The Book of Mormon (the book, not the musical)

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I would ask anyone who believes the Bible but not the Book of Mormon to explain these last 2 verses from Chapter 21 in the Gospel of John.

24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Not only does this speak to the Book of Mormon but other records as well. In the Book of Mormon Christ says that he has other people to visit as commanded by the Father. We believe more records are yet to be revealed.
 
JETBlack said:
Hey D-Rock, you have at least one brother in the Gospel in here. You've been doing a great job explaining our faith. Even I haven't seen some of this stuff before. Keep up the good work sir.
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Thanks, JET. In the mouth of two or three witnesses, huh? :)
 
please clear some things up for me jet or drock

so earths god is a human from the star system of kolob correct?

and there are countless planets being ruled by other gods correct?

and jesus is only applicable to earth? because he is the kolob guys son right? and satan was his other son?

and kolob god fucked his countless wives in outer space to populate the earth?

can women be gods?
 
3RA1N1AC said:
please clear some things up for me jet or drock

so earths god is a human from the star system of kolob correct?

and there are countless planets being ruled by other gods correct?

and jesus is only applicable to earth? because he is the kolob guys son right? and satan was his other son?

and kolob god fucked his countless wives in outer space to populate the earth?

can women be gods?
Click to expand...

I'll answer these with what I know, but not right now. I'm busy at the moment. Honestly, these concepts are talked about WAY more among non-Mormons than Mormons. These are things spoken of a handful of times in the early days of the church and have been used as propaganda against the church as being core tenants of the church when they're mostly just speculation. Like I said, I'll say more when I have some more time.
 
What the heck is a "god"? Do Mormons really believe they are going to become "gods". I'm aware of one.

Isaiah 45

1 “Thus says the LORD to His anointed,
To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held—
To subdue nations before him
And loose the armor of kings,
To open before him the double doors,
So that the gates will not be shut:
2 ‘ I will go before you
And make the crooked places[a] straight;
I will break in pieces the gates of bronze
And cut the bars of iron.
3 I will give you the treasures of darkness
And hidden riches of secret places,
That you may know that I, the LORD,
Who call you by your name,
Am the God of Israel.
4 For Jacob My servant’s sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.
5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
I will gird you, though you have not known Me,
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other;
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the LORD, do all these things.’
8 “ Rain down, you heavens, from above,
And let the skies pour down righteousness;
Let the earth open, let them bring forth salvation,
And let righteousness spring up together.
I, the LORD, have created it.
9 “ Woe to him who strives with his Maker!
Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth!
Shall the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’
Or shall your handiwork say, ‘He has no hands’?
10 Woe to him who says to his father, ‘What are you begetting?’
Or to the woman, ‘What have you brought forth?’”
11 Thus says the LORD,
The Holy One of Israel, and his Maker:

“ Ask Me of things to come concerning My sons;
And concerning the work of My hands, you command Me.
12 I have made the earth,
And created man on it.
I—My hands—stretched out the heavens,
And all their host I have commanded.
13 I have raised him up in righteousness,
And I will direct all his ways;
He shall build My city
And let My exiles go free,
Not for price nor reward,”
Says the LORD of hosts.
The LORD, the Only Savior


14 Thus says the Lord GOD:


“ The labor of Egypt and merchandise of Cush
And of the Sabeans, men of stature,
Shall come over to you, and they shall be yours;
They shall walk behind you,
They shall come over in chains;
And they shall bow down to you.
They will make supplication to you, saying, ‘Surely God is in you,
And there is no other;
There is no other God.'
15 Truly You are God, who hides Yourself,
O God of Israel, the Savior!
16 They shall be ashamed
And also disgraced, all of them;
They shall go in confusion together,
Who are makers of idols.
17 But Israel shall be saved by the LORD
With an everlasting salvation;
You shall not be ashamed or disgraced
Forever and ever.
18 For thus says the LORD,
Who created the heavens,
Who is God,
Who formed the earth and made it,
Who has established it,
Who did not create it in vain,
Who formed it to be inhabited:

“ I am the LORD, and there is no other.
19 I have not spoken in secret,
In a dark place of the earth;
I did not say to the seed of Jacob,

‘ Seek Me in vain’;
I, the LORD, speak righteousness,
I declare things that are right.
20 “ Assemble yourselves and come;
Draw near together,
You who have escaped from the nations.
They have no knowledge,
Who carry the wood of their carved image,
And pray to a god that cannot save.
21 Tell and bring forth your case;
Yes, let them take counsel together.
Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time?
Have not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.
22 “ Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.
24 He shall say,

‘ Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength.
To Him men shall come,
And all shall be ashamed
Who are incensed against Him.
25 In the LORD all the descendants of Israel
Shall be justified, and shall glory.’”


Isaiah 44:6

There Is No Other God

6 “ Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:

‘ I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

Isaiah 46:9-10
New King James Version (NKJV)


9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

And there's a LOT more where that came from. This goes against everything the Bible teaches.
 
OdenRoyLMA2 said:
What the heck is a "god"? Do Mormons really believe they are going to become "gods". I'm aware of one.

Isaiah 45

1 “Thus says the LORD to His anointed,
To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held—
To subdue nations before him
And loose the armor of kings,
To open before him the double doors,
So that the gates will not be shut:
2 ‘ I will go before you
And make the crooked places[a] straight;
I will break in pieces the gates of bronze
And cut the bars of iron.
3 I will give you the treasures of darkness
And hidden riches of secret places,
That you may know that I, the LORD,
Who call you by your name,
Am the God of Israel.
4 For Jacob My servant’s sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.
5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
I will gird you, though you have not known Me,
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other;
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the LORD, do all these things.’
8 “ Rain down, you heavens, from above,
And let the skies pour down righteousness;
Let the earth open, let them bring forth salvation,
And let righteousness spring up together.
I, the LORD, have created it.
9 “ Woe to him who strives with his Maker!
Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth!
Shall the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’
Or shall your handiwork say, ‘He has no hands’?
10 Woe to him who says to his father, ‘What are you begetting?’
Or to the woman, ‘What have you brought forth?’”
11 Thus says the LORD,
The Holy One of Israel, and his Maker:

“ Ask Me of things to come concerning My sons;
And concerning the work of My hands, you command Me.
12 I have made the earth,
And created man on it.
I—My hands—stretched out the heavens,
And all their host I have commanded.
13 I have raised him up in righteousness,
And I will direct all his ways;
He shall build My city
And let My exiles go free,
Not for price nor reward,”
Says the LORD of hosts.
The LORD, the Only Savior


14 Thus says the Lord GOD:


“ The labor of Egypt and merchandise of Cush
And of the Sabeans, men of stature,
Shall come over to you, and they shall be yours;
They shall walk behind you,
They shall come over in chains;
And they shall bow down to you.
They will make supplication to you, saying, ‘Surely God is in you,
And there is no other;
There is no other God.'
15 Truly You are God, who hides Yourself,
O God of Israel, the Savior!
16 They shall be ashamed
And also disgraced, all of them;
They shall go in confusion together,
Who are makers of idols.
17 But Israel shall be saved by the LORD
With an everlasting salvation;
You shall not be ashamed or disgraced
Forever and ever.
18 For thus says the LORD,
Who created the heavens,
Who is God,
Who formed the earth and made it,
Who has established it,
Who did not create it in vain,
Who formed it to be inhabited:

“ I am the LORD, and there is no other.
19 I have not spoken in secret,
In a dark place of the earth;
I did not say to the seed of Jacob,

‘ Seek Me in vain’;
I, the LORD, speak righteousness,
I declare things that are right.
20 “ Assemble yourselves and come;
Draw near together,
You who have escaped from the nations.
They have no knowledge,
Who carry the wood of their carved image,
And pray to a god that cannot save.
21 Tell and bring forth your case;
Yes, let them take counsel together.
Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time?
Have not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.
22 “ Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.
24 He shall say,

‘ Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength.
To Him men shall come,
And all shall be ashamed
Who are incensed against Him.
25 In the LORD all the descendants of Israel
Shall be justified, and shall glory.’”


Isaiah 44:6

There Is No Other God

6 “ Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:

‘ I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

Isaiah 46:9-10
New King James Version (NKJV)


9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

And there's a LOT more where that came from. This goes against everything the Bible teaches.
Click to expand...

Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
None has ever caught him yet, for Tom, he is the master:
His songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster.

Tom Bombadil
The Lord of the Rings
 
So MARIS, allow me to challenge your beliefs a bit. What exactly do you believe in? Nothing?
 
The Golden Rule, Nature, karma, evolution, birth, life, love, happiness, procreation, individual freedoms, self-defense, subsistence fishing/hunting/farming, death, and an infinite universe that always was and always will be.

Just off the top of my head.

And the Blazers.
 
MARIS61 said:
The Golden Rule, Nature, karma, evolution, birth, life, love, happiness, procreation, individual freedoms, self-defense, subsistence fishing/hunting/farming, death, and an infinite universe that always was and always will be.
Click to expand...

one of these things is not like the others...
 
MARIS61 said:
karma
Click to expand...

I don't understand how karma can exist in a true sense in a naturalistic worldview. Explain?
evolution
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Based on what?

life
Click to expand...
Where did it come from if the universe has always been static and unchanging?

love, happiness
Click to expand...

These things can be rendered as chemical reactions in the brain, an illusion and nothing more .

and an infinite universe that always was and always will be.
Click to expand...

The universe had a beginning, the stars are running out of fuel. An infinite universe is impossible.
 
OdenRoyLMA2 said:
I don't understand how karma can exist in a true sense in a naturalistic worldview. Explain?

Not sure what you're asking but I have always lived by The Golden Rule and the dividends have been amazing!

(evolution) Based on what?

History, biology, anthropolgy, entymology, anatomy...

(life) Where did it come from if the universe has always been static and unchanging?

I never said it was static and unchanging, or either. I said just the opposite.

(love, happiness) These things can be rendered as chemical reactions in the brain, an illusion and nothing more .

I've got the real thing, sorry you don't.

The universe had a beginning, the stars are running out of fuel. An infinite universe is impossible.

Flat World Society propaganda.
Click to expand...
...
 
Last edited:
OdenRoyLMA2 said:
I don't understand how karma can exist in a true sense in a naturalistic worldview. Explain?
Click to expand...

I should also point out I said Nature, not Naturalism.

I was referring specifically to Nature on Earth, everything that is not manmade, as I have a strong connection and understanding of the perfection of it in contrast to man's flawed mutations of it.
 
MARIS61 said:
I should also point out I said Nature, not Naturalism.

I was referring specifically to Nature on Earth, everything that is not manmade, as I have a strong connection and understanding of the perfection of it in contrast to man's flawed mutations of it.
Click to expand...

I am somewhat of a naturalist except most of them believe in a universe that is limited and I do not.
 
TripTango said:
A strong statement -- can you prove it?
Click to expand...

You're a science buff right, wasn't it basically proven back in the 1920's that the universe had a beginning? The universe is expanding and the stars are slowly dying. An infinite regress is impossible so there must be an uncaused first cause (God).
 
Not sure what you're asking but I have always lived by The Golden Rule and the dividends have been amazing!
Click to expand...

You didn't answer the question. If you don't believe in God or a higher power, or that the universe has any meaning whatsover, how can karma possibly exist?

History, biology, anthropolgy, entymology, anatomy...
Click to expand...
Still not a shred of evidence that one animal can magically "evolve" into another.


I never said it was static and unchanging, or either. I said just the opposite.
Click to expand...
You didn't answer the question. You said the universe always was and always will be, hence didn't have a beginning, hence static and unchanging. What brought about life?

I've got the real thing, sorry you don't.
Click to expand...

I never said I don't have them. They actually can exist in my worldview. To an atheist, emotions like happiness or sadness are nothing more than chemical reactions in the brain and hold no significance, and there is no such thing as "good" or "bad" without appealing to a higher authority. Can you prove me wrong?

Flat World Society propaganda.
Click to expand...

Uhhh ok...
 
MARIS61 said:
I am somewhat of a naturalist except most of them believe in a universe that is limited and I do not.
Click to expand...

So basically you believe the universe has God qualities, you just don't like to refer to it as God?
 
MARIS61 said:
I should also point out I said Nature, not Naturalism.

I was referring specifically to Nature on Earth, everything that is not manmade, as I have a strong connection and understanding of the perfection of it in contrast to man's flawed mutations of it.
Click to expand...
I have no clue what this even means.
 
OdenRoyLMA2 said:
You're a science buff right, wasn't it basically proven back in the 1920's that the universe had a beginning?
Click to expand...

That's news to me... Can you define what you mean by "beginning" here?

OdenRoyLMA2 said:
The universe is expanding and the stars are slowly dying. An infinite regress is impossible so there must be an uncaused first cause (God).
Click to expand...

The "first cause" (or cosmological) argument for god is basically just replacing one mysterious and apparently infinite entity (the universe) for another (god). There's no scientific basis for absolutely rejecting the theoretical possibility of an infinite god, but there's also no scientific basis for rejecting the possibility of an infinite universe.
 
TripTango said:
That's news to me...
Click to expand...
Interesting, I thought it was pretty common knowledge amongst the scientific community today.



The "first cause" (or cosmological) argument for god is basically just replacing one mysterious and apparently infinite entity (the universe) for another (god). There's no scientific basis for absolutely rejecting the theoretical possibility of an infinite god, but there's also no scientific basis for rejecting the possibility of an infinite universe.
Click to expand...
So what makes more sense then? Personally I think theism makes much more logical sense than atheism. Hypothetically (according to the scientific community), billions of years from now when all the stars will have burnt out and supernovae'd, what will be left? And where did it all come from? It had to have had a beginning because it's currently on a finite time scale. Something infinite cannot have finite qualities. Unless of course you want to explain how this would work.
 
OdenRoyLMA2 said:
Something infinite cannot have finite qualities. Unless of course you want to explain how this would work.
Click to expand...

I've never heard of this statement being proven or even argued from a scientific or mathematical basis, but I'd be happy to offer a simple counter-example. Take a coin, and begin tracing your finger around the line formed by its outside edge. Do not stop until you reach the clear end of this line (meaning wherever the line clearly ceases to be).

Assuming you do not pass out from hunger, you would be tracing this line forever. In other words, it's a cycle -- the distance traveled can be arbitrarily high, depending on how many times you want to go around the circle. And yet, measured across the middle of the coin, or from one fixed point on the edge to another, we can clearly discern finite distances: radius, circumference, etc...
 
TripTango said:
I've never heard of this statement being proven or even argued from a scientific or mathematical basis, but I'd be happy to offer a simple counter-example. Take a coin, and begin tracing your finger around the line formed by its outside edge. Do not stop until you reach the clear end of this line (meaning wherever the line clearly ceases to be).

Assuming you do not pass out from hunger, you would be tracing this line forever. In other words, it's a cycle -- the distance traveled can be arbitrarily high, depending on how many times you want to go around the circle. And yet, measured across the middle of the coin, or from one fixed point on the edge to another, we can clearly discern finite distances: radius, circumference, etc...
Click to expand...
I don't see how this counters the argument I've put forth. Something HAS to be eternal, we've pretty much settled that. Something cannot come from nothing, and if you were to believe that it would require a lot more faith than believing in God. Whether it's God or the matter that caused the big bang, something always existed. The universe shows signs of being on a finite time-scale, meaning that it was set into motion at some point. The stars and galaxies had a beginning because if they didn't they would have no end. They would have died an infinitely long time ago. Do you see what I'm saying? So ask yourself what the most logical conclusion is: a powerful, eternal, personal being who chose to create the universe, or dead matter that set itself into motion by completely sourceless and forever unexplainable causes. And if you go with the latter, I have a whole new set of questions I'd like to ask you.

(Also, God's infinite nature is hard to grasp. We too are on a finite time scale, we are all about beginnings and ends. And we are bound to time, whereas God is not. We simply cannot comprehend His divine nature, we don't have that capacity.
 
OdenRoyLMA2 said:
I don't see how this counters the argument I've put forth. Something HAS to be eternal, we've pretty much settled that. Something cannot come from nothing, and if you were to believe that it would require a lot more faith than believing in God. Whether it's God or the matter that caused the big bang, something always existed. The universe shows signs of being on a finite time-scale, meaning that it was set into motion at some point. The stars and galaxies had a beginning because if they didn't they would have no end. They would have died an infinitely long time ago. Do you see what I'm saying? So ask yourself what the most logical conclusion is: a powerful, eternal, personal being who chose to create the universe, or dead matter that set itself into motion by completely sourceless and forever unexplainable causes. And if you go with the latter, I have a whole new set of questions I'd like to ask you.

(Also, God's infinite nature is hard to grasp. We too are on a finite time scale, we are all about beginnings and ends. And we are bound to time, whereas God is not. We simply cannot comprehend His divine nature, we don't have that capacity.
Click to expand...

You make several big assumptions about time, beginnings, and the nature of infinity that I do not agree with, but it is past my finite bedtime. :)

Let me close with this: the universe's infinite nature is hard to grasp. Our entire lives take place within what seems to be a finite time scale, and we are all about beginnings and ends. And we are bound to the concept of a steady, consistent passage time, which may not be consistent with the origins of the universe. We simply cannot easily comprehend an event so outside of our frame of reference -- we don't have that capacity.
 
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then. I'm simply wired to think this way, and when you combine what I've said with the complexity of life and the human body and the faith it takes to believe that it all arose from a pile of goo, and that a Godless universe has no objective way to determine moral values of right and wrong, it's a slam dunk to me. No to mention that God has changed my life in a big way. But I guess that's what makes us human, we all think differently.
 
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