The Conservative Missionary vs. The Libertarian Missionary

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MikeDC

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The Conservative Missionary
Why Libertarians Should Be Conservatives

Liberty is an extremely important value. Unfortunately, most libertarians act like it's the only value that really counts. There's a lot more to life than liberty: Happiness, prosperity, equality, virtue, culture, common decency, and even survival. Sophisticated libertarians will naturally object that liberty is great for all of these other values, too. Often, they're right. But not always. Liberty and these other values sometimes conflict, and there's no reason why liberty should always prevail.

Let's start with the area where libertarians and conservatives have the most common ground: economic policy. Libertarians have convincingly shown that free markets are underrated. So far, we agree. But there's more than a kernel of truth to liberal complaints about the conflict between markets on the one hand, and prosperity, equality, and common decency on the other. We have a lot more government intervention than we should. But just as liberals exaggerate the benefits of government, libertarians exaggerate its defects. Judiciously halving government's role in the economy is reasonable. Laissez-faire in the face of monopoly, imperfect information, irrationality, externalities and other textbook market failures is not.

Outside of economics, libertarians make the same basic mistake. But here, they're not alone. Many liberals also downplay the conflict between personal freedom and other values - and libertarians compound their error by being even more absolutist. Restrictions on drug use are a clear violation of individual freedom, but they also protect families from seeing their children turn into junkies. Would I ban alcohol? No - there are plenty of responsible users. But I do favor many existing government policies that try to limit the collateral damage of alcohol - age limits, sin taxes, licensing, and maybe even rehab programs. I'm open to the argument that marijuana deserves comparable treatment, but unlike libertarians and many liberals, I think we should cautiously modify existing laws instead of abolishing them willy-nilly. If marijuana legalization proves a resounding success, we can talk about harder drugs in two or three decades.

I see the same problem with immigration policy. A few liberals - and many libertarians - literally advocate open borders. I recognize that immigration is the greatest foreign aid program in human history, and I sympathize with the plight of would-be immigrants in the Third World. Most immigrants - legal or not - are nice people. But open borders is crazy. It seriously risks killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. I'm very open to more cost-effective and humane ways to deal with the negative effects of immigration. But as long as immigrants are eligible for government benefits, hurt low-skilled native workers, and vote, the only people we should readily admit are the highly-educated and clear-cut humanitarian cases. I'd put Haitians in the latter category. Asking Mexicans to live on a $10,000 a year in Mexico is reasonable, but asking Haitians to starve in post-earthquake Haiti is a disgrace.

Finally, let me turn to foreign policy. Here again, liberals engage in much wishful thinking, and libertarians compound their errors. Modern warfare is terrible. Most of the people the United States kills in places like Iraq and Afghanistan are innocents. If there were some way to spare them and successfully fight our mortal enemies at the same time, I'd strongly advocate it. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any way to do so. Muslim terrorists really do want to wipe us off the face of the earth, and they're happy to use fellow Muslims as human shields to do it.

I know, they "only" murdered 3000 people on 9/11, but the distribution of terror has a long right tale. Slightly better planning by the terrorists could have multiplied the deaths by a factor of 10. The next big attack could easily be bigger by a factor of 100. And if you think Americans "overreacted" the first time, wait and see what they'll support the next time around. Liberals and libertarians who impede decisive action now are probably paving the way for worse things to come - a downward spiral that makes World War I look benign by comparison. I wish it weren't so, but that's the sad world we live in.

Don't get me wrong. I treasure the libertarian contribution to modern political thought. Where would conservatives be without libertarian economists to expose the defects of government intervention? Libertarians are a valuable conscience on the conservative shoulder, asking us, "Why not freedom?" But in the real world, there are often good reasons to respond, "Here's why not." Sometimes in all good conscience, we must admit that the effect of liberty on other important values is too costly to pay.

The Libertarian Missionary
Why Conservatives Should Be Libertarians

I agree with my conservative opponent that there are many important values. I'll accept his whole list - happiness, prosperity, equality, virtue, culture, common decency, and survival. And I agree that all of these values conceivably conflict with liberty. But like other conservatives, my opponent is too quick to deny priority for liberty - and much too quick to confidently announce that serious conflicts exist.

Liberty is not just another important value. It is a moral constraint on the pursuit of other values. Consider the classic thought experiment where five people require organ transplants to survive. Almost everyone grants that it would be wrong for a doctor to murder a stranger to save his patients' lives. It might be noble for the stranger to volunteer, but taking his organs without his consent is wrong, even if it leads to a better overall outcome.

The standard response to this experiment is to raise the stakes: What if the doctor could save a million lives instead of five? This is a good objection to absolutism. But the weaker conclusion - you shouldn't violate liberty unless you can reasonably expect a much better outcome - still stands.

In any case, conservatives are too quick to accept alleged conflicts between liberty and other values. My opponent mentions standard market failure arguments against laissez-faire, but the connection between these arguments and major government programs is tenuous at best.

Take Social Security, the biggest program in the U.S. budget. Conservatives want to curtail this program, but why won't they go further? My challenge: Name the market failure that leads people to neglect their own retirement. Irrationality is the only credible candidate, but this would at most justify forced savings for the irresponsible minority, nothing like the universal program we have.

Still, when faced with an alleged conflict between economic liberty and other values, conservatives often show a healthy skepticism. Outside of economic policy, unfortunately, they leave their healthy skepticism behind. Take drug prohibition. Alcohol ruins far more lives, destroys more families, and kills more bystanders than all illegal drugs put together. Conservatives barely think about this problem, but they're confident that we should keep fighting the Drug War for the foreseeable future.

Unlike some libertarians, I agree that prohibition reduces consumption. But probably not by much - see the Netherlands or Portugal. And after the American experiment in alcohol prohibition - or Econ 101 - conservatives can't reasonably deny that violent crime and adulterated products are largely side effects not of drugs, but of drug prohibition. Liberty will save lives - and when it does, conservatives should support it even if it isn't popular.

Conservative opposition to immigration is even more disturbing. Immigration promotes almost every value my opponent mentions - especially for the low-skilled workers he wants to exclude. Life in the Third World ranges from hard to hellish. Just letting an immigrant move here to work at Walmart spreads happiness, prosperity, equality, common decency, and yes, survival. The economically illiterate assume, of course, that immigrants' gains come at the expense of the native population. But conservatives know better: International trade enriches the people of both countries, even if they're trading labor.

Yes, some American sub-groups lose. But Borjas himself, the most prominent detractor of immigration in economics, estimates that decades of immigration have cut high school drop-outs' long-run wages by a mere 4.8%. And before you worry about the effect of immigration on the welfare state, remember that the American welfare state focuses on the old and the sick - and immigrants tend to be young and healthy.

I know I'm not going to convince conservatives to join me in calling for open borders. But it's crazy to call open borders "crazy." The U.S. had virtually open borders for over a century - and it was a tremendous success. Mass migration didn't kill the goose that lay the golden eggs; instead, the golden geese multiplied like rabbits. It's possible that immigrants will vote to destroy the system that attracted them, but unlikely. Immigrants come here because they prefer life here to life at home. It wouldn't take a marketing genius to win them over to the cause of American liberty.

Finally, let's turn to foreign policy. I don't know whether respecting the rights of innocents conflicts with our survival. Neither do you. The War on Terror might deter future attacks by putting the fear of God into our enemies. It might inspire future attacks by enraging otherwise harmless people who see their families die by American hands. It could go either way. This isn't wishful thinking; it's honest ignorance. (If you disagree, I will bet you; but since you claim knowledge, and I claim ignorance, I want odds). And honest ignorance isn't worth killing for - especially when the victims are innocents.

Conservatives' greatest strength is their skepticism of government. But they aren't nearly skeptical enough. When government "solves" dubious problems by dubious means, abolition - not moderation - is the sober solution. And the burden of proof shouldn't fall on those who oppose the status quo, but on those who deprive their fellow human beings of their liberty.
 
Missionary is really boring.
 
If you'd do the work of excerpting and summarizing I might read it.
 
Seems to me that libertarianism is a position someone can take up if they want to endlessly rag on the left, generally agree with the right, and take responsibility for decisions made by neither.
 
Seems to me that libertarianism is a position someone can take up if they want to endlessly rag on the left, generally agree with the right, and take responsibility for decisions made by neither.

Libertarians take responsibility for their own actions. Your actions have benefits and consequences; you shouldn't be insulated from either.
 
Libertarians take responsibility for their own actions. Your actions have benefits and consequences; you shouldn't be insulated from either.

Since their platform is one of no action at all (other than self-serving actions) that would seem quite convenient.

But actually that's not true at all.

The whole purpose of Libertarianism is to escape being held accountable or responsible for the consequences of your actions.
 
Since their platform is one of no action at all (other than self-serving actions) that would seem quite convenient.

But actually that's not true at all.

The whole purpose of Libertarianism is to escape being held accountable or responsible for the consequences of your actions.

Think really hard, and then reconsider your opinion. Here, I'll make it simple to you: The flip side of the coin of Liberty is Responsibility.
 
Whatever.

Libertarianism is all about not helping your neighbors and not taking responsibility for how your personal greed adversely affects other people's lives.

It's all about rolling back and nullifying every safety, environmental, and business practices regulation on the books. It's about being able to steal your neighbor's waterfront by diverting the river that crosses your land. It's about being able to employ people to work with asbestos but not having to provide them adequate protection or training...

It's about not being governed in any way, shape, or form.
 
On the contrary, libertarians are the only folks who acknowledge the universality of human greed and argue methods for turning it toward the common good.

Other political theories pretend they'll somehow eliminate it but generally just cloak it in the garb of political power and the public good

It's all about rolling back and nullifying every safety, environmental, and business practices regulation on the books.

Entertainingly, most all of these criticisms are more accurately leveled at progressives as they actually govern. That is, while they certainly encourage more regulation on the books, they encourage selective enforcement and creating regulation that benefits particular companies over others, thus, basically, the personal greed of their donors.

It's about being able to steal your neighbor's waterfront by diverting the river that crosses your land.

That sounds more like the sort of thing allowed by the liberal justices on the Supreme Court (Stevens, joined by Kennedy, Souter, Ginsburg, Breyer), or in very liberal California (where the state, with apropriators who are heavily politically influenced) have a big say, than by the more libertarianish common law interpretation whereby the situation you describe would lead to a successful suit to compensate or stop the diversion.

It's about being able to employ people to work with asbestos but not having to provide them adequate protection or training...

It's about not being governed in any way, shape, or form.

Err... no. A good libertarian first step would be better enforcement and disclosure via the legal system for obvious fraud and torts. Which would be quite a bit better than the government solution of continuing to use asbestos in pretty much every school built until the late seventies. Which, I admit, was only about 1950 years after the first historically documented caution against and recommendation for safety when working with asbestos. So yeah, governments really got right on that. :)
 
Entertainingly, most all of these criticisms are more accurately leveled at progressives as they actually govern.

Because libertarians don't actually govern.

barfo
 
Washington, Adams, Jefferson, et al, did govern.

Even if they could be considered modern libertarians, which is a significant stretch, the fact remains that those guys governed 200 years ago.

barfo
 
Even if they could be considered modern libertarians, which is a significant stretch, the fact remains that those guys governed 200 years ago.

barfo

So they do govern. And they designed our republican form of government, which would work really well as it was intended to.
 
So they do govern. And they designed our republican form of government, which would work really well as it was intended to.

No, they don't govern. Some long-dead guys that you want to lay claim to did govern, 200 years ago.

The world has changed quite a bit in 200 years. I'm not sure if Washington was reanimated today he'd be of much use. Remember how Bush I was amazed by supermarket scanners? Washington would be amazed by the tile on the floor of the supermarket.

barfo
 
No, they don't govern. Some long-dead guys that you want to lay claim to did govern, 200 years ago.

The world has changed quite a bit in 200 years. I'm not sure if Washington was reanimated today he'd be of much use. Remember how Bush I was amazed by supermarket scanners? Washington would be amazed by the tile on the floor of the supermarket.

barfo

Washington would be amazed at how outrageous the size of government is and the scope of its power. He'd be amazed at the fiscal irresponsibility. He'd be amazed that government is looked to as the solution to the problems created by government being big, requiring it to be bigger. And at the use of taxpayer money to buy off interest groups. He'd be amazed at what Rangel and Waters got caught for and what the others don't get caught for.

Libertarians aren't for no government at all. We're for a government that's sized properly, so there's no point in bribing a politician because he has no power to do anything so favorably for one at the expense of another.

(BTW, case not to be pursued by the DoJ against Tom Delay, after 6 years of investigation).
 
Washington would also be amazed by the telephone, the television, the internet, and porn... I doubt we'd be able to get him out of his hotel room. :D
 
Libertarians aren't for no government at all. We're for a government that's sized properly, so there's no point in bribing a politician because he has no power to do anything so favorably for one at the expense of another.

Changing the size and scope of government in order to minimize bribery? Is bribery really a more important issue than government services in your world?

barfo
 
Changing the size and scope of government in order to minimize bribery? Is bribery really a more important issue than government services in your world?

barfo

Many government services are formalized bribery to keep politicians in power and bureaucrats employed.
 
Changing the size and scope of government in order to minimize bribery? Is bribery really a more important issue than government services in your world?

barfo


Ross Perot said it best: "Blue collar bank robbers go into a bank with a gun and hand the teller a note demanding money. White collar bank robbers rob 100s of banks in one fell swoop (and are more likely to get away with it)."

Yep, government is the white collar bank robber.

I'm affected every payday when I look at my pay stub and see how much is being TAKEN.

Rationally, $2.5T would be nearly a balanced budget, and it would be all the govt. services provided at the end of the Clinton presidency and enough extra to fund both wars.

Exactly what "services" do you want to claim we're getting over and above that for the extra $1.4T?
 
Ross Perot said it best: "Blue collar bank robbers go into a bank with a gun and hand the teller a note demanding money. White collar bank robbers rob 100s of banks in one fell swoop (and are more likely to get away with it)."

Yep, government is the white collar bank robber.

You've got a lot of damn gall, accusing the government of robbing banks, after how much money the government spent bailing out banks last year.

I'm affected every payday when I look at my pay stub and see how much is being TAKEN.

Boo hoo.

Rationally, $2.5T would be nearly a balanced budget, and it would be all the govt. services provided at the end of the Clinton presidency and enough extra to fund both wars.

Exactly what "services" do you want to claim we're getting over and above that for the extra $1.4T?

See above.

barfo
 
Many government services are formalized bribery to keep politicians in power and bureaucrats employed.

Some certainly are, like having military bases in places the Pentagon has no use for them. I don't think the majority of services fall into that category.

barfo
 
Some certainly are, like having military bases in places the Pentagon has no use for them. I don't think the majority of services fall into that category.

barfo

It doesn't have to be the majority for it to be wrong. I think we can both agree it's a huge amount.
 
You've got a lot of damn gall, accusing the government of robbing banks, after how much money the government spent giving taxpayer money to friends of the administration.

Fixed it for you.
 
By friends of the administration, you mean friends of the Bush administration, then?

barfo

Friends of this administration who worked for goldman sachs and other big banks. If Cheney somehow got rich from being a former Haliburton CEO, what do you think these guys are getting for their robbery of the treasury and the fed?

And sure, Bush started it with the TARP program in his last days.
 
Friends of this administration who worked for goldman sachs and other big banks. If Cheney somehow got rich from being a former Haliburton CEO, what do you think these guys are getting for their robbery of the treasury and the fed?

And sure, Bush started it with the TARP program in his last days.

Yes, he did. Actually, that was 3 months before he left office. So when you are talking about friends of the administration, you are talking about friends of Bush. The Bush administration bailed out Goldman Sachs. Goldman Sachs paid back the government under Obama. Your implication that the current administration was paying off Goldman Sachs is simply not correct.

barfo
 
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It doesn't have to be the majority for it to be wrong. I think we can both agree it's a huge amount.

Definitely a huge amount in normal human terms, but not a big percentage of the overall federal budget.

barfo
 
Yes, he did. Actually, that was 3 months before he left office. So when you are talking about friends of the administration, you are talking about friends of Bush. The Bush administration bailed out Goldman Sachs. Goldman Sachs paid back the government under Obama. Your implication that the current administration was paying off Goldman Sachs is simply not correct.

barfo

Goldman Sachs just bought back $10.4B of its shares held by the govt. Yet their quarterly profit is between $450M and $1B. Where'd they get the $10.4B, hmmm?
 
Goldman Sachs just bought back $10.4B of its shares held by the govt. Yet their quarterly profit is between $450M and $1B. Where'd they get the $10.4B, hmmm?

Well, half of it they raised by selling stock in April 2009. Presumably the rest they had on hand.

barfo
 

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