OT The Death Penalty

[Phatguysrule]

This already happens. Alot. I know for a fact from personal direct history.
When you say don't arrest them, define “them”. Because someone who commits a crime should be arrested. Period.

The only people who should really be in jail are violent criminals. Virtually everyone else should have another form of punishment/treatment.

 

[Natebishop3]

The only people who should really be in jail are violent criminals. Virtually everyone else should have another form of punishment/treatment.

Public flogging for people who steal catalytic converters though.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Public flogging for people who steal catalytic converters though.

I can get behind that!

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

The only people who should really be in jail are violent criminals. Virtually everyone else should have another form of punishment/treatment.

Is breaking an entering and steeling a… safe or jewelry, for example, from an unoccupied (owner isnt home during the crime) home considered violent?
If not, i 100% disagree.
Many nonviolent crimes should still be addressed, at times, with a punishment that may include jail time.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Is breaking an entering and steeling a… safe or jewelry, for example, from an unoccupied (owner isnt home during the crime) home considered violent?
If not, i 100% disagree.
Many nonviolent crimes should still be addressed, at times, with a punishment that may include jail time.

Possibly. It depends on the situation. Why is that person breaking and entering to steal?

Likely a drug problem. Now they've broken the law and you have the right to put them in a drug treatment program and help them.

Once they get out they can do community service or pay a fine.

Or, do they have a violent history? That would make them qualify as a violent criminal and may justify going to jail.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Possibly. It depends on the situation. Why is that person breaking and entering to steal?

Likely a drug problem. Now they've broken the law and you have the right to put them in a drug treatment program and help them.

Once they get out they can do community service or pay a fine.

Or, do they have a violent history? That would make them qualify as a violent criminal and may justify going to jail.

this is where we disagree slightly. I believe they can go to jail. Then they can elect to either do the hard time or enter into an INPATIENT rehab program. ( capitalizing because i was surprised recently when dealing with this very issue on a personal nature how many people don't know there is an inpatient and an outpatient program)
This is similar to jail in that almost everything is regulated. No internet access. No phones, etc.
you eat when and what they feed you, etc.
As long as the person isn't allowed to enter back into society without doing the time or completing an in patient rehab program, I don't care what its called. Jail time, rehab locked down rehab, etc.
I see no reason why we cant implement these programs within the current structure.

Also these people can do community service while in a locked down treatment facility that can be jail. its a form of work release. See those folks in orange cleaning up the highway?

My point being is anyone who commits a crime, whether drug enhanced or not, needs help or punishment before allowed back into society.
They can choose to do the time or get rehab help and those that don't get help aNd continue to commit crimes get longer jail sentences.

 

[Phatguysrule]

this is where we disagree slightly. I believe they can go to jail. Then they can elect to either do the hard time or enter into an INPATIENT rehab program. ( capitalizing because i was surprised recently when dealing with this very issue on a personal nature how many people don't know there is an inpatient and an outpatient program)
This is similar to jail in that almost everything is regulated. No internet access. No phones, etc.
you eat when and what they feed you, etc.
As long as the person isn't allowed to enter back into society without doing the time or completing an in patient rehab program, I don't care what its called. Jail time, rehab locked down rehab, etc.
I see no reason why we cant implement these programs within the current structure.

Also these people can do community service while in a locked down treatment facility that can be jail. its a form of work release. See those folks in orange cleaning up the highway?

My point being is anyone who commits a crime, whether drug enhanced or not, needs help or punishment before allowed back into society.
They can choose to do the time or get rehab help and those that don't get help aNd continue to commit crimes get longer jail sentences.

We have 25% of the world's prison population and 4% of the worlds population.

We have too many people in prison. It is not necessary, and is mostly used as a way to abuse the poor and minorities.

Prison is the least effective, least efficient, and most expensive way to deal with this problem.

Prison is part of the problem. As long as we have so many people in prison we will not be able to get them the help they need. It's too lucrative for the state to do otherwise.

The only tool we have to help is to limit our prison population by limiting what people can be jailed for and how long. Then it will force municipalities to look to other means, and they'll get serious about setting up the programs.

Prisons don't have proper incentive to reduce numbers. So we can't rely on them to help. The more people they have in jail, the more funding they get.

In order to put everybody we currently have in prison through a program we'll have to ramp up an unbelievable amount of programs. Do you think those people will have incentive to help reduce these numbers and put themselves out of a job?

No, that's not how these things work.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

We have 25% of the world's prison population and 4% of the worlds population.

We have too many people in prison. It is not necessary, and is mostly used as a way to abuse the poor and minorities.

Prison is the least effective, least efficient, and most expensive way to deal with this problem.

Prison is part of the problem. As long as we have so many people in prison we will not be able to get them the help they need. It's too lucrative for the state to do otherwise.

The only tool we have to help is to limit our prison population by limiting what people can be jailed for and how long. Then it will force municipalities to look to other means, and they'll get serious about setting up the programs.

Prisons don't have proper incentive to reduce numbers. So we can't rely on them to help. The more people they have in jail, the more funding they get.

In order to put everybody we currently have in prison through a program we'll have to ramp up an unbelievable amount of programs. Do you think those people will have incentive to help reduce these numbers and put themselves out of a job?

No, that's not how these things work.

You seem to be completely missing the point.
Remove the name prison call it a criminal rehab center if you like. Overhaul the spending of the funds given to these facilities.
Whats the difference between that and a separate in patient facility?

none. Other than the name jail or prison, that seems to be the hang ip on this.

regarding the population of our country vs the percent in prison, you yourself answered that previously. We are a violent country right?
I see no logic in that just because we have more criminals and a higher percent of people incarcerated, we should then allow some out?

nah. I see no logic in that. I do see logic in changing what happens to someone once arrested though. This point seems to keep being missed by you when responding?

 

[Phatguysrule]

You seem to be completely missing the point.
Remove the name prison call it a criminal rehab center if you like. Overhaul the spending of the funds given to these facilities.
Whats the difference between that and a separate in patient facility?

none. Other than the name jail or prison, that seems to be the hang ip on this.

No, that's not the hang. The name has nothing to do with it. You need people to run whatever program it is to keep people locked up. Whoever those people are will not want to reduce the number of people in their custody, as that will then make their job irrelevant. There is no reason to run a bunch of people through these programs who do not need it.

regarding the population of our country vs the percent in prison, you yourself answered that previously. We are a violent country right?
I see no logic in that just because we have more criminals and a higher percent of people incarcerated, we should then allow some out?

nah. I see no logic in that. I do see logic in changing what happens to someone once arrested though. This point seems to keep being missed by you when responding?

We are a violent country because we have inefficient and ineffective systems. Like the one you propose above. There is no way to get all of those people through treatment because the incentives are misaligned and we lack the people to run those programs. Unemployment is at a 50 year low, and that's not going to change for another couple of decades. We simply don't have the people to staff up that kind of program.

However, if you release the people from prison, you can then reduce prison staff. That adds more people to the job market so you have a chance to fill the programs, and you'll have less of a need since you only need to run 40% of those people through the programs, as we have already agreed on above.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

No, that's not the hang. The name has nothing to do with it. You need people to run whatever program it is to keep people locked up. Whoever those people are will not want to reduce the number of people in their custody, as that will then make their job irrelevant. There is no reason to run a bunch of people through these programs who do not need it.


We are a violent country because we have inefficient and ineffective systems. Like the one you propose above. There is no way to get all of those people through treatment because the incentives are misaligned and we lack the people to run those programs. Unemployment is at a 50 year low, and that's not going to change for another couple of decades. We simply don't have the people to staff up that kind of program.

However, if you release the people from prison, you can then reduce prison staff. That adds more people to the job market so you have a chance to fill the programs, and you'll have less of a need since you only need to run 40% of those people through the programs, as we have already agreed on above.

i never said run people through programs that are not needed.
You seem to think i am saying treat all of them the same, one way or another and im not.
Why cant a drug addict who burglars a neighbor for money, be arrested and given a drug rehab program while doing their time in prison?
Why cant a sober tax evader not be locked up and NOT go through the same program as the drug addict?

I find releasing criminals to alleviate prison staff so they can go find another job is not logical at all.

Hire people to run the programs. Integrate the programs with the prisons. Retrain prison staff to handle some needs of the drug rehab program.

many options other than just releasing criminals, in my opinion.

 

[Phatguysrule]

i never said run people through programs that are not needed.
You seem to think i am saying treat all of them the same, one way or another and im not.

Nope. I don't think that at all.

Why cant a drug addict who burglars a neighbor for money, be arrested and given a drug rehab program while doing their time in prison?

I didn't say they couldn't. In fact, I specifically suggested that in a post above.

Why cant a sober tax evader not be locked up and NOT go through the same program as the drug addict?

I'm not even sure what you're talking about here. Who suggested this?

I find releasing criminals to alleviate prison staff so they can go find another job is not logical at all.

I find keeping people in prison who don't need to be in prison illogical. Obviously most of those people don't need to be in prison. No other country has that high of a percentage in prison.

Hire people to run the programs. Integrate the programs with the prisons. Retrain prison staff to handle some needs of the drug rehab program.

many options other than just releasing criminals, in my opinion.

Oh, just hire people who don't exist. Great solution.

See my above post about being illogical. There are no people to hire. We have to get more efficient with the people we already have.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Nope. I don't think that at all.

I didn't say they couldn't. In fact, I specifically suggested that in a post above.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about here. Who suggested this?
I find keeping people in prison who don't need to be in prison illogical. Obviously most of those people don't need to be in prison. No other country has that high of a percentage in prison.


Oh, just hire people who don't exist. Great solution.

See my above post about being illogical. There are no people to hire. We have to get more efficient with the people we already have.

im not sure how to respond to this when your responses do not address what you quote.
Lets just take the last one for example.
Did you not see the comment about retraining prison staff? Not all need to be new hires.
im not sure how you come to some of these responses based on what you are quoting.
I am sorry, but some of your responses are directly avoiding/missing or ignoring some of what i said in the very post you aRe quoting/responding to.

Hard to have a conversation when that is happening.

 

[Phatguysrule]

im not sure how to respond to this when your responses do not address what you quote.
Lets just take the last one for example.
Did you not see the comment about retraining prison staff? Not all need to be new hires.
im not sure how you come to some of these responses based on what you are quoting.
I am sorry, but some of your responses are directly avoiding/missing or ignoring some of what i said in the very post you aRe quoting/responding to.

Hard to have a conversation when that is happening.

The current prison staff is not qualified to run these programs. Especially not while doing their current job, with far more prisoners than are needed. This is not logical. We don't have the manpower. You can't just double a persons workload for something they are not qualified to do. Prison guards are not the kind of people who run rehabilitation programs.

You're trying to come up with excuses to keep people in prison who don't need to be in prison. This is not logical.

I understand this a hard conversation for you to have, because you are trying to make something seem logical that is not logical. That's why what you are suggestion has never been done. It's not possible.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

The current prison staff is not qualified to run these programs. Especially not while doing their current job, with far more prisoners than are needed. This is not logical. We don't have the manpower. You can't just double a persons workload for something they are not qualified to do. Prison guards are not the kind of people who run rehabilitation programs.

You're trying to come up with excuses to keep people in prison who don't need to be in prison. This is not logical.

I understand this a hard conversation for you to have, because you are trying to make something seem logical that is not logical. That's why what you are suggestion has never been done. It's not possible.

Of course they aren't currently qualified. Again. Training. Retraining….What can i do to help you actually address what i say vs what you perceive im saying?

Again just becuase something has never been done doesn't mean its not possible. I answered this before, that you ignored.
Traveling across the ocean was once thought impossible. Traveling around the world was once thought impossible.
Take the pyramids. We currently do not know how it was possible to build them. But it was possible and it happened.

Things can change. People can be retrained, funds can be reallocated.
You yourself have said this. I have no clue what you are debating here since you have agreed in the past with what im currently saying…

What makes the convo hard is you keep responding to things i didn't say or responding to only a portion and leaving half the post out of your response. The part that answers your response…
thats all. Nothing more. Did you even address my first point in that previous post? Nope.
its like im talking to a wall bro.
Movin on now. Judge me however you like…

 

[Phatguysrule]

Of course they aren't currently qualified. Again. Training. Retraining….What can i do to help you actually address what i say vs what you perceive im saying?

I addressed it.

Prison guards are not the kind of people who run rehabilitation programs.

See? What can I do to get you to stop deflecting?

Again just becuase something has never been done doesn't mean its not possible. I answered this before, that you ignored.
Traveling across the ocean was once thought impossible. Traveling around the world was once thought impossible.
Take the pyramids. We currently do not know how it was possible to build them. But it was possible and it happened.

Things can change. People can be retrained, funds can be reallocated.
You yourself have said this. I have no clue what you are debating here since you have agreed in the past with what im currently saying…

We already know how to solve this problem. We have examples all over the world. This is not a new invention that is needed. What you are suggesting is trying to re-invent the wheel with a crew that we don't have, and so we can't train.

You are suggesting we use the blocks on horse carriages because you just like the way they look better than those round things.

What makes the convo hard is you keep responding to things i didn't say or responding to only a portion and leaving half the post out of your response. The part that answers your response…
thats all. Nothing more. Did you even address my first point in that previous post? Nope.
its like im talking to a wall bro.
Movin on now. Judge me however you like…

I'm not sure why you're getting defensive again. Stop taking it so personally. I'm not judging you. We're having a policy discussion.
I'm not going to respond to every little thing you post. I'm going to respond to what I deem important. If you want to go deeper into something you are free to address it or ask for clarification. Again, I don't take these things personally.

Feel free to move on if you aren't going to engage in actual discussion.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

I addressed it.

See? What can I do to get you to stop deflecting?


We already know how to solve this problem. We have examples all over the world. This is not a new invention that is needed. What you are suggesting is trying to re-invent the wheel with a crew that we don't have, and so we can't train.

You are suggesting we use the blocks on horse carriages because you just like the way they look better than those round things.


I'm not sure why you're getting defensive again. Stop taking it so personally. I'm not judging you. We're having a policy discussion.
I'm not going to respond to every little thing you post. I'm going to respond to what I deem important. If you want to go deeper into something you are free to address it or ask for clarification. Again, I don't take these things personally.

Feel free to move on if you aren't going to engage in actual discussion.

re·train
/rēˈtrān/
Learn to pronounce

verb

1. teach (someone) new skills, especially so that they can do a different job.
   "they are helping to retrain the long-term unemployed"
   • learn new skills so as to be able to do a different job.
     "a workforce which is willing to retrain"

 

[Phatguysrule]

re·train
/rēˈtrān/
Learn to pronounce

verb

1. teach (someone) new skills, especially so that they can do a different job.
   "they are helping to retrain the long-term unemployed"
   • learn new skills so as to be able to do a different job.
     "a workforce which is willing to retrain"

Everybody can't do every job. Prison guards are not typically the same personality type as you find in successful rehab centers.

What you are suggesting can not work in reality. The numbers don't add up. It is simply a continuation of the same thing, disguised as an attempt at change.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Everybody can't do every job. Prison guards are not typically the same personality type as you find in successful rehab centers.

What you are suggesting can not work in reality. The numbers don't add up. It is simply a continuation of the same thing, disguised as an attempt at change.

I don't agree with the sentiment that people and personalities cant change. Not all can for sure.
But there is a reason people say “never say never”. You
I understand you think differently.
You keep using the words cant work though.

i am saying that it isn't a fact something cant be done just because it hasn't been done before. I think thats tossing hands up in the air and giving up.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I don't agree with the sentiment that people and personalities cant change. Not all can for sure.
But there is a reason people say “never say never”. You
I understand you think differently.
You keep using the words cant work though.

Yes. When something hasn't worked for hundreds of years it's time to give up on it. Using the kind of people our broken system has hired to run prisons doesn't work for rehabilitation.

i am saying that it isn't a fact something cant be done just because it hasn't been done before. I think thats tossing hands up in the air and giving up.

This is the kind of people you're advocating running our rehab centers. These kind of people are the problem with our current prison system.
Families of Arizona Prison Guards Suffer High Rates of Domestic Violence

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Yes. When something hasn't worked for hundreds of years it's time to give up on it. Using the kind of people our broken system has hired to run prisons doesn't work for rehabilitation.




This is the kind of people you're advocating running our rehab centers. These kind of people are the problem with our current prison system.
Families of Arizona Prison Guards Suffer High Rates of Domestic Violence

Not all people are the same. Not all prison guards are the same and not all cops are the same.
https://www.bop.gov/jobs/positions/index.jsp?p=Correctional Officer

 

[Phatguysrule]

Not all people are the same. Not all prison guards are the same and not all cops are the same.
https://www.bop.gov/jobs/positions/index.jsp?p=Correctional Officer

Nobody said they all were. Again, you're deflecting.

I posted the information. You're suggesting pulling from an undereducated high domestic violence population to recruit people to work in our rehab centers. Which requires extreme patience and vast knowledge of psychological and behavioral tendencies.

How are they even going to do the YEARS of full time education while doing their full time jobs at prisons since we refuse to reduce the prison population? Just put in 80 hr weeks for 4-8 years?

I'm sorry, but that makes no logical sense.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Nobody said they all were. Again, you're deflecting.

I posted the information. You're suggesting pulling from an undereducated high domestic violence population to recruit people to work in our rehab centers. Which requires extreme patience and vast knowledge of psychological and behavioral tendencies.

How are they even going to do the YEARS of full time education while doing their full time jobs at prisons since we refuse to reduce the prison population? Just put in 80 hr weeks for 4-8 years?

I'm sorry, but that makes no logical sense.

People can change. It can be done you. just refuse to give any flexibility to the fact that just because something has not been done, it might still possibly be doable and doesn't mean it cant actually be done.

To me its illogical to not want to think outside the box. Your logic is confined by numbers that don't directly reflect our situation compared to other countries.
I get it. You think im illogical. cool deal.

 

[Phatguysrule]

People can change. It can be done you. just refuse to give any flexibility to the fact that just because something has not been done, it might still possibly be doable and doesn't mean it cant actually be done.

To me its illogical to not want to think outside the box. Your logic is confined by numbers that don't directly reflect our situation compared to other countries.
I get it. You think im illogical. cool deal.

You want to reinvent the wheel for seemingly no reason. That's not logical. Why would we do that when we have many blueprints of how to do corrections better all over the world?

Makes no sense.

Do you just wander around the streets in new places when you have an appointment or do you use a map?

You use a map, because intelligent people use the knowledge of others to solve problems more efficiently and effectively.

Please explain how our situation is different? How our criminal population should be treated differently than the German prison population?

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

You want to reinvent the wheel for seemingly no reason. That's not logical. Why would we do that when we have many blueprints of how to do corrections better all over the world?

Makes no sense.

Do you just wander around the streets in new places when you have an appointment or do you use a map?

You use a map, because intelligent people use the knowledge of others to solve problems more efficiently and effectively.

Please explain how our situation is different? How our criminal population should be treated differently than the German prison population?

Oh boy. You wont let it go will you? Maps get updated. At one point the map said our world is flat.
Nothing is set in stone, except some mindsets…
Everything evolves. Including problem solving and answers to problems.

Also i wouldnt use a map of Germany to navigate America. It wouldn't march up and make sense.
Coal was once the answer to power needs. How is that working out now?

 

[Phatguysrule]

Oh boy. You wont let it go will you? Maps get updated. At one point the map said our world is flat.
Nothing is set in stone, except some mindsets…
Everything evolves. Including problem solving and answers to problems.

Also i wouldnt use a map of Germany to navigate America. It wouldn't march up and make sense.
Coal was once the answer to power needs. How is that working out now?

Yes, they get updated when you know you have a better answer. We don't have a better answer.

Why would I let up?
Your suggestion to the best of my understanding is to have the same people who are screwing up our prisoners keep screwing up our prisoners indefinitely, and in the same numbers.

And "People change" isn't a policy solution.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Yes, they get updated when you know you have a better answer. We don't have a better answer.

Why would I let up?
Your suggestion to the best of my understanding is to have the same people who are screwing up our prisoners keep screwing up our prisoners indefinitely, and in the same numbers.

And "People change" isn't a policy solution.

Whatever you say chief…

 

[Phatguysrule]

Whatever you say chief…

There you go. It's ok to admit you don't know a better way, and that others have already solved the problem.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

There you go. It's ok to admit you don't know a better way, and that others have already solved the problem.

If thats what you got from that, you feel free to run with it, but you would be wrong.
If the problem were solved there would be nothing to debate. Lol.
Again. Whatever you say chief… Lol.

 

[Phatguysrule]

If thats what you got from that, you feel free to run with it, but you would be wrong.
If the problem were solved there would be nothing to debate. Lol.
Again. Whatever you say chief… Lol.

It doesn't sound like there is anything to debate... You want to debate, but you have no data or facts to back up what you're proposing... Then you want to take it personal that you have nothing to bring to the table beyond... maybe people will change...

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

It doesn't sound like there is anything to debate... You want to debate, but you have no data or facts to back up what you're proposing... Then you want to take it personal that you have nothing to bring to the table beyond... maybe people will change...

No one is taking anything personal. Im just moving on cause all we are doing is spinning circles. Im sorry you aren't able to understand that.
Your debating style is not worthy of continuing for me and its you who seems to have an issue with that by not letting it go.
Someone who believes that people cant change is not worth debating to me. Its just not worth it. We will not agree on anything. I don't see the point in going round and round.

Even the poll shows more people agree with me than they do you. Go tell them they are not logical for a while. My lord. Lol.

You infer and assume too much. Just like this comment im quoting. But whatever you say chief.