The D'Antoni effect

[Natebishop3]

For those of you who are so sure that Steve Nash is the answer to our problems...

Steve Nash on Dallas - 14.5 ppg, 8.8 apg, 47% from the field last season in Dallas
Steve Nash on the Suns - 15.5 ppg, 11.5 apg, 50% from the field first season in Phoenix.

Until Phoenix he never averaged over 9 apg, after joining the suns he has only averaged under 10 apg one time in 08-09.

He also posted career best PERs of 23.3 and 23.8 in his second and third seasons in Phoenix.

Raymond Felton before D'Antoni - 12.1 ppg, 5.6 apg
Raymond Felton during D'Antoni - 17.1 ppg, 9.0 apg
Raymond Felton after D'Antoni - 10.2 ppg, 6.2 apg

Felton's career PER is 14.3 but his career best came with NY at 17.3

What makes you think Nash will fair any better under Nate than Felton has? This system is not built to cater to his play style. I suspect we would see a drop in numbers for him if he were traded here, and then people would chalk it up to his age and say he needs to retire.

 

[Minstrel]

Nash had established himself as 20+ PER player in Dallas. He had a 22.6 PER one of those seasons in Dallas, which is functionally identical to the 23.3 you quote in Phoenix (PER is not so incredibly precise that less than a 1 PER difference is meaningful enough to make conclusive statements). The hype around Nash took off in Phoenix due to many people being fooled by counting stats going up with Phoenix's pace, but Nash didn't get much better.

He was a solid All-Star in Dallas and has been a solid All-Star in Phoenix, and he's a solid All-Star this year. There's no D'Antoni effect if you look past pace-inflated raw stats. If you want a solid All-Star point guard, Nash fits the bill.

 

[RR7]

D'Antoni hasn't been in PHX in 4 years. Nash has posted his 3 highest ast% after D'Antoni has gone. And has led the league in assists the last 3 years without D'Antoni.

 

[magnifier661]

D'Antoni hasn't been in PHX in 4 years. Nash has posted his 3 highest ast% after D'Antoni has gone. And has led the league in assists the last 3 years without D'Antoni.

This... And comparing Felton to Nash is insane too! LOL

 

[MARIS61]

D'Antoni doesn't have a system, unless you call completely deferring to his point guard to run the offense.

Players who have been hampered by their previous coach simply excel when he lets them perform.

 

[Natebishop3]

Nash had established himself as 20+ PER player in Dallas. He had a 22.6 PER one of those seasons in Dallas, which is functionally identical to the 23.3 you quote in Phoenix (PER is not so incredibly precise that less than a 1 PER difference is meaningful enough to make conclusive statements). The hype around Nash took off in Phoenix due to many people being fooled by counting stats going up with Phoenix's pace, but Nash didn't get much better.

He was a solid All-Star in Dallas and has been a solid All-Star in Phoenix, and he's a solid All-Star this year. There's no D'Antoni effect if you look past pace-inflated raw stats. If you want a solid All-Star point guard, Nash fits the bill.

If it's not a factor, why did his numbers dip so dramatically when Porter took over the team in 2008?

PER 19.5 (first time he's dipped below a PER of 20+ since 2000-2001)
9.7 assists per game (first time he had dipped below 10+ apg since joining Phoenix in 2004-2005)

The point is, when he isn't running in the SSOL system, he isn't nearly as effective. What kind of system does Nate McMillan run?

 

[Minstrel]

If it's not a factor, why did his numbers dip so dramatically when Porter took over the team in 2008?

Bad coaching can affect players negatively.

Nash wasn't running the SSOL system in Dallas and was just as effective. He's not running it now, beyond up-tempo just being his developed playing style, and he's just as effective.

 

[RR7]

isn't nearly as effective? Yay, a 19 PER, 9.7 APG PG is not what we want or could use at all. come on

 

[B-Roy]

If it's not a factor, why did his numbers dip so dramatically when Porter took over the team in 2008?

PER 19.5 (first time he's dipped below a PER of 20+ since 2000-2001)
9.7 assists per game (first time he had dipped below 10+ apg since joining Phoenix in 2004-2005)

The point is, when he isn't running in the SSOL system, he isn't nearly as effective. What kind of system does Nate McMillan run?

Is this a joke?

20 PER with over 60% TS is supposed to "not be as effective"? What are you trying to argue here?

 

[magnifier661]

Is this a joke?

20 PER with over 60% TS is supposed to "not be as effective"? What are you trying to argue here?

I know usually people say that anything over 18 PER is all star quality. I don't get what Nate is trying to argue here.

 

[BoBoBREWSKI]

Nate is getting bitch slapped! whap!

 

[Minstrel]

I know usually people say that anything over 18 PER is all star quality. I don't get what Nate is trying to argue here.

It's 20 PER that's considered All Star caliber. But 19.5 is so close to it that it's quibbling to claim it's a huge difference.

 

[Natebishop3]

14 ppg and 8.8 apg is not an All-Star quality player. That's a solid starter. Andre Miller has put up numbers comparable to that and how many All-Star games has he appeared in?

Nash didn't achieve MVP status until he went to Phoenix and started putting up 10+ apg seasons and running one of the most dominant offenses in league history. What makes you think he will be able to do that here under McMillan?

 

[RR7]

So would you not want 14 and 9 out of our PG?

 

[magnifier661]

14 ppg and 8.8 apg is not an All-Star quality player. That's a solid starter. Andre Miller has put up numbers comparable to that and how many All-Star games has he appeared in?

Nash didn't achieve MVP status until he went to Phoenix and started putting up 10+ apg seasons and running one of the most dominant offenses in league history. What makes you think he will be able to do that here under McMillan?

He wasn't an allstar during that time, but he didn't have Amare either. Remember Amare was injured and he was on a very broken team. Hard for a PG to get assists when you are surrounded by scrubs.

 

[B-Roy]

14 ppg and 8.8 apg is not an All-Star quality player. That's a solid starter. Andre Miller has put up numbers comparable to that and how many All-Star games has he appeared in?

Nash didn't achieve MVP status until he went to Phoenix and started putting up 10+ apg seasons and running one of the most dominant offenses in league history. What makes you think he will be able to do that here under McMillan?

I think there should be a distinction between playing at an all-star level and actually making the all-star team. Andre Miller was absolutely playing at an all star level early in his career, but he didn't make the team.

 

[RR7]

also, miller put up above 14 and 9 once in his whole career

 

[Natebishop3]

So would you not want 14 and 9 out of our PG?

Not if the price is Batum or a multi-year contract this summer that eats up our cap space.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

McMillian has proven that he can get good things from white point guards.

Ridnour, Blake, even Sergio put up his best numbers as a Blazer.

Black point guards do poorly under Nate.

Miller, Jack and now Felton.

Clearly this is a race issue and that's why we need Nash.

 

[B-Roy]

Not if the price is Batum or a multi-year contract this summer that eats up our cap space.

For Batum sure, but 30M/3 years for an all-star player is supposed to be bad?

 

[magnifier661]

I'm sorry but if Nash is giving us 14-15 PPG, shotting 46% FG and 40% from three; while dishing 10+ assists a game; then he more than deserves 10 mil per.

 

[Natebishop3]

For Batum sure, but 30M/3 years for an all-star player is supposed to be bad?

For a 38 year old point guard who we've yet to see in our system with our team and our coach? Yes, that's a risky investment.

 

[Minstrel]

Nash didn't achieve MVP status until he went to Phoenix and started putting up 10+ apg seasons and running one of the most dominant offenses in league history.

Nash was just as good in his final three seasons in Dallas. Who cares about where he got his MVP hype? In terms of actual performance, he was as good before D'Antoni as after.

 

[Natebishop3]

I'm sorry but if Nash is giving us 14-15 PPG, shotting 46% FG and 40% from three; while dishing 10+ assists a game; then he more than deserves 10 mil per.

What if he is only putting up 14 ppg and 8 assists per game? Is that worth 10 mil per year? Do you think he's making an All-Star game with those numbers?

 

[Natebishop3]

His last season in Dallas wasn't nearly as good as his years in Phoenix. That's probably why Cuban let him go.

 

[RR7]

who gives a shit if he makes the all star game? Does it matter?

 

[Natebishop3]

who gives a shit if he makes the all star game? Does it matter?

When one person asks if 30/3 is worth it for an All-Star player and another person posts some projected stats for Nash as a Blazer asking if that would be worthwhile, then yes I'm going to mention the All-Star game.

 

[RR7]

gotcha. Well, pretty sure he can not extend, so we'd seehow he does here before offering 3/30 anyways.

 

[magnifier661]

When one person asks if 30/3 is worth it for an All-Star player and another person posts some projected stats for Nash as a Blazer asking if that would be worthwhile, then yes I'm going to mention the All-Star game.

Making the allstar game, and playing at an allstar level are two separate things. Aldridge played at an allstar level last season, but didn't make the allstar game. Nash would be a Godsend to Aldridge. Aldridge would have more room in the paint and our team would have one of the best minds in the game today.

Look at how CP3 made the Clippers so much better. And he is only averaging 8.5 assists per game. Go figure.

 

[Natebishop3]

gotcha. Well, pretty sure he can not extend, so we'd seehow he does here before offering 3/30 anyways.

But the only way to see if he would be worth a 30/3 is by trading for him and if that requires dealing away Batum, it just doesn't seem worth it.