OT The Death Penalty

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Can you please show me the exclamation points and all caps that I've used to address anybody in this thread? You, as well as others have addressed me with such regarding this discussion. Do I really need to go back and quote them?

I have only stated my position, and backed it up with data and facts.


Yes. We can absolutely remove the policy that allows our government to kill innocent people. I have already established this. This is reality.


I have already addressed this several times. We have exonerated many people. And I fully support paying anybody who is exonerated the greater of 10x the the wage they would have earned otherwise, or 10x the average salary during the time they were incarcerated. This is not a mistake that we should allow the government to make lightly.

Wow. This is an incredibly low bar. So, it's ok to kill an innocent person as long as we get a guilty person as well? Yep, I disagree with this 100%. I would much prefer 100 guilty people go free than punish 1 innocent person.

No, the numbers say arresting people doesn't help much. We're among the most violent countries in the world with the largest prison population in the world. If arresting people worked we would be the least violent country in the world.


You would be wrong (if you're suggesting this remains at current levels), as stated above.

Stats have given us answers here, we have refused to apply those stats to logical solutions which have been proven to address our problems.

We need better prison systems with more rehab type of programs. Just because our prison system is a failure doesn't mean we shouldn't keep arresting criminals. Fix the prison system. Don't let criminals go.

 

[Phatguysrule]

The shooter in Bend is dead.....I deleted my "death penalty" posts after realizing that that was not the OP of this thread....let's not drag out the death penalty arguments in light of this case...this shooter is not on death row, he's dead....start another thread for this argument would be my advice ...RIP to the victims in Bend...respect, pass it on. I'll agree to disagree about jails and the death penalty but it's not applicable to this topic. Moving on. This guy will not kill again.

I think mods would move it to a new thread if it were a problem.

True, this guy will not kill again. Rightfully killed in the act by heroes.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

I think mods would move it to a new thread if it were a problem.

True, this guy will not kill again. Rightfully killed in the act by heroes.

I saved the mods the hassle. River is right though. Different topic than the op.

 

[Phatguysrule]

when you minimize another's logic, it is a sign you are upset another doesn't think the same as you.
Caps doesn't always mean someone is upset. It can just mean emphasis on a word.
I can type I am NOT upset. Emphasizing the not. That doesn't mean i am upset.
It just means im trying to be clear that I am NOT upset.

Yes you should go back and quote them, if you deem them being upset at you. I bet there are reasons you may not be logically thinking about as to why something was typing in caps.

Proving people wrong based on logic is not being upset. It is laying out data and facts. Saying there is no logical reason for doing something is not being upset. It is pointing out the fact that something is illogical. If you were able to point to facts, data, or reason which supported your positions you could have made the argument that it was logical, but you weren't able to do so. Which supports the position that it is illogical.

Your stance is based on feelings and culture. Not logic. It's a stance that doesn't improve anything. I'm not angry at your for having that stance, I am simply pointing it out as a fact.

That is not intended as an insult, rather a statement of fact. If you have data or facts to back up your position I could be persuaded to see the logic. Unfortunately that hasn't happened, so I am left to my prior opinion that the death penalty is not logical, but an antiquated and abusive relic of tyrannical governments, and is actually unconstitutional under the Eighth Amendment.

Today, about 3,350 people are on "death row." Virtually all are poor, a significant number are mentally disabled, more than 40 percent are African American, and a disproportionate number are Native American, Latino, and Asian.

https://www.aclu.org/other/death-penalty-questions-and-answers

That's what you get when you allow government to kill non-threatening civilians. I am opposed.

 

[Phatguysrule]

We need better prison systems with more rehab type of programs. Just because our prison system is a failure doesn't mean we shouldn't keep arresting criminals. Fix the prison system. Don't let criminals go.

In order to fix the prison system you'll have to let a lot of prisoners go. And stop killing them.

 

[Phatguysrule]

The death penalty should revoked immediately.
https://www.aclu.org/other/death-penalty-questions-and-answers

Today, about 3,350 people are on "death row." Virtually all are poor, a significant number are mentally disabled, more than 40 percent are African American, and a disproportionate number are Native American, Latino, and Asian.

The ACLU believes that, in all circumstances, the death penalty is unconstitutional under the Eighth Amendment. We also believe that the death penalty continues to be applied in an arbitrary and discriminatory manner in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Q: Doesn't the Death Penalty deter crime, especially murder?
A: No, there is no credible evidence that the death penalty deters crime more effectively than long terms of imprisonment. States that have death penalty laws do not have lower crime rates or murder rates than states without such laws. And states that have abolished capital punishment show no significant changes in either crime or murder rates.

The death penalty has no deterrent effect. Claims that each execution deters a certain number of murders have been thoroughly discredited by social science research. People commit murders largely in the heat of passion, under the influence of alcohol or drugs, or because they are mentally ill, giving little or no thought to the possible consequences of their acts. The few murderers who plan their crimes beforehand -- for example, professional executioners -- intend and expect to avoid punishment altogether by not getting caught. Some self-destructive individuals may even hope they will be caught and executed.

Death penalty laws falsely convince the public that government has taken effective measures to combat crime and homicide. In reality, such laws do nothing to protect us or our communities from the acts of dangerous criminals.

Q: Don't murderers deserve to die?
A: No one deserves to die. When the government metes out vengeance disguised as justice, it becomes complicit with killers in devaluing human life and human dignity. In civilized society, we reject the principle of literally doing to criminals what they do to their victims: The penalty for rape cannot be rape, or for arson, the burning down of the arsonist's house. We should not, therefore, punish the murderer with death.

Q: If execution is unacceptable, what is the alternative?
A: INCAPACITATION. Convicted murderers can be sentenced to life imprisonment, as they are in many countries and states that have abolished the death penalty. Most state laws allow life sentences for murder that severely limit or eliminate the possibility of parole. Today, 37 states allow juries to sentence defendants to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole instead of the death penalty.

Several recent studies of public attitudes about crime and punishment found that a majority of Americans support alternatives to capital punishment: When people were presented with the facts about several crimes for which death was a possible punishment, a majority chose life imprisonment without parole as an appropriate alternative to the death penalty (see PA., 2007).

Q: Isn't the Death Penalty necessary as just retribution for victims' families?
A: No. "Reconciliation means accepting you can't undo the murder; but you can decide how you want to live afterwards" (Murder Victims' Families for Reconciliation, Inc.)

Q: Have strict procedures eliminated arbitrariness and discrimination in death sentencing?
A: No. Poor people are also far more likely to be death sentenced than those who can afford the high costs of private investigators, psychiatrists, and expert criminal lawyers. Indeed, capital punishment is "a privilege of the poor," said Clinton Duffy, former warden at California's San Quentin Prison. Some observers have pointed out that the term "capital punishment" is ironic because "only those without capital get the punishment."

Furthermore, study after study has found serious racial disparities in the charging, sentencing and imposition of the death penalty. People who kill whites are far more likely to receive a death sentence than those whose victims were not white, and blacks who kill whites have the greatest chance of receiving a death sentence.

Minorities are death-sentenced disproportionate to their numbers in the population. This is not primarily because minorities commit more murders, but because they are more often sentenced to death when they do.

Q: Maybe it used to happen that innocent people were mistakenly executed, but hasn't that possibility been eliminated?
A: No. Since 1973, 123 people in 25 states have been released from death row because they were not guilty. In addition, seven people have been executed even though they were probably innocent. A study published in the Stanford Law Review documents 350 capital convictions in this century, in which it was later proven that the convict had not committed the crime. Of those, 25 convicts were executed while others spent decades of their lives in prison. Fifty-five of the 350 cases took place in the 1970s, and another 20 of them between l980 and l985.

Our criminal justice system cannot be made fail-safe because it is run by human beings, who are fallible. Executions of innocent persons occur.

Q: Only the worst criminals get sentenced to death, right?
A: Wrong. Although it is commonly thought that the death penalty is reserved for those who commit the most heinous crimes, in reality only a small percentage of death-sentenced inmates were convicted of unusually vicious crimes. The vast majority of individuals facing execution were convicted of crimes that are indistinguishable from crimes committed by others who are serving prison sentences, crimes such as murder committed in the course of an armed robbery.

The death penalty is like a lottery, in which fairness always loses. Who gets the death penalty is largely determined, not by the severity of the crime, but by: the race, sex, and economic class of the prisoner and victim; geography -- some states have the death penalty, others do not, within the states that do some counties employ it with great frequency and others do not; the quality of defense counsel and vagaries in the legal process.

Q: "Cruel and unusual punishment" -- those are strong words, but aren't executions relatively swift and painless?
A: No execution is painless, whether botched or not, and all executions are certainly cruel. The history of capital punishment is replete with examples of botched executions.

Lethal injection is the latest technique, first used in Texas in l982, and now mandated by law in a large majority of states that retain capital punishment. Although this method is defended as more humane, efficient, and inexpensive than others, one federal judge observed that even "a slight error in dosage or administration can leave a prisoner conscious but paralyzed while dying, a sentient witness of his or her own asphyxiation." In Texas, there have been three botched injection executions since 1985. In other states, dozens of botched executions have occurred, leading to suspensions of executions in Florida, California, and other states.

In 2006, it took the Florida Department of Corrections 34 minutes to execute inmate Angel Nieves Diaz by way of lethal injection, usually a 15 minute procedure. During the execution, Diaz appeared to be in pain and gasped for air for more than 11 minutes. He was given a rare second dose of lethal chemicals after the execution team observed that the first round did not kill him. A medical examiner reported the second dose was needed because the needles were incorrectly inserted through his veins and into the flesh in his arms. Not only did Diaz die a slow and excruciating death because the drugs were not delivered into his veins properly, his autopsy revealed that he suffered 12 inch chemical burns in his arms by the highly concentrated drugs flowing under his skin.

More recently, an Ohio inmate did not die when his injections were incorrectly administered. Minutes into the execution, he raised his head and said, "It don't work, it don't work."

Eyewitness accounts confirm that execution by lethal injection and other means is often an excruciatingly painful, and always degrading, process that ends in death.

Capital punishment is a barbaric remnant of uncivilized society. It is immoral in principle, and unfair and discriminatory in practice. It assures the execution of some innocent people. As a remedy for crime, it has no purpose and no effect. Capital punishment ought to be abolished now.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

In order to fix the prison system you'll have to let a lot of prisoners go. And stop killing them.

Why?
Why are ww not able to continue arresting criminals and improve the prison time at the same time?

 

[Phatguysrule]

Why?
Why are ww not able to continue arresting criminals and improve the prison time at the same time?

I didn't say we couldn't arrest anybody. Our prison population is too large, with too many people being in prison who shouldn't be.

https://www.vera.org/publications/s...etherlands-implications-for-the-united-states

The U.S. prison population has increased 700 percent in the last 40 years, and state corrections expenditures reached $53.5 billion in 2012. Despite this massive investment in incarceration, the national recidivism rate remains at a stubborn 40 percent—meaning that four in 10 incarcerated people will return to prison within three years of release. To learn how other countries deal with corrections and sentencing, Vera led a delegation of state officials from Colorado, Georgia, and Pennsylvania on a trip to Germany and the Netherlands to tour those countries’ prisons, speak with corrections officials, and interact with inmates. This report details their experiences on the tour and the impact it has had on policy discussions and public debate on prison reform in the U.S.

• One of the biggest differences in German and Dutch prisons is the focus on “normalization”: making life in prison as similar as possible to life in the community.
• German and Dutch prison systems are organized around central tenets of resocialization and rehabilitation. The U.S. system is organized around the central tenets of incapacitation and retribution.
• Incarceration is used less frequently and for shorter periods of time in Germany and the Netherlands. Both countries rely heavily on fines or other community-based sentences, not prison sentences.

The U.S. incarceration rate is 693 per 100,000 residents

Compared to 76 per 100‚OOO in Germany, and 69 per 100,000 in the Netherlands.

That's a lot of lost productivity.

 

[riverman]

Thanks for starting this thread BB.....I think it's a good move. Appreciate it.

 

[PDXFonz]

I’m pretty against the death penalty being needed

And pretty for it for those who make it needed

 

[riverman]

I'm pro death penalty when there is zero reasonable doubt but I am for prison reform. Prison should not be a club for bad people to pump iron, watch tv and get their teeth fixed ..maybe get more tats and make more connections with gangs. Take away the tv, internet and recreation and give them books and classrooms and long hard days laboring for the benefit of society. As it is most prisons don't promote reform or teach skills that can change their prospects when they get out. I also think violent criminals should be separated from non-violent prison populations. No violent criminal should be allowed to get out of jail and purchase weapons or ammunition.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

I didn't say we couldn't arrest anybody. Our prison population is too large, with too many people being in prison who shouldn't be.

https://www.vera.org/publications/s...etherlands-implications-for-the-united-states






That's a lot of lost productivity.

40%return to prison within 4 years!. That is very telling thst criminals will continue to be criminals. You don't just let them out. You get them help so when they do get out they are productive. Not destructive.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Whoa. 7 pages just like that! Lol.
To the mod who did this. Thanks much. One thing. Can you add a “depends on the circumstance” option to the poll? I have a feeling that is what many would choose if able to do so.

 

[Natebishop3]

I say we send them all to Australia.

That's still a penal colony, right?

 

[Phatguysrule]

40%return to prison within 4 years!. That is very telling thst criminals will continue to be criminals. You don't just let them out. You get them help so when they do get out they are productive. Not destructive.

So obviously, jail isn't working... maybe we should look at other solutions?

Like Germany and many other countries do. And they have far lower rates of recidivism as well as crime.

 

[Chris Craig]

Whoa. 7 pages just like that! Lol.
To the mod who did this. Thanks much. One thing. Can you add a “depends on the circumstance” option to the poll? I have a feeling that is what many would choose if able to do so.

Either you created this thread or another mod moved a few posts. I figured why not move the rest to respect the other thread and allow for the full conversation here.

 

[RR7]

I say we send them all to Australia.

That's still a penal colony, right?

I think we've become the penal colony

 

[Chris Craig]

40%return to prison within 4 years!. That is very telling thst criminals will continue to be criminals. You don't just let them out. You get them help so when they do get out they are productive. Not destructive.

We don't really work to reform them though, not as much as we could.

 

[Chris Craig]

So obviously, jail isn't working... maybe we should look at other solutions?

Like Germany and many other countries do. And they have far lower rates of recidivism as well as crime.

What do they do?

 

[Phatguysrule]

What do they do?

I posted a link earlier. They focus on treatment, rehabilitation and education rather than retribution. They don't generally put people in jail who aren't threats to the public. They make life in prison as close to life outside the prison as possible. They teach people to live healthy lives as they will live it when they are released.

They have far better access to education and healthcare. They have far better social safety nets.

And they don't encourage the government to kill prisoners.

 

[Phatguysrule]

We don't really work to reform them though, not as much as we could.

Hardly at all. Our system is set up to keep poor and minorities in the system.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

So obviously, jail isn't working... maybe we should look at other solutions?

Like Germany and many other countries do. And they have far lower rates of recidivism as well as crime.

right. Jail isn't working because there is no rehabilitation in prison. how about we work on that before tossing our hands up in the air and let criminals out to then come right back in?

you yourself have said prison needs a reform. How about we do that first and see how it goes?

I answered this question the very post you are responding to…

We don't really work to reform them though, not as much as we could.

Again, right in that post, i said jail isn't working we need to get them help so when they are released they are productive. Not destructive.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

We are arguing the same things. Lol. Not sure how many times ive said we need to change the prison system. Provide more rehab. This is what Germany is doing.
I dont understand the argument if people are reading the posts completely?
Sigh…
Bowing out cause its getting to be a debate simply for arguments sake, not really focusing on what is being said.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

40%return to prison within 4 years!. That is very telling thst criminals will continue to be criminals. You don't just let them out. You get them help so when they do get out they are productive. Not destructive.

maybe this was missed….

 

[Phatguysrule]

right. Jail isn't working because there is no rehabilitation in prison. how about we work on that before tossing our hands up in the air and let criminals out to then come right back in?

you yourself have said prison needs a reform. How about we do that first and see how it goes?

I answered this question the very post you are responding to…


Again, right in that post, i said jail isn't working we need to get them help so when they are released they are productive. Not destructive.

Nobody suggested opening the jail gate and lettting everybody out tomorrow.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Nobody suggested opening the jail gate and lettting everybody out tomorrow.

I know. But you did say we would have to let alot go.
I proceeded to ask why. And then noted they often end back in, based on your link.
I then said we need to reform the prison so they get help to be productive.
You then proceeded to argue that while telling chris we should do what Germany does. Rehab, essentially, which is what i said as well.
Lol

Anyhow, movin on…

 

[Phatguysrule]

I know. But you did say we would have to let alot go.
I proceeded to ask why. And then noted they often end back in, based on your link.
I then said we need to reform the prison so they get help to be productive.
You then proceeded to argue that while telling chris we should do what Germany does. Rehab, essentially, which is what i said as well.
Lol

Anyhow, movin on…

They don't arrest them to start with. They have a much lower prison population because most of our prisoners should not be in jail.

They should be doing community service, paying fines, or being incentivised to attend classes.

 

[HailBlazers]

Maybe you kids should grab a beer sometime?

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

They don't arrest them to start with. They have a much lower prison population because most of our prisoners should not be in jail.

They should be doing community service, paying fines, or being incentivised to attend classes.

This already happens. Alot. I know for a fact from personal direct history.
When you say don't arrest them, define “them”. Because someone who commits a crime should be arrested. Period.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Maybe you kids should grab a beer sometime?

You just wanna tag along for a freebeeeeer!