Iraq.
This, this and this.

Given the commuting of Manning’s sentence, any prosecution of Assange wouldn’t exactly make sense. Not that it would have to in our corrupt system, though.

These government elites are seeking revenge, not justice.
 
This, this and this.

Given the commuting of Manning’s sentence, any prosecution of Assange wouldn’t exactly make sense. Not that it would have to in our corrupt system, though.

These government elites are seeking revenge, not justice.
I was technically wrong. She's in jail for refusing to cooperate with them last I heard. Otherwise....
 
Not sure why the commutation of Manning's sentence should have any bearing on whether Assange should be prosecuted. Manning served several years in prison. She wasn't pardoned and certainly isn't innocent of the crime she was convicted of. The fact that she's out before Assange is "brought to justice" is presumably only because of Assange hiding out in the embassy for 7 years.

barfo
 
I have very mixed feeling and thoughts about this fellow. Man I love the guy for getting us the shit that went down.
But, I am not so sure, he also didn't do some guy in the military real harm, perhaps even get a few killed. For that, I want a hunk of his ass.
Perhaps we shall see what he actually did. If it is a little of both, then there is no way it will balance out. Bad shit can not be mitigated by good unless the difference is huge.
 
I have very mixed feeling and thoughts about this fellow. Man I love the guy for getting us the shit that went down.
But, I am not so sure, he also didn't do some guy in the military real harm, perhaps even get a few killed. For that, I want a hunk of his ass.
Perhaps we shall see what he actually did. If it is a little of both, then there is no way it will balance out. Bad shit can not be mitigated by good unless the difference is huge.
I'd say the ultimate blame falls on the corporate warlords that put our guys in harms way for decades.
 
I'd say the ultimate blame falls on the corporate warlords that put our guys in harms way for decades.

Can't argue against your logic. True it is, I have no doubt. But... When spilling the beans exacerbates the probability of harm to the guys caught in the crack, he has done no good.
I suspect he did this, but I do not know.
 
Just in case you guys didn't see the video that was originally leaked.



Full video, must watch.

 
Can't argue against your logic. True it is, I have no doubt. But... When spilling the beans exacerbates the probability of harm to the guys caught in the crack, he has done no good.
I suspect he did this, but I do not know.
Me either. The powers that be should have known right away and been able to minimize any damage.
 
Just in case you guys didn't see the video that was originally leaked.



Full video, must watch.


Arrest the news guys that showed it.

They see guys doing whatever and they think they have weapons so they beg to attack from their helicopter? Really?

I don't know why anyone in a war zone would want to carry a weapon. Do I need green font?
 
Just in case you guys didn't see the video that was originally leaked.



Full video, must watch.


Was this video stolen? And if so, did Assange have anything to do with the theft?
 
Was this video stolen? And if so, did Assange have anything to do with the theft?
The videos were stolen by Bradley Manning and given to Assange to publish. Assange didn’t have anything to do with the actual theft, as far as we know. The flying monkeys in our government are trying to get revenge against Assange for embarrassing them, that’s what this is all about. Once again, there are Russia conspiracies cropping up that have zero factual basis and the whole thing is basically a big fucking jerk fest that allows our government to persecute journalists who don’t tow the line.

It’s called corruption and intimidation. It’s a very effective tactic.
 
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Interesting perspective:

Not one person committing the war crimes seen in those videos had to answer to those crimes or face justice, instead we jailed the guy who released the video.

#priorities
 
The videos were stolen by Bradley Manning and given to Assange to publish. Assange didn’t have anything to do with the actual theft, as far as we know. The flying monkeys in our government are trying to get revenge against Assange for embarrassing them, that’s what this is all about. Once again, there are Russia conspiracies cropping up that have zero factual basis and the whole thing is basically a big fucking jerk fest that allows our government to persecute journalists who don’t tow the line.

It’s called corruption and intimidation. It’s a very effective tactic.
That's not the government's assertion. They are asserting that he had a necessary hand in the theft. There is nothing in their charge about the legality of publishing the information.
 
he had a necessary hand in the theft.
There is no proof of this, nor will there be. I’ll bet money right now they NEVER provide sufficient evidence of Assange “having a hand” in the theft. Most of the Dems already admitted this years ago, but of course that was before queen Hillary was embarrassed by the podesta emails wikileaks dumped. Now it’s vengeance day. Russiagate 2.0 is what this is. At this point the media can just say anything they want at the behest of their establishment masters and nobody even questions it. They just cruise right along presenting far fetched theories as facts and people gobble it right up and wait for their chance to regurgitate.
 
That's not the government's assertion. They are asserting that he had a necessary hand in the theft. There is nothing in their charge about the legality of publishing the information.
There is no proof of this, nor will there be. I’ll bet money right now they NEVER provide sufficient evidence of Assange “having a hand” in the theft. Most of the Dems already admitted this years ago, but of course that was before queen Hillary was embarrassed by the podesta emails wikileaks dumped. Now it’s vengeance day. Russiagate 2.0 is what this is. At this point the media can just say anything they want at the behest of their establishment masters and nobody even questions it. They just cruise right along presenting far fetched theories as facts and people gobble it right up and wait for their chance to regurgitate.
Oh there's proof alright otherwise the government (Justice Department) would have egg all over their faces and their not gonna have any egg on their faces. Even Ecuador's president said Assange was a hacker. Nope, Assange is going to trial and will be convicted and will do significant time in prison for his crime.

"The indictment includes one count of conspiracy to hack a computer to disclose classified information that “could be used to injure” the U.S. According to the indictment, Assange “conspired” with Manning by helping her crack a Defense Department computer password in March 2010 that provided access to a U.S. government network that stored classified information and communications."

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/the-charges-against-julian-assange-explained
 
Just in case you guys didn't see the video that was originally leaked.



Full video, must watch.


Can’t watch. Members of the military still cannot touch Wikileaks. Any transmission or download of classified information to a non-secured device (in this case, my phone or computer) is contributing to further spillage and is illegal.
 
Oh there's proof alright otherwise the government (Justice Department) would have egg all over their faces and their not gonna have any egg on their faces. Even Ecuador's president said Assange was a hacker. Nope, Assange is going to trial and will be convicted and will do significant time in prison for his crime.

"The indictment includes one count of conspiracy to hack a computer to disclose classified information that “could be used to injure” the U.S. According to the indictment, Assange “conspired” with Manning by helping her crack a Defense Department computer password in March 2010 that provided access to a U.S. government network that stored classified information and communications."

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/the-charges-against-julian-assange-explained
I have no doubt he’s going to trial and going to get convicted. Shit, they’ll probably hang him. They tortured Manning. The justice department and all these cronies you seem to think very highly of will get their way, you’ll get no disagreement from me there.

Still waiting on the Nintendo pilots in the video to get their day in court for murdering all those innocent people. When do you think the justice department will get on that? Lol. We all know the answer to that one.
 
Can’t watch. Members of the military still cannot touch Wikileaks. Any transmission or download of classified information to a non-secured device (in this case, my phone or computer) is contributing to further spillage and is illegal.
It may be illegal for you or I but apparently it's not illegal for the press to spill it. It's only illegal for the press to obtain it by theft.
Me? Without a gun to my head or to the head of a loved one, I would not spill it for all the tea in China and then if it would cost the lives of others I probably would still not spill it.
 
I have no doubt he’s going to trial and going to get convicted. Shit, they’ll probably hang him. They tortured Manning. The justice department and all these cronies you seem to think very highly of will get their way, you’ll get no disagreement from me there.

Still waiting on the Nintendo pilots in the video to get their day in court for murdering all those innocent people. When do you think the justice department will get on that. Lol.
Wait a minute, the Justice Department is headed by a guy I can't stand. You need to ask me before you assume I believe one way or another.
 
Can’t watch. Members of the military still cannot touch Wikileaks. Any transmission or download of classified information to a non-secured device (in this case, my phone or computer) is contributing to further spillage and is illegal.

Seems a bit of an overreaction.

barfo
 
Still waiting on the Nintendo pilots in the video to get their day in court for murdering all those innocent people. When do you think the justice department will get on that? Lol. We all know the answer to that one.

Brian would know better than me, but I'd think that would be the job of the military courts, not the justice dept.

barfo
 
Wait a minute, the Justice Department is headed by a guy I can't stand. You need to ask me before you assume I believe one way or another.
Or I could just read your posts.
 
I have no doubt he’s going to trial and going to get convicted. Shit, they’ll probably hang him. They tortured Manning. The justice department and all these cronies you seem to think very highly of will get their way, you’ll get no disagreement from me there.

Still waiting on the Nintendo pilots in the video to get their day in court for murdering all those innocent people. When do you think the justice department will get on that? Lol. We all know the answer to that one.
Hey! There's some dudes in a van trying to help a dying guy laying in the road!!!

Kill those mother fuckers!!!

Hey, we shot a little girl in the van.

Shouldn't have brought a kid to a battle!!!!!!
 

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