The Day After.

[pegs]

<div class="entry">

Courtesy of Netsdaily:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The beat writers are out blogging Tuesday about Monday&rsquo;s debacle and bottom line is that Sean Williams WILL get more playing time, in part because he&rsquo;s proven himself, in part because a certain player who wears No. 5 loves him. Still, write the beats, don&rsquo;t put so much blame on Jason Collins or Lawrence Frank. There were a lot of people responsible for as painful an early season loss as there has been in recent memory.</p>
</div>

Recapping a Stinging Loss - Al Iannazzone - In the 'Zzone

Mail's In (The Play Sean Edition) - Dave D'Alessandro - Nets Blast</div></p>

I can't wait to read Dave's and Al's responses to the game, and Sean. I'm in class right now, gotta catch up on some work!</p>

 

[GMJ]

Before I read this, who on this board contributed to Dave D having to call his Mail-In the 'Play Sean Edition'?</p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'>A veritable revolving door of ineptitude</div>
haha Dumpy I knew that was you before I read your signature! Ew I hate how DD responded with the obligatory 'win now mode.'</p>

</p>

</p>

 

[pegs]

Wow...both great articles. Al touches on EVERYTHING that people were thinking today and last night.</p>

He also includes this:</p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'></p>
<ul>[*]Nenad Krstic was having his best game of the season, with 12 points and 10 rebounds, but was sitting for more than a quarter when Frank went to him - over Williams - for offensive purposes late in the game. Frank probably should have kept Krstic on the bench at that time. Krstic, returning from left ACL surgery, returned after the Collins' bang-bang crusher and got the ball almost immediately on offense. He missed two foul shots - Krstic said he was stiff - and then missed a short jumper after Jason Kidd got the rebound. Frank didn't re-insert Williams because he would have gone in for Krstic at the stoppage and Krstic was at the line.
[*]On the last possession, the Nets got nothing going. They had to call a second timeout because their first option, Jefferson, couldn't get free. Maybe Kidd should have been on the court and Darrell Armstrong the inbounder because it would have given the Nets another option. Wright wouldn't have been our second choice.</div>[/list]

A couple more coaching mistakes. Frank really coached this game like an idiot.</p>

And another thing to potentially worry about. Let's hope Jefferson keeps up his play, and nothing holds him down.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Jefferson did nothing in the fourth. He won't blame his back, but there may have been stiffness from a third-period dunk try. After the play, Jefferson was holding his back. After the game he said he was fine, though.</div></p>

</p>

 

[xcalibur]

it seems like a while since i really enjoyed reading daveD and Al the same day. i see no reason for sean to not get minutes and not get a lot of minutes. the ball and chain that is keeping sean down is frank and others saying, oh hes a rookie and raw and going to make mistakes. THE VETS ARE THE ONES MAKING THE MISTAKES NOT SEAN!</p>

i dont expect sean to start this year, nor do i think it is really important because the bottom line is that whoever takes twin's spot will basically play starter minutes. i just want sean in there with kidd and the starters because he can make them better on the defensive end and can finish around the basket on the offensive end and not get stuffed like mags and twin because they cant jump.</p>

really, what negative does sean bring when he comes in? you think of a rookie coming in and making stupid mistakes. i have not seen that. yea his first action there were some ticky-tack fouls, but i remember when krstic became a starter he picked up so many stupid fouls. granted the team/franchise was in a different state back then compared to now, but we stuck with krstic and he got better FAST for us (mainly on the offensive end) and was a big reason for our success the last few years. sean can/will do the same thing this year.</p>

sean comes in, the crowd gets pumped. when sean comes in he blocks, runs, finishes, sets screens, gets to the line and if he doesnt block teh shot he sure does alter shots. he does more than probably our entire bigs combined, except scoring when krstic is healthy. when the other bigs are in, you can see a dropoff in our play. granted its easier for a handful of guys look bad while one guy plays well, but aside from one game from mags he has done littel to nothing, boone/malik/twin have done little to nothing and krstic is a crapshoot at this point. he could hit back2back shots then not make another shot. he has a legit excuse so i wont ride him too hard, but after watching his preseason play i thought he would have been much better than this so far (friday/saturday should be interesting for krstick with back2back orlando/heat).</p>

i dont think frank wants to give in and play sean because i think frank wants to be the one in control and show he has the power, but his vet bigs arent allowing him to have power over sean. instead of taking it slow and easy w/sean, its time for the kid to jump ahead and play play play. everyone praises him about his defense and our defense plays like crap at one point of the game so once we hit a lull defensively sean should be put in asap.</p>

im hoping kidd comes out and basically says play sean more or just keep saying positive things about him. eventually a kidd/vc/rj/swat/krstic lineup would be great to watch. when krstic is fully healthy you get his offense back so sean can just play garbage man on the boards and defensively sean covers up krstic's mistakes (and everyone elses).</p>

i may be a little too over amped with sean, but ive been high (wacka wacka) on him since we got him. im not looking for another kmart because the only other player that comes to mind who brings the intensity kmart did is kg. that just has to be in your personality and sean doesnt have that. that doesnt mean sean wont do what kenyon did, he just wont be that emotional leader like kenyon was which is why he was so loved and successful here. i think when all is said and done sean can put up better numbers than kenyon and be the new anchor to our defense for the future. i mean sean IS A KID! that is another reason i am stoked.</p>

 

[GMJ]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xcalibur`)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

i dont think frank wants to give in and play sean because i think frank wants to be the one in control and show he has the power,</p>

</div></p>

I don't think there's a power struggle between him and the fans outside of Jason Collins. It's my understanding that most people want Sean to play because of his total skill set, not just his ability to catch a lob here and there.</p>

</p>

 

[ly_yng]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peg182)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

A couple more coaching mistakes. Frank really coached the end of the 4th quarter of this game like an idiot.</p>

</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Fixed it for you.</p>

Granted, it's money time, but they were up 11 with 5 minutes to go. He couldn't have been coaching too terribly up to that point.</p>

 

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peg182)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

A couple more coaching mistakes. Frank really coached the end of the 4th quarter of this game like an idiot.</p>

</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Fixed it for you.</p>

Granted, it's money time, but they were up 11 with 5 minutes to go. He couldn't have been coaching too terribly up to that point.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Not completely. He did overplay Malik Allen, when he was offering NOTHING.</p>

Other than that, and starting Krstic, he did coach this game pretty good. And kept Sean in alot, even when he made a couple rookie mistakes (fumbling a couple easy passes, bad foul once, bad defense a couple times)...didn't pull Williams at those points, up until the end of the 4th.</p>

 

[pegs]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xcalibur`)</div><div class='quotemain'>im hoping kidd comes out and basically says play sean more or just keep saying positive things about him. eventually a kidd/vc/rj/swat/krstic lineup would be great to watch. when krstic is fully healthy you get his offense back so sean can just play garbage man on the boards and defensively sean covers up krstic's mistakes (and everyone elses).</div></p>

</p>

I definitely agree with that.</p>

1stly, Kidd should pipe up to Frank about playing Williams. Kidd sees something good there. So does everyone else.</p>

2ndly, That would be a GREAT lineup. And you make a great point, there. Pairing Sean with a healthy Krstic or Collins would be great to see--both those pairs would bring something interesting, the former would bring a strong offensive duo with enough defense, while the latter would bring GREAT defense.</p>

 

[GMJ]

Eh it's too soon to start Sean without some help on defense. He's not good where his talents can overcome his limited court awareness. That's why I want to pair him with Collins until he can learn the defensive schemes.</p>

 

[J.S]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Eh it's too soon to start Sean without some help on defense. He's not good where his talents can overcome his limited court awareness. That's why I want to pair him with Collins until he can learn the defensive schemes.</p>

</div>I really, really think it would be a good idea to start the Rook vs. Boston as opposed to Kristc who will be owned by KG. But then again Krstic might proove me wrong. If Big Baby start lightin' us up I hope we counter with Sir-Swats-Alot and not Boone/Boki. </P></p>

Also not sold on the conventional wisdom that Krstic/Williams will suck. Krstic is often intimidated by physically imposing bigs, and having an emotional leader like Williams might help Kristc be more at ease. Lol, sorry to call Kristc chicken**** but I've witnessed it too often.</p>

I'd like to see a combo of Kristc/Williams with Kidd/Armstrong/Jeff and see what happens.</p>

</p>

 

[GMJ]

Oh yeah, I've said it before that Krstic/Williams should be the end result, but as Dumpy pointed out we need a defensive coach on the court to help Williams find himself. Once he does, then oh-boy watch out. We'll have Krstic's offensive firepower, and Williams owning on both ends.</p>

 

[Teaneck_Armory_Guy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Oh yeah, I've said it before that Krstic/Williams should be the end result, but as Dumpy pointed out we need a defensive coach on the court to help Williams find himself. Once he does, then oh-boy watch out. We'll have Krstic's offensive firepower, and Williams owning on both ends.</p>

</div></p>

Actually, I don't mind that approach at all. Give it a try, says I.</p>

</p>

 

[jarkid]

Keep playing the Sean, and when we are playing Game 40 or 50, he is complete a much better player then..</p>

 

[Dumpy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Oh yeah, I've said it before that Krstic/Williams should be the end result, but as Dumpy pointed out we need a defensive coach on the court to help Williams find himself. Once he does, then oh-boy watch out. We'll have Krstic's offensive firepower, and Williams owning on both ends.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

More than just a defensive coach. I'm trying to construct a lineup around Collins that takes best advantage of his stregnths and minimizes his weaknesses. I THINK that is Kidd-Jefferson-{either Carter or Wright would work}-S. Williams-Collins.</p>

The problem that creates is that it almost dictates a later lineup with both Boki and Krstic on the court together, and I suspect that would be a disaster unless you could put Boki at the 3 and play a bruiser like Magloire in the frontcourt.</p>

What it comes down to is that I don't like Collins and Krstic together, and I don't like Krstic and Boki together, and I don't like Collins and Boki together, either, if Boki is at PF, and I want an uptempo 4 on the court with Kidd if possible.</p>

This will be an unpopular position, but I would not be terribly upset if the Nets let Krstic go next year, let Collins be the starting center, and play Sean as the starting PF. I'd probably keep Boki and almost definitely Wright. Obviously, I'd kick Magloire out the door. I think the team would be better constructed (assuming a certain level of development from Sean between now and then).</p>

 

[soul driver]

I was thinking the same thing, having Boki at 3, Nenad, and Big Cat at the same time. Kidd-Jefferson-Wright-Collins-Sean would work too.

 

[J.S]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Oh yeah, I've said it before that Krstic/Williams should be the end result, but as Dumpy pointed out we need a defensive coach on the court to help Williams find himself. Once he does, then oh-boy watch out. We'll have Krstic's offensive firepower, and Williams owning on both ends.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

More than just a defensive coach. I'm trying to construct a lineup around Collins that takes best advantage of his stregnths and minimizes his weaknesses. I THINK that is Kidd-Jefferson-{either Carter or Wright would work}-S. Williams-Collins.</p>

The problem that creates is that it almost dictates a later lineup with both Boki and Krstic on the court together, and I suspect that would be a disaster unless you could put Boki at the 3 and play a bruiser like Magloire in the frontcourt.</p>

What it comes down to is that I don't like Collins and Krstic together, and I don't like Krstic and Boki together, and I don't like Collins and Boki together, either, if Boki is at PF, and I want an uptempo 4 on the court with Kidd if possible.</p>

This will be an unpopular position, but I would not be terribly upset if the Nets let Krstic go next year, let Collins be the starting center, and play Sean as the starting PF. I'd probably keep Boki and almost definitely Wright. Obviously, I'd kick Magloire out the door. I think the team would be better constructed (assuming a certain level of development from Sean between now and then).</p></div>

</p>

I would think that a Sean/JCol frontcout would be the more stable, But as for it being better all around...You're doing the spreadsheets so I've gotta consider it.</P>
I just don't know how Krstc might play if he got to play more off the ball. I'm curious about that offset. I'm sure it's not the best defensive pairing, but to have a true 5 on 5 two-way lineup would be where I'd like to see the lineup go, as for letting Krstc walk..Umm I disagree.</P>Collins is a home grown oddity, so I can appriciate his game, but I'd in the end rather not have him being the main piece in a starting lineup. </P>You mention that while Collins allows for greater percentage shots and spacing, and the assumed intangible stats, he is more of a basketball technitian than a pure player. Right? </P>Well, all things being equal, Collins is not someone who needs to be guarded, and thus there is a free man on the other team. This is excellent because Carter draws a double. But this is bad because Carter has to work harder.
I think that ideally you can save your players more over the course of a season with 5 scoring threats rather than 4. So that's why Krstc/Williams is a kind of noble experiment.

 

[Dumpy]

I think that if Collins was on the court without three legitimate scoring threats, the results would be terrible (see: a few years ago when the starting five included Jefferson, Eric Williams, Mourning, and Collins). I'm starting from the premise that Collins will be on the team and will play somewhere between 15-25 minutes a night. If you attack those assumptions, then we could talk about starting Krstic/Williams.</p>

 

[GMJ]

Krstic's double-dubs last game has given me hope. So if we're talking about resigning people I could see us keeping Krstic and Wright (can't believe I'm saying that), and dropping Boki and Magloire. But that's only based on what, 7 games?</p>

 

[Dumpy]

Krstic is a good player and a nice kid, but he isn't the kind of guy you want on the court with Jason Kidd. Or Jason Collins, for that matter. It's not just a matter of having nice players; the players have to fit correctly together. Krstic and Magloire would probably play well together (or someone like Magloire), but that would neutralize Kidd's value. As I've said, I also can't see Krstic and Boki playing together (unless Boki was playing the 3 and there was a guy like Magliore in there as well). Someone should go, and I pick Krstic. Niether one plays great defense, but Boki can play more uptempo, which fits the team better. In the past, Krstic has been the best the nets have had, and he's pretty good, if not for the fact that he made the team a mishmash. If Sean develops, then that won't be true. Krstic may be better than Sean, but he won't fit as well as Sean, if that makes sense.</p>

 

[pegs]

How do you compare a player who excels at making team defense better to a player who excels on offense?</p>

It'd be tough to compare who's better between a 100% Krstic and Sean, when both are in their primes, at their best.</p>

 

[Dumpy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Before I read this, who on this board contributed to Dave D having to call his Mail-In the 'Play Sean Edition'?</p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'> A veritable revolving door of ineptitude</div>

haha Dumpy I knew that was you before I read your signature! Ew I hate how DD responded with the obligatory 'win now mode.'</p>

</div></p>

</p>

My point was that it is just short-sighted to try to rely on mediocre veterans one year at a time. Maybe a young guy is worse to start out, but the idea is that he sticks around for two, three, or four years, and so down the line the team is better. Dave's response that the players I named just "happened" to get a chance, and that only someone like Coach Nelson would do something like that. Well, what about now, with the Nets desperate for guards? I am guessing that Toronto is in a "win now" mode, but they can find room for this kid Moon--not only on the roster, but to PLAY. Instead, the Nets now will call on Eddie Gill, a guy who has no future, and has a marginal understanding of the Nets' system and their players. Yippee. If only Coach Nelson can see that some of these kids can contribute, then the league is a joke. As Coach Cassidy said, "I wear bifocles and the rest of the world is nearsighted." If the Nets can't think outside the box a little bit, then they are doomed to be mediocre for a long time.</p>

 

[cpawfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

My point was that it is just short-sighted to try to rely on mediocre veterans one year at a time. Maybe a young guy is worse to start out, but the idea is that he sticks around for two, three, or four years, and so down the line the team is better. Dave's response that the players I named just "happened" to get a chance, and that only someone like Coach Nelson would do something like that. Well, what about now, with the Nets desperate for guards? I am guessing that Toronto is in a "win now" mode, but they can find room for this kid Moon--not only on the roster, but to PLAY. Instead, the Nets now will call on Eddie Gill, a guy who has no future, and has a marginal understanding of the Nets' system and their players. Yippee. If only Coach Nelson can see that some of these kids can contribute, then the league is a joke. As Coach Cassidy said, "I wear bifocles and the rest of the world is nearsighted." If the Nets can't think outside the box a little bit, then they are doomed to be mediocre for a long time.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

The front office and the head coach are both to blame. The front office doesn't do a good job of identifying that type of talent and the head coach doesn't like to play developing players unless he has no choice.</p>

 

[Dumpy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

The front office and the head coach are both to blame. The front office doesn't do a good job of identifying that type of talent and the head coach doesn't like to play developing players unless he has no choice.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

In my original question, I specifically stated that I thought this was one of the great failures of the Thorn tenure (this was edited out no doubt for space reasons). You may argue that his greatest failure has been the signing of mid-level free agents, but I'd argue that one is the precedent to the other. If the Nets tried to identify young, unsigned free agents--many who are strong defensively but limited offesnively--and try to slowly develop them, there wouldn't be a need to sign all the crap they have been. But then on the other hand, the Nets could just draft those players in the middle of the first round.</p>

So, Cpaw, what are your thoughts on Bobby Jones, who I thought would be a good kid for the nets to pick up when the Sixers were clearly ready to dump him?</p>

 

[cpawfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

So, Cpaw, what are your thoughts on Bobby Jones, who I thought would be a good kid for the nets to pick up when the Sixers were clearly ready to dump him?</p>

</div></p>

</p>

About the same as they were pre-draft. I liked him as a second round pick because he could defend all of three perimeter spots and knew how to play within himself. In Denver, he has impressed the coaching staff, but his playing time will be spotty because Yak is a better man defender, JR Smith is more talented and is actually playing well and LK is a better shooter.</p>

 

[pegs]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Before I read this, who on this board contributed to Dave D having to call his Mail-In the 'Play Sean Edition'?</p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'> A veritable revolving door of ineptitude</div>
haha Dumpy I knew that was you before I read your signature! Ew I hate how DD responded with the obligatory 'win now mode.'</p>

</div></p>

</p>

My point was that it is just short-sighted to try to rely on mediocre veterans one year at a time. Maybe a young guy is worse to start out, but the idea is that he sticks around for two, three, or four years, and so down the line the team is better. Dave's response that the players I named just "happened" to get a chance, and that only someone like Coach Nelson would do something like that. Well, what about now, with the Nets desperate for guards? I am guessing that Toronto is in a "win now" mode, but they can find room for this kid Moon--not only on the roster, but to PLAY. Instead, the Nets now will call on Eddie Gill, a guy who has no future, and has a marginal understanding of the Nets' system and their players. Yippee. If only Coach Nelson can see that some of these kids can contribute, then the league is a joke. As Coach Cassidy said, "I wear bifocles and the rest of the world is nearsighted." If the Nets can't think outside the box a little bit, then they are doomed to be mediocre for a long time.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

I wish that were possible. It'd be a dream to have a guy who thinks like Nelson at the helms. I get pissed when I look around the league, and see all these overacheiving young players who have basically come out of nowhere. It basically feels like I'm being mocked as a Nets fan, having to deal with stupid pieces of shit like Malik Allen and Eddie Gill.</p>

When Darrell went down, and when the team seemed like it was in need of scoring, what were the first names I saw thrown out there? One, Allan Houston. Might be a good option, if he could still play. Sorta against it. I'd rather go for name two: Robert Hite. A combo guard, who can shoot with the best of em on a given night. A young player, who can be developed into being a dependable shooter/distributor.</p>

But what do we get? A guy who can't shoot, is a mediocre/poor defender, and who basically sucks. Call him our Malik Allen version of a point guard. It's pathetic, and I'm sick of our coach. There's so many things I'd rather see different. I wanna see a guy who will bring positive changes.</p>

And for anyone who says bullshit like Frank is a class guy, blah blah blah, I don't give shit. Class doesn't bring wins. A good coach brings wins.</p>

 

[Dumpy]

The front office and Frank don't seem to be on the same page. Thornski brings in players, and then they stand aside and let Frank decide how to use them.</p>

 

[J.S]

[quote name='peg182']

[quote name='Dumpy']</p>

[quote name='GMJigga']</p>

Before I read this, who on this board contributed to Dave D having to call his Mail-In the 'Play Sean Edition'?</p>

[quote name='Dumpy'] A veritable revolving door of ineptitude [/quote]

haha Dumpy I knew that was you before I read your signature! Ew I hate how DD responded with the obligatory 'win now mode.'</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

</p>

My point was that it is just short-sighted to try to rely on mediocre veterans one year at a time. Maybe a young guy is worse to start out, but the idea is that he sticks around for two, three, or four years, and so down the line the team is better. Dave's response that the players I named just "happened" to get a chance, and that only someone like Coach Nelson would do something like that. Well, what about now, with the Nets desperate for guards? I am guessing that Toronto is in a "win now" mode, but they can find room for this kid Moon--not only on the roster, but to PLAY. Instead, the Nets now will call on Eddie Gill, a guy who has no future, and has a marginal understanding of the Nets' system and their players. Yippee. If only Coach Nelson can see that some of these kids can contribute, then the league is a joke. As Coach Cassidy said, "I wear bifocles and the rest of the world is nearsighted." If the Nets can't think outside the box a little bit, then they are doomed to be mediocre for a long time.</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

</p>

I wish that were possible. It'd be a dream to have a guy who thinks like Nelson at the helms. I get pissed when I look around the league, and see all these overacheiving young players who have basically come out of nowhere. It basically feels like I'm being mocked as a Nets fan, having to deal with stupid pieces of shit like Malik Allen and Eddie Gill.</p>

When Darrell went down, and when the team seemed like it was in need of scoring, what were the first names I saw thrown out there? One, Allan Houston. Might be a good option, if he could still play. Sorta against it. I'd rather go for name two: Robert Hite. A combo guard, who can shoot with the best of em on a given night. A young player, who can be developed into being a dependable shooter/distributor.</p>

But what do we get? A guy who can't shoot, is a mediocre/poor defender, and who basically sucks. Call him our Malik Allen version of a point guard. It's pathetic, and I'm sick of our coach. There's so many things I'd rather see different. I wanna see a guy who will bring positive changes.</p>

And for anyone who says bullshit like Frank is a class guy, blah blah blah, I don't give shit. Class doesn't bring wins. A good coach brings wins.</p>[/QUOTE]

</p>
I agree, a good coach should have a 5 pound sack of marbles.