the Burqa banned in Holland

[deception]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">In Holland, policies associated with the nationalist fringe in 2002 have been co-opted by the center: holding asylum-seekers in detention centers, more muscle for the police and intelligence services, and visa examinations that require would-be immigrants to watch videos of homosexuals kissing and of topless women on the beach. Everyone must learn to speak Dutch, and Muslim clerics must mind what they say in their Friday sermons for fear of deportation.

Slaying triggered Dutch debate
The issue was given added urgency with the 2004 slaying of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh by a Muslim fanatic and the failed attempt to expel a Somali-born critic of Islam of her Dutch citizenship.

About 1 million Muslims live in the Netherlands, about 6 percent of the population of 16 million, but only a few hundred are believed to regularly wear a burqa.

After France banned the wearing of head scarves in public schools, the Dutch government decided to leave that question up to individual schools. Most allow head scarves.

The city of Utrecht has cut some welfare benefits to unemployed women who insist on wearing burqas to job interviews. The city claimed the women were using the burqa to avoid working, since they knew they would not be hired.</div>

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15766750/

 

[Chuck]

Good. Women do not need to be kept in beekeeper suits. It's sexist.

 

[Chutney]

Try asking muslim women if it is.

 

[deception]

<div class="quote_poster">Chuck Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Good. Women do not need to be kept in beekeeper suits. It's sexist.</div>

funny and ignorant at the same time. i think if u asked a muslim feminist- she would tell u the hijab is empowering cause it means you don't have to conform to female archetypes of what she ought to look like (i.e. no pressure to be a size 6)

<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Try asking muslim women if it is.</div>

the problem i have is that not all hijab wearing women are informed. i think most do it purely out of pressure or some kind of inclination to be subversive (e.g. screw the MAN by wearing a hijab)

 

[Chutney]

I agree and I generalized simply to refute the previous post. I think we can all agree, though, that this move has absolutely nothing to do with feminism or equal rights.

 

[deception]

<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I agree and I generalized simply to refute the previous post. I think we can all agree, though, that this move has absolutely nothing to do with feminism or equal rights.</div>

u referring to the move by the dutch?

 

[Chutney]

Yea. And the one by the French. They just don't want to deal with the divisions created by multiculturalism.

 

[deception]

<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Yea. And the one by the French. They just don't want to deal with the divisions created by multiculturalism.</div>

honestly its more than the complicated than that. i'm not taking sides but i strongly feel both sides have to make concessions. for example: france has a legacy of secularism, well the algerians and moroccons who emigrate there should have probably know that beforehand. the dutch on the other hand have this strong anti-immigration fervour, which frankly is bewildering considering their tolerance for everything else.

 

[Chuck]

<div class="quote_poster">deception Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">funny and ignorant at the same time. i think if u asked a muslim feminist- she would tell u the hijab is empowering cause it means you don't have to conform to female archetypes of what she ought to look like (i.e. no pressure to be a size 6)

</div>

Let's not get so tolerant to the point where we tolerate other people's intolerances.

I find it hilarious that you call me ignorant. Do you happen to own a Qur'an, by the way, or know anything about Islam? I can answer yes to both of those. What you exhibit is ignorance.

Better yet, have you even SPOKEN to a Muslim woman? There are LOTS of them who feel the exact same way I do, and feel that their devotion to Allah has no relation to the clothing they wear.

 

[deception]

<div class="quote_poster">Chuck Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Let's not get so tolerant to the point where we tolerate other people's intolerances.

I find it hilarious that you call me ignorant. Do you happen to own a Qur'an, by the way, or know anything about Islam? I can answer yes to both of those. What you exhibit is ignorance.

Better yet, have you even SPOKEN to a Muslim woman? There are LOTS of them who feel the exact same way I do, and feel that their devotion to Allah has no relation to the clothing they wear.</div>

don't own a quran and don't believe in this GOD guy either. although, aside from them being muslim, they are also human beings, who are extended rights and they have the right to observe their faith. and fyi-u can't run roughshod over rights.

 

[Chutney]

There needs to be a distinction made between what the burqa's meant for and what its implemented as. I know several Muslim girls who wear it and feel that it empowers them/allows them to ignore societal pressures. One even came from a family that didn't wear it, but she chose to willingly. On the other hand, it is often used to further sexist beliefs and intolerance. And I know other Muslim women who feel that the fact that they are singled out for that this "protection" is an insult. You could make a good case for either side and, ultimately, you have to consider each specific case of the burqa as unique.

Its a complicated and interesting issue to discuss, but it really doesn't have much relevance to this story. The Dutch aren't banning it for what it stands for, but for what it creates (cultural divisions, pluralism).

 

[Chuck]

<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">There needs to be a distinction made between what the burqa's meant for and what its implemented as. I know several Muslim girls who wear it and feel that it empowers them/allows them to ignore societal pressures. One even came from a family that didn't wear it, but she chose to willingly. On the other hand, it is often used to further sexist beliefs and intolerance. And I know other Muslim women who feel that the fact that they are singled out for that this "protection" is an insult. You could make a good case for either side and, ultimately, you have to consider each specific case of the burqa as unique.

Its a complicated and interesting issue to discuss, but it really doesn't have much relevance to this story. The Dutch aren't banning it for what it stands for, but for what it creates (cultural divisions, pluralism).</div>
I am simply arguing in favor of the choice to wear it or not. The choice is what is important. The lack of a choice is what is sexist.

 

[Chutney]

I agree. And conversely, the lack of choice for wearing it, implemented by this policy is just as bad.

 

[Chuck]

<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I agree. And conversely, the lack of choice for wearing it, implemented by this policy is just as bad.</div>

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I overstated my case.

 

[Pakman]

<div class="quote_poster">deception Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">
the problem i have is that not all hijab wearing women are informed. i think most do it purely out of pressure or some kind of inclination to be subversive (e.g. screw the MAN by wearing a hijab)</div>

Right, you THINK that.

Most Muslim women wear the hijab when they are ready for it. They aren't forced to wear it. Lots of Muslim women dont even wear a hijab because they dont feel right with it on (meaning, they aren't ready for it).