The duplication of Dame and CJ

[TBpup]

I'm impressed with how CJ has developed this season and at times it has given the Blazers a potent back court. He has really blossomed but does seem much better when he plays with the ball and not off the ball. He has struggled since Dame came back going 39-117 (.333) from the floor and 11-39 (.282) from 3-point range....both well below his season averages. CJ is just much more comfortable when he has the ball in his hands, can dribble, create, dance, juke, set up players more often and get his own rhythm. It was that way in the playoffs last year in his huge came against Memphis as Dame was so off, CJ basically took over playing PG and Dame played off the ball when they were in together. It was also the case while Dame was out as CJ shot 64-129 (.496) from the field and 16-40 (.400) from '3'. In the 12 games they played together before Dame got hurt, CJ was 88-224 (.392) from the field so in the last 18 games together, CJ is 127-341 (.372). That is a fairly significant sample size.

Now we would all expect CJ scoring numbers to go down with Damian's return as he just wouldn't get as many shots but what is concerning is how far his efficiency has fallen. He should be getting BETTER looks as teams can't just focus on him because they have to pay attention to (until last night) an on fire Damian Lillard.

He just doesn't seem to have the same swagger, confidence or rhythm and that's been a concern since the beginning of the season for me. Although CJ is the much better player, Allan Crabbe seems to be a better fit at SG with either Dame or CJ.

They are both ball dominant guards who take a higher volume of shots, can create for teammates and have the ability to really score....but I'm still not convinced that works long term. Crabbe provides much more of what Wes did. He is a 3-and-D guy who is better off the catch (although Crabbe has shown signs of a mid-range game lately) and doesn't need the ball to be effective. The Blazers still need someone who can create and take some of the pressure of Damian so other teams don't just trap him all the time but CJ seems to need the ball more often than just as a release valve.

Is this a case where they are just too similar to be an effective combination long term?

 

[Blazinaway]

I'm impressed with how CJ has developed this season and at times it has given the Blazers a potent back court. He has really blossomed but does seem much better when he plays with the ball and not off the ball. He has struggled since Dame came back going 39-117 (.333) from the floor and 11-39 (.282) from 3-point range....both well below his season averages. CJ is just much more comfortable when he has the ball in his hands, can dribble, create, dance, juke, set up players more often and get his own rhythm. It was that way in the playoffs last year in his huge came against Memphis as Dame was so off, CJ basically took over playing PG and Dame played off the ball when they were in together. It was also the case while Dame was out as CJ shot 64-129 (.496) from the field and 16-40 (.400) from '3'. In the 12 games they played together before Dame got hurt, CJ was 88-224 (.392) from the field so in the last 18 games together, CJ is 127-341 (.372). That is a fairly significant sample size.

Now we would all expect CJ scoring numbers to go down with Damian's return as he just wouldn't get as many shots but what is concerning is how far his efficiency has fallen. He should be getting BETTER looks as teams can't just focus on him because they have to pay attention to (until last night) an on fire Damian Lillard.

He just doesn't seem to have the same swagger, confidence or rhythm and that's been a concern since the beginning of the season for me. Although CJ is the much better player, Allan Crabbe seems to be a better fit at SG with either Dame or CJ.

They are both ball dominant guards who take a higher volume of shots, can create for teammates and have the ability to really score....but I'm still not convinced that works long term. Crabbe provides much more of what Wes did. He is a 3-and-D guy who is better off the catch (although Crabbe has shown signs of a mid-range game lately) and doesn't need the ball to be effective. The Blazers still need someone who can create and take some of the pressure of Damian so other teams don't just trap him all the time but CJ seems to need the ball more often than just as a release valve.

Is this a case where they are just too similar to be an effective combination long term?

did U see my post just before yours? great minds? lol I think we should combine them

 

[TBpup]

did U see my post just before yours? great minds? lol I think we should combine them

No....what thread is it in? I'd like to see it. At least copy and paste it into this thread if it's relevant. This is certainly not an anti-CJ piece but more of a 'how do you get the best out of what you have long term' type of observation.

 

[TBpup]

Oh yes, I see it now. We must have been typing at the same time. Mine took a while to compile all the stats so didn't see yours as I've been working on this for a bit. Probably should be merged.

Mine also takes into account games they played together before Damian got hurt as I wanted to see if this was just them getting used to each other again (although at this point, that shouldn't be an issue) or if it was something that was a longer term problem.

CJ wasn't that efficient for quite a while BEFORE Dame got hurt so not it seems like a bigger concern.

 

[Blazinaway]

Oh yes, I see it now. We must have been typing at the same time. Mine took a while to compile all the stats so didn't see yours as I've been working on this for a bit. Probably should be merged.

Mods please merge. Yeah TB you included all the stats and I just pretty much summarized the same thing - we totally agree. I respect all opinions on this but IMO trading CJ needs to at least be seriously considered, and I don't think we would get better value for him than now.

 

[riverman]

CJ is a natural 6 man, I've said all along he should come off the bench and Crabbe should start at the 2...Dame and CJ sort of defer too much to each other when playing together and hesitate more with their own games. I want a 3 and D 2 guard starting with some length and a 6th man who can score in bunches and create his own shot

 

[Blazinaway]

CJ is a natural 6 man, I've said all along he should come off the bench and Crabbe should start at the 2...Dame and CJ sort of defer too much to each other when playing together and hesitate more with their own games. I want a 3 and D 2 guard starting with some length

I don't totally disagree with the 6th man role, however CJ with his play is due for a BIG raise and extension - I am guessin 20 mil per at least in this crazy new cap environment, you simply CAN'T pay a "6th man" that much and he has proven already IMO he can play PG/lead guard very well and as a starter. And do you really think he wants to be a 6th man?

 

[riverman]

I don't totally disagree with the 6th man role, however CJ with his play is due for a BIG raise and extension - I am guessin 20 mil per at least in this crazy new cap environment, you simply CAN'T pay a "6th man" that much and he has proven already IMO he can play PG/lead guard very well and as a starter. And do you really think he wants to be a 6th man?

Manu Ginobli and Andre Igguodala got paid...starting 2 guards are tough to guard, backup pt guards, not so much. Bench players get paid too, especially 6man of the year types which I believe CJ will become.

 

[TBpup]

I don't totally disagree with the 6th man role, however CJ with his play is due for a BIG raise and extension - I am guessin 20 mil per at least in this crazy new cap environment, you simply CAN'T pay a "6th man" that much and he has proven already IMO he can play PG/lead guard very well and as a starter. And do you really think he wants to be a 6th man?

Exactly right. CJ's best role on this team would be as the 6th man IMO but he may have progressed passed that at this point so it's not a long term solution here. He is going to want to be a starter and probably in a role similar to Dame....a scoring PG.

 

[Sinobas]

Well...it's on CJ to make the shots he takes isn't it? I don't really buy this.

 

[TBpup]

Well...it's on CJ to make the shots he takes isn't it? I don't really buy this.

It is on CJ to makes shots he takes....and in the last 27 games, he has done that MUCH better when he played without Dame then when he played with him. In fact, it is a dramatic difference.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

A classic example of "there's only one ball", I guess.

Do we have any stats about how Dame has done without CJ? If both are better apart, then when the time comes to start winning a lot of games, a decision needs to be made about where CJ ends up: on our bench playing 32 minutes in a three-guard rotation (and thus only 16 minutes with Dame), or on a different team playing 36 minutes as a starter... I know which one I'd prefer as a Blazers fan!

 

[handiman]

We've got the same problem with CJ/Dame as we do with Plumlee/Davis. You get the most out of both by playing them separately, because their talents are so redundant. That works out okay for most of the course of the game, but it greatly limits you down the stretch when you can't put all your best players on the floor.

Remember the classic MJ quote, "It's not about how hard you push along the way, it's how much you save for the finish."

This roster saves nothing for the finish, as currently constructed. They sure do push hard along the way, though.

 

[Blazinaway]

We've got the same problem with CJ/Dame as we do with Plumlee/Davis. You get the most out of both by playing them separately, because their talents are so redundant. That works out okay for most of the course of the game, but it greatly limits you down the stretch when you can't put all your best players on the floor.

Remember the classic MJ quote, "It's not about how hard you push along the way, it's how much you save for the finish."

This roster saves nothing for the finish, as currently constructed. They sure do push hard along the way, though.

yes, and I think we all know that this roster needs restructuring and last summer was the beginning, this year is about who stays/goes and what are key needs are

 

[Nikolokolus]

I'm happy that CJ has proved he belongs in the NBA. Even if he doesn't really fit in with Lillard as a starter, his trade value is high and he might still be able to assume a super-sub role in the mold of Jamal Crawford (although I suspect he isn't going to be content with a backup role on this team in the long term).

Gazing into my crystal ball I wonder if the most likely outcome isn't a trade in the next year or two, probably in some sort of package deal. I have no idea who the player coming back would be, but I suspect Olshey would like a frontcourt player with a more polished offensive game than any of our current crop.

 

[0-Our!]

Manu Ginobli and Andre Igguodala got paid...starting 2 guards are tough to guard, backup pt guards, not so much. Bench players get paid too, especially 6man of the year types which I believe CJ will become.

CJ won't accept/buy into becoming a 6th man/coming off the bench (no matter how much $ he gets), you can see it in his face/body language; even if he told ppl what they wanted to hear & said he was ok w/ it & he'd to it for the good of the team, you can already tell that his words wouldn't match what he's really thinking.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate/dislike CJ, I DO like him & he's a good player that's crafty/smart & CAN really score it; Dame & CJ r the best of friends, they have great chemistry on/off court & they would like nothing more than to make this arrangement in the back court work but the way this team is built & where it needs to go to compete w/ the best/get better, CJ isn't the player/can't become the player we need for long term success/sustainability w/ the dynamics of this league/it's competition. Similar to what Riverman said, we need a 3-&-D guy... (i.e. Rodney Hood, Devon Booker, or better) & IF we can't get this guy @ the 2 (my 1st choice is a 2 that has the size/wingspan to play the 3 well), then the trade would need to b for a front court scoring threat (for our team particularly there will b nights where he'll need to score big from here but mostly what's most important is that he just draw enough attention/pull defenders in enough to create space/scoring opportunities & make things easier for our other guys). Also, like others here/in the past have said, his value is the highest now, if we trade him now, his next team (& us) still doesn't have to pay him big bucks yet.

ps w/ possibly targeting a front court guy, I get the feeling that Neil has had talks about Favors from Utah; IF Favors came here... I'm not quite sure how I'd feel about that right now. Favors was having a good year, his production's almost identical to last yr. w/ the exception being an increase in his steals (for a big pretty good); where I have a problem w/ him is I'm not sure if he's a winner/willing to do what it takes. Favors talks about wanting to be 1 of the best/legitimate winning (aka playoffs basketball), has shown flashes, & most ppl expected/saw his potential but he still hasn't contributed to REALLY being that factor (his stats r pretty good & r the stats of a guy that can bring u to the promise land BUT his stats r JUST stats, it's the winning plays/"playing the right way" things that IDK if he'll ever provide enough of).

 

[handiman]

CJ won't accept/buy into becoming a 6th man/coming off the bench...

Even if he were to accept it, it wouldn't maximize the team's talents because he'd still be redundant with Lillard when on the floor together. Ginobli works so well in the role because he's the perfect compliment to Parker, so you can play them together down the stretch.

 

[GriLtCheeZ]

did U see my post just before yours? great minds? lol I think we should combine them

I don't think he can really do a Vulcan mind meld.

 

[Pinwheel1]

I still don't see the difference on whether CJ starts or comes off the bench? He and Dame will sill still be on the court together approximately the same amount of time either way. The only difference will be whether or not it is the first 6 minutes or the last 6 minutes of the 1st and 3 quarters. They are both playing 32+ minutes a game. And they are both finishing the game.

Maybe trade CJ in a year or two. I am in no rush. This experiment is just getting started. His trade value is not going down. Overall I see too many advantages to keeping both. Sure if someone presents an offer you can't refuse, and it is risk free....then you do it. But
I don't like the odds of that happening.

 

[Tunchi]

What about Cj for Narlens Noel and Ish Smith??

 

[Pinwheel1]

What about Cj for Narlens Noel and Ish Smith??

Watching him against Portland I thought Noel played great defense, but I would want a scoring SF back in return for CJ.
I think it is easier finding bigs who can defend but are not a threat offensively....like Noel, than guards as good as CJ.

 

[handiman]

I still don't see the difference on whether CJ starts or comes off the bench? He and Dame will sill still be on the court together approximately the same amount of time either way. The only difference will be whether or not it is the first 6 minutes or the last 6 minutes of the 1st and 3 quarters. They are both playing 32+ minutes a game. And they are both finishing the game.

Did you see my post on the previous page? That's a losing proposition when your two best players can't perform at their full potential simultaneously because of the redundancy. Winning teams are able to roll out their five best players at the end of the game. Fantasy stats don't cut it in real life.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Did you see my post on the previous page? That's a losing proposition when your two best players can't perform at their full potential simultaneously because of the redundancy. Winning teams are able to roll out their five best players at the end of the game. Fantasy stats don't cut it in real life.

Yeah I saw it. I just don't agree with it. Even if CJ is not at his full potential at the end of games while playing with Dame......who will be? Someone who is taller that is a catch and shoot player? We have that in Crabbe, and I want Crabbe in there too. You need multiple players on the court that can dribble, or they will just trap Dame. So even though CJ may not be at his full potential when Dame has the ball, it allows Dame to be......

 

[WillG]

Let's not forget this is CJs first meaningful minutes this season. The guy is still learning on the fly.
Trading him now could end up being a rash move (of Jermaine O'Neal proportions)

 

[Pinwheel1]

Let's not forget this is CJs first meaningful minutes this season. The guy is still learning on the fly.
Trading him now could end up being a rash move (of Jermaine O'Neal proportions)

Exactly. And the CJ-Dame combination is even more of a new thing. Barely a half season if you count injuries. Give it another year.

 

[Orion Bailey]

CJ is a natural 6 man, I've said all along he should come off the bench and Crabbe should start at the 2...Dame and CJ sort of defer too much to each other when playing together and hesitate more with their own games. I want a 3 and D 2 guard starting with some length and a 6th man who can score in bunches and create his own shot

If CJ would be fine coming off the bench, Id rather do that, But I think he would rather be traded to remain a starter at this point. He has had a good taste of blood and doesnt want anything else now.

 

[WillG]

Agree with previous posts that it seems CJ is more comfortable with the ball in his hands.
I'd like to see CJ at the point more, and have Lillard play the 2G more frequently. Perhaps have Lillard coming off of screens for spot ups more often.

 

[handiman]

Yeah I saw it. I just don't agree with it. Even if CJ is not at his full potential at the end of games while playing with Dame......who will be? Someone who is taller that is a catch and shoot player? We have that in Crabbe, and I want Crabbe in there too.

So, the solution is to get even worse defensively, so we can get all our offensive players in simultaneously, even though only two-thirds of them can operate at once?

Crabbe is an up-and-comer, but his current level of play is a huge drop off from CJ's. If the better roster balance solution is to come from players currently on the team, then we're screwed in the short-term. A roster shake-up is the only viable solution, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Natebishop3]

CJ+?? for Boogie. I would do it.

 

[Pinwheel1]

So, the solution is to get even worse defensively, so we can get all our offensive players in simultaneously, even though only two-thirds of them can operate at once?

Crabbe is an up-and-comer, but his current level of play is a huge drop off from CJ's. If the better roster balance solution is to come from players currently on the team, then we're screwed in the short-term. A roster shake-up is the only viable solution, as far as I'm concerned.

How exactly would be getting worse defensively? That is our ending line up now. Yes, at the end of games I think we should surround Dame with 2 other shooters, plus either (Davis, Plums, and/or Aminu) And it looks like Terry agrees with me when he plays Crabbe at SF. Of course it depends on the match ups, but he is pretty good at it.

As far as a roster shake up, why do it now? If they make the playoffs with what we have....fine. If they don't, that is fine too......we get our pick. Why do you want to trade right now. What is the rush? Let this year play out. Then we could have a lottery pick and FA's to help next year.