OT The Death of the non-shooting point guard

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Rastapopoulos

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Some of my favorite players have been non-shooting PGs. Rajon Rondo is the most obvious example, but Ricky Rubio, young Jason Kidd and Andre Miller are other candidates. So it pains me to say this, but it looks like the NBA game just doesn't suit them any more. Look at Rondo in Dallas. A train wreck. They're better with basically anyone else playing the point. Last night he lasted under 10 minutes and they were behind by around 10 in the time he was on the floor. Getting Rondo was like Whitsitt getting Detlef Schrempf the second time, or trading for Shawn Kemp - it was the last piece of tinkering that broke the toy.
Rubio's a different case in that Minny actually was a good deal better when he played this season, but you can tell it's not really going to work long term because teams' defenses just won't let it work. And this is sad, because Rubio and Rondo are way more fun to watch than just about any other PGs. Their passing is certainly elite, and Rondo's defense and balls-to-the-wall play used to provide a non-stop string of playoff highlights. So, I pour out a 40 on the ground in honor of their passing (in favor of shooters who barely play a lick of defense). I leave you with this:

 
Well is it more Rondo or Rick Carlisle? Something is wrong in Dallas and it probably goes deeper then just Rondo.
 
1) Rondo's an energy guy who's playing without energy (feud w/coach?) - that's the death of him.

2) Rasta's Next Up: Death of the non-shooting PF! (and yes, there is some truth to that).
 
1) Rondo's an energy guy who's playing without energy (feud w/coach?) - that's the death of him.

2) Rasta's Next Up: Death of the non-shooting ANY POSITION! (and yes, there is some truth to that).

FTFY.

Centers realistically are the only players that can get away with not being able to shoot. But I have a feeling even that is going to change soon. Plus, centers with range are already at a premium.
 
Well is it more Rondo or Rick Carlisle? Something is wrong in Dallas and it probably goes deeper then just Rondo.

My guess is the owner. I doubt Donnie Nelson made the call to give up what they did for Rondo.

" They lost starting point guard Jameer Nelson (who was a nice fit for the offense), backup wing Jae Crowder (who'd be the only Maverick capable of slowing down James Harden in the playoffs), backup center Brendan Wright, a 2015 first-round pick, and a 2016 second-round pick." Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/dallas-mavericks-rajon-rondo-trade-disaster-2015-4#ixzz3Y3uvJABr

Dallas was one of the top offensive teams in the league before the trade. Excellent at finishing games because Monte Ellis controlled the ball and took over. What good is Rondo during that scenario? This is not on Carlisle. This is about the front office taking a chance and having it back fire. I would say it was worth the risk....but it had disaster written all over it from the start.
 
I think it's directly related to the relatively new value put on the 3pt shot.
 
I declare the death of the PG that can't shoot, acts like he doesn't give a fuck and quits on his team in the playoffs.

BNM
 
I declare the death of the PG that can't shoot, acts like he doesn't give a fuck and quits on his team in the playoffs.

BNM
Then quickly becomes an allstar for the Shanghai Sharks and makes the Chinese finals!
 
I don't know when PG that can't shoot have ever been desirable. PG that lean toward assist rather than shooting have always been very helpful.
Here is a list of some of the NBA finest examples and Portland's best also in the group. I don't think anyone would say they can't shoot but were damn good dishing the ball while shot selection was excellent.

PG Career Assist Points Career FG% 3P% Career A/M

Maurice Cheeks 7392 12195 .523 .255 1.65

Magic Johnson 10141 17707 .477 .303 1.77

Chris Paul 6950 13060 .474 .364 1.36

John Stockton 15806 19711 .515 .384 2.39

Rod Strickland 7987 14463 .454 .282 1.23

Terry Porter 7160 15586 .463 .386 1.14

SG comparison
Clyde Drexler 6125 22195 .473 .318 .66 <-- SG is nearly alway less than one.

Damian
Lillard 1495 4977 .429 .368 .66
2015 507 1720 .434 .343 .66
 
Stockton was one of the best shooters in the history of the league. cp3 and porter were great shooters too.
 
There are trends that the league goes through then a player comes by and breaks the mold. I think there is so much talent in the league there is a smaller difference between superstars and role players. So now it's becoming more important for all players to be able to shoot. But some coach will find a way to utilize a unique player at some point with a new scheme. That's one thing I do really like about Memphis is they have a very different unique style of play from the rest of the league.
 
Is John Wall currently the best PG that isn't a great shooter?
 
Is John Wall currently the best PG that isn't a great shooter?

Probably. And notice that he wasn't wanted for the US team last summer, despite being the best defender of the bunch of young guys.
 
Was reading this article about Rondo and Carlisle, and it compares Carlisle's relationship with RR with the one he had with Jason Kidd, and it uses this picture:
i

How many NBA coaches are in this picture?
 
Was reading this article about Rondo and Carlisle, and it compares Carlisle's relationship with RR with the one he had with Jason Kidd, and it uses this picture:
i

How many NBA coaches are in this picture?

Not sure who the guy is between Kidd and Stotts, but not counting him, I see at least 5 - (from left to right) Dwane Casey, Jason Kidd, Terry Stotts, Rick Carlisle and Brad Stevens.

BNM
 
Zach Lowe piles on:

LOSER: Point Guards Who Can’t Shoot
They might be the trickiest players to build around — one-man saboteurs of otherwise-functional NBA offenses. It’s just hard to gain traction on a pick-and-roll when the guy guarding the ball handler can go under every screen — even below the foul line:

mcw.png


If anything, Chicago isn’t going under enough screens on MCW pick-and-rolls in this series, and the Bucks exploited that repeatedly in Monday’s huge road win. The Bucks knew there would be growing pains transitioning from Brandon Knight to Michael Carter-Williams, but they didn’t think it would be this bad. Carter-Williams is shooting 44.4 percent in the playoffs, thanks to Monday’s monster Game 5 performance in Chicago that stands, for now, as a happy outlier. Defenses stuff the paint when the Bucks play Carter-Williams, Giannis Antetokounmpo, and one traditional big man — even with shooters at the other two positions.

Carter-Williams isn’t a good enough passer or defender yet to make up for his bricky shooting. Rajon Rondo used to be, and the Celtics still needed three of the greatest shooters ever at their positions to build a functional offense around him. As those stars declined, Boston’s offense fell with them. A healthy Rondo proved unable to prop up a league-average offense without Hall of Fame–level support.

Rondo in recovery has been unable to do much of anything. He’s somehow become a worse shooter, and while he deigned to try on defense again in Dallas, he hasn’t been as good as his reputation on that end in nearly a half-decade.

The Mavericks tried to maximize his skills. They allowed him to run a lot of side pick-and-rolls with Tyson Chandler, and to take those plays along the baseline — exactly where the defense would direct him:


Meandering where the defense wants you isn’t ideal, but it at least allowed Rondo to get deep into the paint and fire weirdly angled passes all over the floor — to be Rondo. Dallas also called more set plays after Rondo arrived; Rondo didn’t like having things scripted, but Rick Carlisle felt he had to slot the chess pieces in certain places to limit the damage of Rondo’s horrible shooting.

It failed in entirely predictable ways. The offense fell apart, and Rondo’s impact on defense faded after a promising start. It has been jarring to watch Dallas rediscover its early-season identity in his absence — pushing the pace, running unpredictable series of pick-and-rolls all over the floor, and producing a bundle of Chandler dunks:


The Mavs are like your friend who dated a crazy significant other for a few months. The relationship turned them into an unrecognizable weirdo, and when it ended, they reverted back to form like nothing ever happened — like we all just imagined everything. One difference: The Mavs traded two good players and a first-round pick to get a first date.

Get out of here, by the way, with the noise about how the Rondo deal was a risk-free flier for Dallas. Jae Crowder and Brandan Wright are good players; Wright might be an even better pick-and-roll dunker than Chandler, and Dallas didn’t have to change a thing when he came into the game. Amar’e Stoudemire has done well for Dallas, but he’s more of a post-up guy now, and he’s a huge defensive downgrade from Wright.

Some fans love to say the first-round pick doesn’t matter, since the Mavs always blow them or trade them, but that’s exactly the point: They used one bullet in a trade that didn’t work, and they can’t replace it. Trading for Rondo was a calculated risk. It wasn’t risk-free.

For now, the Mavericks have found something in the J.J. Barea–Monta Ellis–Al-Farouq Aminu–Dirk Nowitzki-Chandler lineup — a group that features both a long-armed defender for James Harden and a point guard who can shoot well enough to keep defenses honest.2 Aminu’s not a good shooter, but he has a partial track record of hitting corner 3s, and he’s happy to stand on the strong side during spread pick-and-rolls — a place from which defenders rarely help:

aminu.png


Dallas tried to put Rondo there, but he’s an even worse shooter than Aminu, and he likes to stray closer to the paint.

The Mavs hit on this lineup a few games too late, and without Chandler Parsons, they likely don’t have the horses to win this series anyway.

Rondo’s future in the league is unclear. He has long wanted a max-level contract, and that’s obviously not happening. No team that has watched him since his ACL tear would get into a bidding war for Rondo. Several teams that once needed point guards — Detroit, Miami, arguably Milwaukee — found their guy at the trade deadline. The Knicks run the triangle. The Lakers may not be competing against anyone but themselves, and they should proceed accordingly.

Rondo’s a skilled player, and health has robbed him of some of what he once was. But the league has also evolved since Rondo’s peak. Teams are more attuned to spacing — on both ends. They are more aggressive in simply abandoning bad shooters than they were in 2009 and 2010. It is harder today for Rondo, and for Carter-Williams, than it was five years ago. Speaking of which …
 
The change of the rules to take away hand checking has made the score-first point guard a must. The NBA goes through phases. There were a ton of really good shooting guards and wings in the late 90's early 2000's. Now there's very few true shooting guards. We've seen periods of time where there were a ton of great centers, but right now there are very few actually great centers. We've had eras with scoring point guards before. This isn't a new development. It's just that time. The time of the point guard.
 
Not sure who the guy is between Kidd and Stotts, but not counting him, I see at least 5 - (from left to right) Dwane Casey, Jason Kidd, Terry Stotts, Rick Carlisle and Brad Stevens.

BNM

Wow, somebody FINALLY got my Brad Steven joke...

BNM
 
Rondo's an athletic guy who couldn't shoot and then got hurt and lost his athleticism.
 

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