The Book of Mormon (the book, not the musical)

[D-Rock]

That's where faith comes into play, you can't really prove something that happened thousands of years ago. If Joseph Smith lived in 1000 BC chances are we'd know little to nothing about him, and Mormonism would likely have never taken off. There's not a ton of information about the books of the Bible but there are findings that back its authenticity. The dead sea scrolls which were found in 1946 (I believe) are huge and confirm that the Bible has not been altered since the Jesus event. Christians before then were heavily scrutinized for changing the scriptures to make them appear to be prophecies for Jesus, because they were SO accurate and telling. But that is not the case. A lot of people don't believe the bible because of the reasons you stated, but after studying it and doing research on it's historicity I believe it to be the inspired Word of God. Not to mention it changed my life

Interesting assumption. I do agree with you though, but probably not for the reasons you think. The reformation didn't even happen until about 500 years ago, so it's pretty likely no faith would have survived 1000 years ago. Also, the religious freedom found only in America at that time was probably pretty important too. You might find it interesting that there was more than a passing attempt to snuff out Mormonism when it first started. In fact, it was almost a given at the time that if Joseph Smith was killed that the church would dissolve. I guess "Something" held the church together as it faced further mob attacks and treking across the Americas only to settle in some of the crapiest land in America.

 

[The Sebastian Express]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_War_(1838)

Like this?

 

[D-Rock]

I totally support the positive impacts that the Bible, the book of Mormon, and other holy books around the world can have on their believers -- there's is certainly no denying the fact that for many, personal religious experiences have been life-saving events.

I suspect that what you mean by "authenticity" may be different than what I and others mean, however. I believe that the Old Testament books have been relatively unaltered since Jesus' lifetime. However, the gospels themselves were not formally written and compiled for DECADES after the reported birth and death of Jesus. I don't know about you, but I have trouble believing some eyewitness accounts of amazing events even mere days after they were supposed to have happened. In the case of the gospel stories, some of them had been discussed and passed around by early Christians for up to 70 years after Jesus' death before being formally written down. 70 years! Even the earliest estimates of 20-30 years after Jesus' death is too much for me to swallow -- these aren't unbiased observations taken down immediately by eyewitnesses; they are collections of oral tradition passed around by believers that were later formally written and selected for inclusion in the New Testament.

Again, none of this is evidence that they are false -- it's simply an explanation of why I can't accept them as more factually compelling than any other religious text.

This is exactly where I have a hard time with people referring to the Bible as the "infallible word of God." It's construction alone screams that there were alterations or omissions in its assembly; be they intentional or accidental. Everyone here knows that bible literally means "collection of books," right? This wasn't a one shot document which each part having the exact same origin. How could it be when the record spans several thousands of years? There are bound to be errors in the translation alone since Hebrew and Greek don't seamlessly translate into English. Do I believe God had His hand in its creation? Of course. Do I think God monitors and dictates ever little thing we do? No way. We wouldn't have the precious gift of agency. I place more weight on what God is currently saying than what he said thousands of years ago to people that lived completely different lives. The basic principles remain the same from that period of time, but it's nice to have current revelation that helps me avoid the pitfalls of today instead of worrying about whether I should hook an ox and an ass up to the same yoke.

 

[D-Rock]

Hey D, you a mormon? Was it true that the principle of LSD was founded by the golden tabs found by John Smith?

Yes, I'm Mormon. I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you actually asking about LSD (the drug) or do you mean LDS (Latter-day Saints)? And if you meant LDS, I'm still not sure what you're asking.

 

[TripTango]

Being someone who believes the Bible to be the inspired Word of God, I don't put a lot of stock in time passing between the events of Jesus' life and the accounts of the Gospels. Call me biased, but I take the Bible as a whole and I believe that it as an entirety was inspired by God.

And this is the fundamental difference between us -- you have already accepted the truth and wholeness of the Bible as a divinely inspired document, whereas I see it as a rich, culturally important collection of historical fiction.

The many so-called fulfilled prophecies are meaningful only if you have already accepted the gospels as truth. From an objective standpoint, every single prophecy in the OT was well-known to all of Jesus' followers -- obviously they are going to have a vested interest in passing on stories showing that Jesus fulfilled them. I don't mean to imply that they were deliberately devious, only that stories spread under even the best of circumstances. Rumors and hearsay are problems even today, with photographs and eyewitnesses galore. I don't believe that humans were any better at filtering fact from fiction 2000 years ago.

Again, every religion in the world, the large and the small, has verified miracles, fulfilled prophecies, and/or secret decoder rings "proving" that their version of god is the correct one. And every religion has a website somewhere with a bullet-point checklist explaining why all the other religions are flawed somehow... I don't question your (or anyone's) spiritual visions, messages, or revelations, but I do not find any of them personally convincing. Of course, if and when God chooses to knock me off of my horse, blind me, and send me a personal message explaining the error of my ways, I'll be happy to change my tune and start spreading the word.

 

[D-Rock]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_War_(1838)

Like this?

I know it's just Wikipedia, but that was an interesting read! At least what I got through of it. I know the basic history, but that added a lot of specific events and citations. Thanks.

 

[MARIS61]

It's older. Older things are better.

I never want to see what's in your refrigerator.

 

[D-Rock]

And this is the fundamental difference between us -- you have already accepted the truth and wholeness of the Bible as a divinely inspired document, whereas I see it as a rich, culturally important collection of historical fiction.

The many so-called fulfilled prophecies are meaningful only if you have already accepted the gospels as truth. From an objective standpoint, every single prophecy in the OT was well-known to all of Jesus' followers -- obviously they are going to have a vested interest in passing on stories showing that Jesus fulfilled them. I don't mean to imply that they were deliberately devious, only that stories spread under even the best of circumstances. Rumors and hearsay are problems even today, with photographs and eyewitnesses galore. I don't believe that humans were any better at filtering fact from fiction 2000 years ago.

Again, every religion in the world, the large and the small, has verified miracles, fulfilled prophecies, and/or secret decoder rings "proving" that their version of god is the correct one. And every religion has a website somewhere with a bullet-point checklist explaining why all the other religions are flawed somehow... I don't question your (or anyone's) spiritual visions, messages, or revelations, but I do not find any of them personally convincing. Of course, if and when God chooses to knock me off of my horse, blind me, and send me a personal message explaining the error of my ways, I'll be happy to change my tune and start spreading the word.

Seeking for a sign? You know what the Bible says about sign seekers, right?

 

[MARIS61]

Yes, I'm Mormon. I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you actually asking about LSD (the drug) or do you mean LDS (Latter-day Saints)? And if you meant LDS, I'm still not sure what you're asking.

He's Mormon all right.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Yes, I'm Mormon. I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you actually asking about LSD (the drug) or do you mean LDS (Latter-day Saints)? And if you meant LDS, I'm still not sure what you're asking.

If you have hallucinations and see lots of pretty colors when you pray you're probably a member of the Church of LSD.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

My gf grew up in a Mormon church and never wants to go back

 

[D-Rock]

My gf grew up in a Mormon church and never wants to go back

Has she ever said why she doesn't want to go back? I've heard lots of reasons. I'm curious what her's is.

 

[MadeFromDust]

The many so-called fulfilled prophecies are meaningful only if you have already accepted the gospels as truth. From an objective standpoint, every single prophecy in the OT was well-known to all of Jesus' followers -- obviously they are going to have a vested interest in passing on stories showing that Jesus fulfilled them. I don't mean to imply that they were deliberately devious, only that stories spread under even the best of circumstances. Rumors and hearsay are problems even today, with photographs and eyewitnesses galore. I don't believe that humans were any better at filtering fact from fiction 2000 years ago.

Like I said, there was a creed they established within three years of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. It would be awfully hard to fool millions of people with something that has no truth to it, imo. I also don't get what their motive would be. All of Jesus' disciples and the apostles were martyred for adhering to Christianity. This went on for the first 300 years of Christianities existence, you would be heavily persecuted by Jewish leaders and Roman authorities, or even killed/martyred. I just don't see what the motive would be to spread something you KNEW to be a lie. I mean what else can you say? The apostles literally dedicated the rest of their lives to spreading what they saw and heard, even through heavy persecution. "For if Christ is not raised, your faith is in vain."

"Again, every religion in the world, the large and the small, has verified miracles, fulfilled prophecies, and/or secret decoder rings "proving" that their version of god is the correct one."
I know of no other religion that has fulfilled prophecies, let alone even close to the number of the Bible has.

I'm not aware of any other religion that has fulfilled prophecies, let alone close to what the Bible can boast:

Unique among all books ever written, the Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail-many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur. Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors. (The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.) Since the probability for any one of these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively) and since the prophecies are for the most part independent of one another, the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 102000 (that is 1 with 2000 zeros written after it)!

http://www.reasons.org/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-reliability-bible

No other book comes close to what the Bible proclaims. It was written over 1,600 years in 3 different continents in 3 different languages by some 40 different authors, and is flawless. Don't believe me? Read it for yourself, don't go on what others write about it. You won't find many honest opinions regarding the Bible on the net, especially if you go looking for out-of-context "contradictions" like some like to do.

And every religion has a website somewhere with a bullet-point checklist explaining why all the other religions are flawed somehow... I don't question your (or anyone's) spiritual visions, messages, or revelations, but I do not find any of them personally convincing. Of course, if and when God chooses to knock me off of my horse, blind me, and send me a personal message explaining the error of my ways, I'll be happy to change my tune and start spreading the word.

If you are interested in seeking out God then there are very easy ways to go about it. http://www.ehow.com/how_5193933_seek-god-whole-heart.html

Ask God to reveal Himself to you, be patient and wait, and see what happens.

 

[MARIS61]

The Bible is attested to by history, prophecies, archaeology, historians, and the historical Jesus event.

Links? (Not for the prophecies, because hot air is hot air.)

But in what credible historical record does God, Jesus, Virgin Mary and company appear?

What archeological finds have proven their existence?

 

[MadeFromDust]

D-Rock, what was the second lie Satan told Eve in the garden of Eden?

 

[MARIS61]

You won't find many honest opinions regarding the Bible on the net, especially if you go looking for out-of-context "contradictions" like some like to do.

Your definition of "honest opinion" seems to be "one that agrees with me".

 

[MadeFromDust]

Links? (Not for the prophecies, because hot air is hot air.)

But in what credible historical record does God, Jesus, Virgin Mary and company appear?

What archeological finds have proven their existence?

Where has there been an archaeological discovery that has contradicted what was written in the Bible? I've never seen on and all the ones I have seen only support what is written in the scriptures.

http://biblicalstudies.info/top10/schoville.htm

http://www.ehow.com/info_8311514_biblical-archeological-discoveries.html

 

[KingSpeed]

This is exactly where I have a hard time with people referring to the Bible as the "infallible word of God." It's construction alone screams that there were alterations or omissions in its assembly; be they intentional or accidental. Everyone here knows that bible literally means "collection of books," right? This wasn't a one shot document which each part having the exact same origin. How could it be when the record spans several thousands of years? There are bound to be errors in the translation alone since Hebrew and Greek don't seamlessly translate into English. Do I believe God had His hand in its creation? Of course. Do I think God monitors and dictates ever little thing we do? No way. We wouldn't have the precious gift of agency. I place more weight on what God is currently saying than what he said thousands of years ago to people that lived completely different lives. The basic principles remain the same from that period of time, but it's nice to have current revelation that helps me avoid the pitfalls of today instead of worrying about whether I should hook an ox and an ass up to the same yoke.

Are you listening, ABM?

 

[D-Rock]

D-Rock, what was the second lie Satan told Eve in the garden of Eden?

I haven't been taught that there's a specific number to them, so I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm not trying to play dumb, I'm not sure what you're asking. Is there a specific statement you want me to explain, or did I say something that prompted that question? I assume you're referring to this passage:

Genesis 3:2-5

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Am I interpreting you correctly in that you're saying that Satan lied twice here? Once when he said Eve wouldn't die and again when he said that when Eve partook of the fruit, that her eyes would be opened and be as a god, knowing good and evil? Obviously the first statement is a lie, but I fail to see how the second is. Partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge did open her eyes and cause her to know good and evil as God does. Before partaking, we;re told Adam and Eve were innocent as children and incapable of knowing right from wrong. Furthermore, its a lowercase g and a plural, so if you're implying that Satan told Eve that she would be a God by partaking of the fruit, then you're interpretation is doesn't seem to make sense. Also, Satan doesn't only speak in lies, I don't automatically dismiss the statement as false simply because it came from Satan. He'll say whatever it takes to get you to do whatever it is he wants you to do.

I'm just spit-balling here though, because I really don't know what you're asking.

 

[MARIS61]

Where has there been an archaeological discovery that has contradicted what was written in the Bible? I've never seen on and all the ones I have seen only support what is written in the scriptures.

http://biblicalstudies.info/top10/schoville.htm

http://www.ehow.com/info_8311514_biblical-archeological-discoveries.html

That a book of fiction should use names of real cities and leaders is as old a device as writing itself.

Your links, desperate as they may be, offer no compelling evidence of anything.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

My gf grew up in a Mormon church and never wants to go back

she believes they are really judgemental, and make you feel really guilty. She thinks the whole religion instills guilt and fear into you. She thinks her former church members think they are better than everyone. She likes christian churches more ( I meant Wesleyan, sorry was half paying attention to the blazer game)

 

[TripTango]

Seeking for a sign? You know what the Bible says about sign seekers, right?

Of course. And you know what I think about what the Bible says, right?

Even Jesus' best bud Thomas needed a sign. Word on the street was that they worked things out in the end.

 

[D-Rock]

Are you listening, ABM?

Ha! ABM and I have had a similar discussion in another thread. I think it was one of the Romney ones. I believe we respectfully agreed to disagree. I didn't mean my comments to ignite issues (although my remarks did kind of come across as flippant), I just have strong feelings on the matter. I'm sure it stems from the fact that I believe the Bible isn't the only word of God and that I believe God still has a prophet on the earth and still provides us with instruction in our day. Just because we have the Bible doesn't mean God has left us to our own devices to interpret it. That's like a teacher handing you a textbook and saying, "Here you go! You're on your own now. Good luck!"

 

[MARIS61]

Everyone here knows that bible literally means "collection of books," right?

Much like the Aesopica, written by a slave in Greece between 620 and 560 BCE.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

What Joseph Smith did is exactly how L. Ron Hubbard started Scientology.

To a T!

 

[D-Rock]

she believes they are really judgemental, and make you feel really guilty. She thinks the whole religion instills guilt and fear into you. She thinks her former church members think they are better than everyone. She likes christian churches more

I'm sorry to hear that. I can appreciate that though. There is certainly a tendency for some to be judgmental and "holier than thou," but that is an issue with individuals and not the gospel being taught. The religion most certainly does not instill guilt and fear, however. I respectfully submit that she didn't understand the faith if that is her opinion. I had a good chuckle at the bolded section.

 

[D-Rock]

Of course. And you know what I think about what the Bible says, right?

Even Jesus' best bud Thomas needed a sign. Word on the street was that they worked things out in the end.

Ha ha!

 

[D-Rock]

What Joseph Smith did is exactly how L. Ron Hubbard started Scientology.

To a T!

I'm not familiar with the beginnings of Scientology, but I can say that Joseph did it first!

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

I'm sorry to hear that. I can appreciate that though. There is certainly a tendency for some to be judgmental and "holier than thou," but that is an issue with individuals and not the gospel being taught. The religion most certainly does not instill guilt and fear, however. I respectfully submit that she didn't understand the faith if that is her opinion. I had a good chuckle at the bolded section.

Well she also gets a kick out of stories regarding joseph smith....I guess you can say she believes wesleyan ideology more than mormonism.

I agree that most churches can be that way, I've been to multiple baptist and wesleyan churches like that.

 

[TripTango]

No other book comes close to what the Bible proclaims. It was written over 1,600 years in 3 different continents in 3 different languages by some 40 different authors, and is flawless. Don't believe me? Read it for yourself, don't go on what others write about it.

To paraphrase Pollyanna, if you look hard enough for something, you are sure to find it.

And just in case it wasn't clear already, I've done quite a bit of biblical study on my own, including a fairly thorough reading of both testaments. Please believe me when I say I respect your views on the matter of their veracity, but I cannot share them.