The Book of Mormon (the book, not the musical)

[3RA1N1AC]

So I don't think it's matter of being ashamed, I think it's probably a combination of not knowing the answer to the types of questions you're asking because we really don't even discuss those things...

i find this incredibly hard to believe...arent "those things" sort of the entire premise for your religion?

like..."our god, the one true god, used to be a man like you and me. he lived on a planet in the star system of kolob. he had a million wives, and made love with all of them to create all of our souls here on earth. then he came to earth and made love with mary, and she bore jesus, who died for our sins. and if you live a virtuous life, then someday you can be a god of your OWN planet"

wouldnt that be like the first day in sunday school? and after awhile, THEN you can learn all the secret stuff?

 

[D-Rock]

i asked these months ago and not even a sniff from either you or drock...

1. so earths god is a human from the star system of kolob correct?

2. and there are countless planets being ruled by other gods correct?

3. and jesus is only applicable to earth? because he is the kolob guys son right? and satan was his other son?

4. kolob guy fucked mary with his actual penis?

5. and kolob god fucked his countless wives with his actual penis in outer space to populate the earth?

I'll attempt to answer the rest of these with what I know. A lot of what I'll say is just my understanding of these topics. I'll try to differentiate between official church doctrine and my personal speculation. If I don't do a good job of that, hopefully it will be obvious enough by my prose which is personal opinion and speculation and what is official.

1. We believe God, Heavenly Father, once existed as a mortal and experienced life similar to what we do. What his role was is not certain. Did he play Adam's role as the first man on His Earth? Did he play the role of Savior as Christ did for us? Was he just some schmo like me? I don't know. A lot of people think this is blaspheme. I fail to see how. If God has always been my God and always will be my God, how is it blaspheme to say that he was once like I am now? Is it demeaning to say that before my existence God was once less than he is now? I've never known him to be any different, so how does that change who he is? All it does is tell me I'm more than just dust of the Earth and there's more to this existence than living and dying.

It's been said that Kolob is the star nearest to the planet where God dwells. I'd go into more detail but it would be more confusing. There's a lot of background information that if you don't know/understand/believe that will just make anymore detail confusing. Anyway, do I care if this is true or not? No, because that isn't relevant to my salvation. It's interesting stuff, but knowing whether Kolob does or doesn't exist doesn't change what I need to do to be saved. It explains more about what happens after death and what my potential is, but doesn't tell me how to reach that potential.

2. It stands to reason that if I believe that God progressed to be God and I have the potential to be a god and that God made our universe, that there would be other gods that made other universes. If I believe that anyone has the potential to be a god, then there are likely countless earth-like planets being ruled over by other gods.

3. Jesus' atonement applies to all worlds over which God (our Father and Jesus' Father) has dominion. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. Three distinct and separate beings. Jesus is God's eldest son. As I stated in another post, we are the literal spirit children of our Father in Heaven. Therefore, we are Jesus' brothers and sisters. And, yes, Satan is our brother. I don't think I've heard any other faiths attempt to explain Satan's origin, why can't this be it? Because God and Satan can't possibly be related? Cain and Abel anyone? Agency (the ability to choose) existed in the pre-mortal world. Lucifer chose to rebel. Hence the reason there was a war and Satan was driven out. (See the scripture I posted earlier Rev. 12:7-9).

4. I have no idea how Jesus was conceived. I've heard that theory before, but I couldn't say what's what. What I can say, is that is definitely not official endorsed church doctrine. As a side note, I've also heard some people believe Christ was married and had kids. That's definitely not taught anywhere, just speculation, since we're throwing out extreme ideas.

5. I'm not sure exactly how we came about as spirit beings. We do believe as I said in an earlier post that men can become gods and women can become goddesses and that the family unit exists beyond death. It would make sense that men and women would still have sex after being resurrected, but since we're now immortal beings, what kind of offspring would we have? Or would we all now be infertile? So, maybe that is how it happens. I honestly have no idea, and neither does anyone you would ask on the subject. So to state unequivocally that Mormon's believe that is false. It's speculation based on what we know/believe to be true and what seems to make sense as a natural outcome of what we know and believe.

As far as "countless wives" goes, the idea behind that is that there are more righteous women than men and every woman is entitled the blessing of a husband and children. Since we believe there should be no sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage, how else are women going to have children if men don't have more than one wife? So, is it true? Who knows? Is it something to get bent out of shape over if it is? I'm not sure why...

So there you go. I could obviously go further with each of these, but like I said, if you don't know/understand/believe other background information first, it won't make any sense to you.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

great insightful stuff

and some of what you are saying i feel really rings true to the essence of ALL religions, but it is interesting nonetheless.... when you say:

"Anyway, do I care if this is true or not? No, because that isn't relevant to my salvation. It's interesting stuff, but knowing whether Kolob does or doesn't exist doesn't change what I need to do to be saved."

it really speaks to your faith that you dont even care that it is true or not, but the important part is that you are using that faith to model yourself in your gods image, "practicing what you preach" if you will, and that is lost on alot of so called christians, so kudos to that

and drock, when you break it down like you did, it doesnt seem any kookier than any other religion, i just wanted to hear it from the horses mouth for once...americans were/are raised mainly christian, so anything different from those stories rings as false and fantastic to most people, but more power to you man, and when your a god, dont fuck my wife

 

[D-Rock]

i find this incredibly hard to believe...arent "those things" sort of the entire premise for your religion?

like..."our god, the one true god, used to be a man like you and me. he lived on a planet in the star system of kolob. he had a million wives, and made love with all of them to create all of our souls here on earth. then he came to earth and made love with mary, and she bore jesus, who died for our sins. and if you live a virtuous life, then someday you can be a god of your OWN planet"

wouldnt that be like the first day in sunday school? and after awhile, THEN you can learn all the secret stuff?

No. That isn't the premise of the religion. The premise is faith, repentance, baptism, reception of the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end so that we can have salvation --just like all the other Christian churches I can think of. Why worry about whether or not I get to create planets if I haven't even been baptized or if I'm not obeying the commandments? I'm telling you, there aren't Sunday school lessons set up to explain Kolob because Kolob isn't relevant to our salvation. That isn't the core tenants of our church. That may be a distinguishing factor from other Christian faiths, but that's not what we hold to be most important, or even very important at all. That's why we don't talk about it. I'm curious what you mean by secret stuff? Maybe that's why there's a disconnect. I consider the stuff you're asking about more secret than pretty much everything else I can think of (with a few exceptions -- which btw, I call sacred and not secret. I'm not hiding anything from anyone I'm holding it close to me because it's between me and God and no one else). I say that because, as I've said, it takes a fair amount of background information to actually understand why those things make sense to Mormon's. It's not just some giant leap from nowhere. It's based on lots of less spectacular information that is much easier to grasp and understand and maybe even agree with. A lot of people think Mormon's go too far because we go beyond what's in the Bible. Well, a great deal of that is because people think this stuff is our core beliefs when I promise you it's almost never talked about. Again, not because we're trying to hide anything, but because it has no meaning if you don't understand or believe in the core things like faith, repentance, baptism, reception of the Holy Ghost, priesthood authority and temple work.

 

[tlongII]

It appears that you don't believe in evolution. That is unfortunate.

 

[D-Rock]

great insightful stuff

and some of what you are saying i feel really rings true to the essence of ALL religions, but it is interesting nonetheless.... when you say:

"Anyway, do I care if this is true or not? No, because that isn't relevant to my salvation. It's interesting stuff, but knowing whether Kolob does or doesn't exist doesn't change what I need to do to be saved."

it really speaks to your faith that you dont even care that it is true or not, but the important part is that you are using that faith to model yourself in your gods image, "practicing what you preach" if you will, and that is lost on alot of so called christians, so kudos to that

and drock, when you break it down like you did, it doesnt seem any kookier than any other religion, i just wanted to hear it from the horses mouth for once...americans were/are raised mainly christian, so anything different from those stories rings as false and fantastic to most people, but more power to you man, and when your a god, dont fuck my wife

I think you misinterpreted what I was saying or I didn't state it very well. I was talking to my wife and eating dinner at the same time as typing that, so I it's certainly possible I wasn't thinking it through. I believe it to be true. What I'm saying is that particular bit of information whether true or not shouldn't mean much to someone outside the faith, yet people think we're blaspheming by saying such things or are crazy for saying such things. That concept is so far beyond what we need to be focusing on that it isn't something worth stressing over. Learn to understand and live the smaller things and maybe you can start stressing over things like that.

I think you're exactly right. Mormonism isn't that much different from other Christian faiths at the core. We just extend things beyond faith, repentance, baptism, and the Holy Ghost. I'm sure many would disagree though.

You don't have to worry about your wife. I'd have to be married to her to have sex with her.

 

[D-Rock]

It appears that you don't believe in evolution. That is unfortunate.

I believe man can evolve into a god. Is that not evolution on a grander scale than a few differing strands of DNA? I also believe that animals evolve and humans make physical adaptations based on their climate and living conditions, but, no, I do not believe we evolved from monkeys or some gelatinous goo that crawled out of the water.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

you damn mormon playboys! always having sex with everyones ghost wives!

 

[D-Rock]

you damn mormon playboys! always having sex with everyones ghost wives!

Hey, wouldn't you if you could?

 

[Eastoff]

No, women cannot be Gods. They can be Goddesses though. Subtle difference. There are numerous scriptures relating to the prospect of Godhood. Some just choose to interpret the passages as figurative (although I'm not entirely certain how they could be taken figuratively).

This part seems sexist to me. A woman can never be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. They can make babies, how is it that different than normal women?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

and whos to say that the heaven you get to wont be infested with men? dirty stupid stinking men?

oh and this actually has puzzled me a lil bit...

why would a mormon wife on earth be ok with sharing her husband in heaven?

 

[tlongII]

I believe man can evolve into a god. Is that not evolution on a grander scale than a few differing strands of DNA? I also believe that animals evolve and humans make physical adaptations based on their climate and living conditions, but, no, I do not believe we evolved from monkeys or some gelatinous goo that crawled out of the water.

Like I said, that is unfortunate. It is easily the most plausible theory for how we came to be and there is a plethora of scientific evidence supporting it.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

This part seems sexist to me. A woman can never be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. They can make babies, how is it that different than normal women?

i think that they are eternal and wise and all that stuff too, they just cant create earths, and clearly, a woman would do a way better job than our current clusterfuck

 

[D-Rock]

This part seems sexist to me. A woman can never be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. They can make babies, how is it that different than normal women?

My attempt at humor may have been misleading. Let me give some background information. The family is the central unit in the gospel and the family unit exists beyond the grave assuming all the proper steps are taken. Marriage in particular is important. 1 Corinthians 11:11 - "Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord." That means a man and a woman individually are incapable of reaching exaltation (God's life) without each other. They must be bound together (sealed) as one. So without my wife I could not reach my full potential, and neither could she. So my wife (my goddess) is more than baby a maker. My wife is more to me than simply a vessel to bare my children. She is my help meet and my equal in our relationship as husband and wife. Do I paint a room in my house without my wife's consideration? No. I'm pretty sure I'd take her input when deciding whether I want spiders in the world I create. As a goddess, she would be elevated to the same degree I would be. I'm still being a little light hearted here, but maybe I've explained it a little better.

 

[Eastoff]

My attempt at humor may have been misleading. Let me give some background information. The family is the central unit in the gospel and the family unit exists beyond the grave assuming all the proper steps are taken. Marriage in particular is important. 1 Corinthians 11:11 - "Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord." That means a man and a woman individually are incapable of reaching exaltation (God's life) without each other. They must be bound together (sealed) as one. So without my wife I could not reach my full potential, and neither could she. So my wife (my goddess) is more than baby a maker. My wife is more to me than simply a vessel to bare my children. She is my help meet and my equal in our relationship as husband and wife. Do I paint a room in my house without my wife's consideration? No. I'm pretty sure I'd take her input when deciding whether I want spiders in the world I create. As a goddess, she would be elevated to the same degree I would be. I'm still being a little light hearted here, but maybe I've explained it a little better.

So why doesn't Jesus have a wife? By your description, it seems like we're getting short changed or something.

 

[D-Rock]

and whos to say that the heaven you get to wont be infested with men? dirty stupid stinking men?

oh and this actually has puzzled me a lil bit...

why would a mormon wife on earth be ok with sharing her husband in heaven?

I've wondered the same thing. Maybe because the work can be spread out more? I don't think I'd want more than one wife. Isn't one hard enough sometimes? In all seriousness, I honestly don't know what the makeup will be. That idea comes from the following passage: 2 Nephi 14:1 - "And in that day, seven women shall take hold of one man, saying: We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel; only let us be called by thy name to take away our reproach." Reproach meaning, their inability to have children.

 

[D-Rock]

So why doesn't Jesus have a wife? By your description, it seems like we're getting short changed or something.

He doesn't? See it's these types of things that get Mormon's into trouble with other people. For everything we believe, it makes sense that Jesus would be married, yet there's no documented evidence that he is. The idea that he is isn't defeated by this. We believe that people can still be married after the resurrection, so hypothetically, even if Christ wasn't married while a mortal he still could get married at some point. I'm not saying he is, and I'm definitely not saying the Mormon church says he is, just that it appears from what I believe that he is or most likely will be at some point...

 

[Eastoff]

He doesn't? See it's these types of things that get Mormon's into trouble with other people. For everything we believe, it makes sense that Jesus would be married, yet there's no documented evidence that he is. The idea that he is isn't defeated by this. We believe that people can still be married after the resurrection, so hypothetically, even if Christ wasn't married while a mortal he still could get married at some point. I'm not saying he is, and I'm definitely not saying the Mormon church says he is, just that it appears from what I believe that he is or most likely will be at some point.

Okay, I think the commonly held christian belief is that Jesus is/was not married. I know proper Catholics DEFINITELY do not think he ever married.

 

[D-Rock]

Okay, I think the commonly held christian belief is that Jesus is/was not married. I know proper Catholics DEFINITELY do not think he ever married.

And I agree with you. I doubt he was married while a mortal. And yes, I'm pretty sure Catholics DEFINITELY do not think he ever married. The whole celibacy thing tends to strike in the face of Christ being married. We obviously disagree with the Catholics on the celibacy thing.