The Father-Daughter Talk

[julius]

There are certainly people who work very hard; don't make very much money; and aren't provided health care. There isn't a perfect correlation between working hard and being well-paid. The best examples are probably musicians, artists, and artisans. The sculptor who works 14 hours a day trying to make a living; the independent photojournalist who sells his photos to the news organizations; the woodworker who crafts furniture. Then there's the independent contractor who works through temp agencies, because companies don't want to hire him outright because he'll cost more. And yes, the struggling actor who waits on tables during the day, and performs at the local theater at night, hoping to get noticed. No one gives a shit about the guy who is happily unemployed.

Working off of what Dumpy said, I'd say that the list of those who work hard and aren't paid well include a LOT more than what you listed. Going on one of the examples that was in the commercial, teachers. it's not uncommon for them to have to do stuff at home (or at work) after hours, and don't get paid extra. There is no such thing as OT pay for them, no matter what. They might work from 7:30 in the morning till 7 and night, and they're paid the same as they do in a "regular" day. And then if they have to grade papers, create assignments, etc, that's on their own time on the weekend. And all that time? Unpaid.

You're telling me that they're lazy because they make less than others? You're telling me that a Teacher is lazier than a Senator? Or a Representative? Those positions get paid significantly more, and I wouldn't say a Senator or a Rep is even remotely more important than a teacher.

 

[Chutney]

I beg to differ...lots of people do, and a lot of government money goes to them.

I would think that "taking care of the poor and needy" would include "all" the poor and needy. Why differentiate based on criminal record, employment history, substance abuse, mental illness, etc?

That government money is exactly what that first post is trying to justify eliminating, and what we're arguing for.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

ABM has put the liberals to complete shame.

OK, it's 1-0.

 

[Денг Гордон]

ABM has put the liberals to complete shame.

OK, it's 1-0.

What does taking points away from grade point averages, to give someone a higher GPA, something they don't have a right to have to do with everyone pitching in their fair share to give people things that are rights, or should be rights in the spirit of America, such as health care. "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". Health care seems pretty fundamental in living and pursuing happiness...

 

[BrianFromWA]

In what world is there all this money available for college students? In Wisconsin, the top 5 people in each class at each school got a full ride scholarship, and that's it. Then here in Missouri, they give out about $6,000 tops per a year to a person, and that is only to the top 5% I believe.

If someone could tell me where this magical money sprout for college money is? It'd be greatly appreciated. You don't get a full ride for being poor, you get $2,000 for being poor.

If you go through the "Big Book of College Scholarships", there's a bunch.

If you go to your military recruiter, they've got a bunch.

Most public universities have a requirement for "lower-income" assistance.

It's out there. But not if you're white, male, and middle-class.

 

[julius]

ABM has put the liberals to complete shame.

OK, it's 1-0.

You are aware that his point was incredibly ignorant, inaccurate, and actually didn't say what he intended it to say, right?

Or are you that dense?

 

[julius]

If you go through the "Big Book of College Scholarships", there's a bunch.

If you go to your military recruiter, they've got a bunch.

Most public universities have a requirement for "lower-income" assistance.

It's out there. But not if you're white, male, and middle-class.

How do you explain how my nephew, who is white, male, and of middle class upbringing, had access to a lot of student loans? The total amount that he was allotted could've been in excess of 40K.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Did I say "loans"? No

And I'm not bringing up nephews. I'm bringing up me. I went through all f'ing 3000 of those scholarships. Since my grandmother had died that year and left my parents some money (taxed pretty heavily, btw), it upped our tax bracket into "middle-class". As a white, Middle-class male with less than a 3.5 GPA (my fault for not "working hard"), I qualified for THREE.

Loans are a different story. There's tons of loan money...when I put my wife through school after we married, she got about 1/4 of it in loans. But scholarships and grants are available.

 

[maxiep]

Cliff notes version of ABM's story:

People who have lots of money got it only by their own hard work, just like people who get great grades.

People who are poor have only themselves to blame, just like people with bad grades.

You shouldn't help poor people or stupid people. It only encourages poverty and stupidity.

Now you get it. Enabling is enabling. Help the truly needy who have no other alternative, but giving people things they haven't earned only serves to enslave them. Even Bill Clinton understood this lesson when he overhauled Welfare.

 

[maxiep]

In what world is there all this money available for college students? In Wisconsin, the top 5 people in each class at each school got a full ride scholarship, and that's it. Then here in Missouri, they give out about $6,000 tops per a year to a person, and that is only to the top 5% I believe.

If someone could tell me where this magical money sprout for college money is? It'd be greatly appreciated. You don't get a full ride for being poor, you get $2,000 for being poor.

What's wrong with student loans? College isn't free nor should it be.

 

[Денг Гордон]

Now you get it. Enabling is enabling. Help the truly needy who have no other alternative, but giving people things they haven't earned only serves to enslave them. Even Bill Clinton understood this lesson when he overhauled Welfare.

But health care is something that everyone should be given. We don't need to be giving people a working wage for life or free ice cream, or anything like that, but we have a moral obligation to provide health care to all our people.

 

[maxiep]

But health care is something that everyone should be given. We don't need to be giving people a working wage for life or free ice cream, or anything like that, but we have a moral obligation to provide health care to all our people.

On that point we disagree. Catastrophic health care is affordable for virtually everyone except for those already on Medicaid.

 

[MARIS61]

On that point we disagree. Catastrophic health care is affordable for virtually everyone except for those already on Medicaid.

You are completely isolated from the real world, aren't you?

I personally know 3 or 4 people who could afford catastrophic health care, and literally hundreds (everyone else I know) who can't.

1-5 mil is what we're talking here.

I'm very well off, but even with insurance (which typically pays 50-80%) I probably couldn't pay my share to fight cancer.

 

[maxiep]

You are completely isolated from the real world, aren't you?

I personally know 3 or 4 people who could afford catastrophic health care, and literally hundreds (everyone else I know) who can't.

1-5 mil is what we're talking here.

I'm very well off, but even with insurance (which typically pays 50-80%) I probably couldn't pay my share to fight cancer.

I just purchased some for my aunt. $41/mo with a $5K deductible and 20% share over $20K. Who promised that health care would be free and not impact your life? If you have a choice between getting better and bankruptcy, well, that's what the government is for.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Higher education should be at least 5 times as expensive as it is now. And there should be no grants or loans available.

That way, only the rich elite could go to college and then they would make more money. And then with more money at the top of the class bracket, the whole "trickle down" thing will finally kick in and all the visibily retarded poor people can continue to purchase all of the useless crap that the rich people produce all day long.

I'm feeling particularly sarcastic this morning.

 

[maxiep]

Higher education should be at least 5 times as expensive as it is now. And there should be no grants or loans available.

That way, only the rich elite could go to college and then they would make more money. And then with more money at the top of the class bracket, the whole "trickle down" thing will finally kick in and all the visibily retarded poor people can continue to purchase all of the useless crap that the rich people produce all day long.

I'm feeling particularly sarcastic this morning.

Just so you know, if you increase government assistance in the form of grants to higher education, it will be significantly more expensive in the future. Colleges and universities are notoriously poor at cost control, and the best way to keep tuition in check is to focus on loans rather than grants for assistance.

 

[Денг Гордон]

On that point we disagree. Catastrophic health care is affordable for virtually everyone except for those already on Medicaid.

Just because you have insurance doesn't mean the insurance company will actually give you what you're paying for when you need it.

And they also block people out of the system altogether because of pre-existing conditions.

 

[maxiep]

Just because you have insurance doesn't mean the insurance company will actually give you what you're paying for when you need it.

That's what telephones and the US Mail is for . In the worst case scenario, you take them to court with a lawyer working for a percentage of the settlement. I just went through having to fight for parts of the coverage on a hospital stay, and all it takes is diligence.

And they also block people out of the system altogether because of pre-existing conditions.

First, they can't do it if you're part of a group policy. Second, if you have a condition that you fear may be chronic, then you have to carry supplemental insurance throughout your life so you're never put in the position of not having coverage. Set the deductable high enough and it's cheap.

 

[Blaze01]

Government should be there to give a "hand up" to people in need not a "hand out"....

All I see from Democrat proposals are a lot of "hand outs"....

and you can't call it "cutting takes for 95% of americans", when roughly 40% of americans don't even pay taxes, yet they will get a check from Obama anyway.....

Niiiiice.....Way to slap those people who pay thier taxes, pay thier mortgages and bills...right in the face....

 

[maxiep]

and you can't call it "cutting takes for 95% of americans", when roughly 40% of americans don't even pay taxes, yet they will get a check from Obama anyway...

Those tax rebates for those who pay no taxes are called Welfare--something for nothing.