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Comparing Jokic to Nurk.

Here are the key stats where Jokic is better. Can Nurk close the gap on these?
1. FT% -- 83% to 74%
2. FG% near the basket -- 0-3 feet 70% to 60%. 3-10 feet 50% to 40%.
3. AST% -- 38% to 18% (damn!)

Other than those minor items, Nurk is better:
1. Nurk is a significantly better defender.
2. Nurk is a better offensive rebounder (14% to 9%)
3. Nurk has a lower turnover rate (14% to 17%)
4. Nurk gets fouled more (43% to 30%)

Nurk's 18% assist rate equals what Jokic was doing in his first season with Denver. After that Jokic' assist rate took a giant leap from 18% to 29%, then 30%, and this year 38%.

Here is my question for you basketball X's and O's experts.

Did Jokic somehow morph into a passing savant from year one to year two? Or did Denver change their offensive system in a way that maximized Jokic' passing? In other words, is the huge difference between Jokic & Nurkic assist % more a function of Jokic' superior passing, or more due t0 different offensive systems?
 
bobf said:
Comparing Jokic to Nurk.

Here are the key stats where Jokic is better. Can Nurk close the gap on these?
1. FT% -- 83% to 74%
2. FG% near the basket -- 0-3 feet 70% to 60%. 3-10 feet 50% to 40%.
3. AST% -- 38% to 18% (damn!)

Other than those minor items, Nurk is better:
1. Nurk is a significantly better defender.
2. Nurk is a better offensive rebounder (14% to 9%)
3. Nurk has a lower turnover rate (14% to 17%)
4. Nurk gets fouled more (43% to 30%)

Nurk's 18% assist rate equals what Jokic was doing in his first season with Denver. After that Jokic' assist rate took a giant leap from 18% to 29%, then 30%, and this year 38%.

Here is my question for you basketball X's and O's experts.

Did Jokic somehow morph into a passing savant from year one to year two? Or did Denver change their offensive system in a way that maximized Jokic' passing? In other words, is the huge difference between Jokic & Nurkic assist % more a function of Jokic' superior passing, or more due t0 different offensive systems?
Click to expand...
Denver started running the offense more through him. He doesn't bring the ball up but a lot of times he becomes their "point guard" in terms of playmaking and running the offense.
 
bobf said:
Comparing Jokic to Nurk.

Here are the key stats where Jokic is better. Can Nurk close the gap on these?
1. FT% -- 83% to 74%
2. FG% near the basket -- 0-3 feet 70% to 60%. 3-10 feet 50% to 40%.
3. AST% -- 38% to 18% (damn!)

Other than those minor items, Nurk is better:
1. Nurk is a significantly better defender.
2. Nurk is a better offensive rebounder (14% to 9%)
3. Nurk has a lower turnover rate (14% to 17%)
4. Nurk gets fouled more (43% to 30%)

Nurk's 18% assist rate equals what Jokic was doing in his first season with Denver. After that Jokic' assist rate took a giant leap from 18% to 29%, then 30%, and this year 38%.

Here is my question for you basketball X's and O's experts.

Did Jokic somehow morph into a passing savant from year one to year two? Or did Denver change their offensive system in a way that maximized Jokic' passing? In other words, is the huge difference between Jokic & Nurkic assist % more a function of Jokic' superior passing, or more due t0 different offensive systems?
Click to expand...

Jokic has a much better ast/TO ratio as well.

Jokic is a minus defender, but he has Milsap to cover this weakness.
Nurk isn't as good on offense, but he has our backcourt to support him.
Interesting, though moot, comparison, really.

http://bkref.com/tiny/cbEiD
 
hoopsjock said:
Denver started running the offense more through him. He doesn't bring the ball up but a lot of times he becomes their "point guard" in terms of playmaking and running the offense.
Click to expand...

So even though Nurk gets almost as much usage % it's a different kind of usage? Not a "point guard" kind of usage? Maybe we need to copy a bit of Denver. They're doing pretty good.
 
bobf said:
Comparing Jokic to Nurk.

Here are the key stats where Jokic is better. Can Nurk close the gap on these?
1. FT% -- 83% to 74%
2. FG% near the basket -- 0-3 feet 70% to 60%. 3-10 feet 50% to 40%.
3. AST% -- 38% to 18% (damn!)

Other than those minor items, Nurk is better:
1. Nurk is a significantly better defender.
2. Nurk is a better offensive rebounder (14% to 9%)
3. Nurk has a lower turnover rate (14% to 17%)
4. Nurk gets fouled more (43% to 30%)

Nurk's 18% assist rate equals what Jokic was doing in his first season with Denver. After that Jokic' assist rate took a giant leap from 18% to 29%, then 30%, and this year 38%.

Here is my question for you basketball X's and O's experts.

Did Jokic somehow morph into a passing savant from year one to year two? Or did Denver change their offensive system in a way that maximized Jokic' passing? In other words, is the huge difference between Jokic & Nurkic assist % more a function of Jokic' superior passing, or more due t0 different offensive systems?
Click to expand...

Jokic's assist stats are because the whole damn offense runs through him.
 
I think people are severely underrating Jokic’s passing and vision....

The offense runs through him BECAUSE of his passing.
 
bobf said:
So even though Nurk gets almost as much usage % it's a different kind of usage? Not a "point guard" kind of usage? Maybe we need to copy a bit of Denver. They're doing pretty good.
Click to expand...
I think their styles are too different for Portland to use Nurk the way Denver uses Jokic. The first thing is that Jokic has to be respected as a threat to shoot the 3 as he is a career 35.6% 3 point shooter. If Nurk could develop a consistent 3 point shot (not sure if that is a good thing or not?) it would be easier to run plays with him having the ball extended out to the 3 point line. As of right now he is best suited getting the ball around the free throw line if we are talking about how to utilize his passing skills best. That leads me to the second thing which is that Jokic has some ability to penetrate. Some of that is predicated on his ability to knock down the 3 which he takes advantage of by pump faking or going by a hard closeout allowing him to get by his defender despite being fairly slow. Once he's by his defender it opens up all kinds of passing lanes. I don't know if Nurk's big frame would ever suit him being able to handle the ball like that on drives. He did have one play last night where he got the ball in a similar spot to where Jokic does and drove all the way down for a little running layup off the glass. He missed it but it was a pretty strong move for someone his size, I just don't think it's realistic to have him develop that too much.

The thing I will say could be in Nurk's favor is if he starts consistently commanding a double team in the post and the team learns how to create passing angles for easy baskets or open 3's out of that. He wouldn't be getting them the same way as Jokic but that would be the easiest way to boost his assist numbers and make our offense much better. Nurk may actually have better vision but as of right now he needs teammates to make good cuts or go back door or hit shots after a dribble hand off to get his assists whereas Jokic creates a lot of his assists due to his skill set, if that makes sense.
 
The real question to me. Which tandem is better Dame / Nurkic Or Murray/Jokic?
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
The real question to me. Which tandem is better Dame / Nurkic Or Murray/Jokic?
Click to expand...
Without question I'd take Dame and Nurk. I can mostly hide a bad perimeter defender but a big man who is a bad defender is really hard to overcome. I know Denver is doing it right now but Murray and Jokic haven't even played in a playoff game yet.
 
hoopsjock said:
Without question I'd take Dame and Nurk. I can mostly hide a bad perimeter defender but a big man who is a bad defender is really hard to overcome. I know Denver is doing it right now but Murray and Jokic haven't even played in a playoff game yet.
Click to expand...
Right now id take Dame / Nurk. You have to admit though if you were Denver the fact those two already look that good you’d feel pretty good about it.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Right now id take Dame / Nurk. You have to admit though if you were Denver the fact those two already look that good you’d feel pretty good about it.
Click to expand...
Oh no question they will be formidable for many years. Denver is a year away from being where we were at in 2016 with having to pay Murray after paying Jokic this summer. It will be interesting to see if they keep Millsap this summer and how they build once their cap situation looks like ours does now. Keep in mind they gave up picks to stay out of the tax this year and that bought them one off season coming up to manage the cap or be stuck like we are for awhile. I know that has nothing to do with the question of who is a better duo though.
 
blue9 said:
Remember when people said the C position was dead and didn't matter anymore? Ha!
Click to expand...
I've been saying it since the Warriors became good. You aren't going to consistently beat them playing small ball at their game. Why not do the opposite and build a big and physical front line? It obviously gives them problems.
 
hoopsjock said:
I've been saying it since the Warriors became good. You aren't going to consistently beat them playing small ball at their game. Why not do the opposite and build a big and physical front line? It obviously gives them problems.
Click to expand...
My stupid take has been all along that a team will come along who slows things down and can punish many of these teams for being too small. I thought had Cousins stayed healthy last year they couldve been a real threat. They had guys who could guard the perimeter and then two guys who could play bully ball and still shoot enough that teams couldnt clog the paint. I think were seeing that with Nurkic right now teams are not used to seeing a big dude like Nurk who’s skilled enough to punish teams in the post. Even decent defenders like adams and capela they dont have to play against that type of offensive player. They’re used to playing help defense on cutters or guards driving the lane.
 
Looking into Denver's situation a little more...

In the summer of 2020 when Murray will be an RFA, the Nuggets will have over $61 million already tied up with just 3 players under contract (Jokic, Harris, and Barton). As of right now they have no picks in the 2019 draft. Their 2018 selection, Michael Porter Jr, hasn't played a game and doesn't look like he will anytime soon. Even if they keep Millsap around he'll be 35 that summer. It will be fascinating to see how they navigate the cap this summer. This could be a case much like the Blazers where they overpay some of their role players because they are having some success this season and then be locked into a roster without an easy way to take the next step.
 
blue9 said:
Remember when people said the C position was dead and didn't matter anymore? Ha!
Click to expand...

I think you may exaggerating a little. I don't think anyone said the center position was dead and didn't matter, just that it was no longer the most important position anymore.....on offense. PG's and scoring wings are the stars of the league...plus they tend to stay healthier. Bigs and their fragile feet, backs, and knees are not often dependable.
 
Pinwheel1 said:
I think you may exaggerating a little. I don't think anyone said the center position was dead and didn't matter, just that it was no longer the most important position anymore.....on offense. PG's and scoring wings are the stars of the league...plus they tend to stay healthier. Bigs and their fragile feet, backs, and knees are not often dependable.
Click to expand...
Perhaps. But I'm pretty sure if I cared enough I could dig up a significant handful of posts saying that the C position is obsolete.
 
hoopsjock said:
I think their styles are too different for Portland to use Nurk the way Denver uses Jokic. The first thing is that Jokic has to be respected as a threat to shoot the 3 as he is a career 35.6% 3 point shooter. If Nurk could develop a consistent 3 point shot (not sure if that is a good thing or not?) it would be easier to run plays with him having the ball extended out to the 3 point line. As of right now he is best suited getting the ball around the free throw line if we are talking about how to utilize his passing skills best. That leads me to the second thing which is that Jokic has some ability to penetrate. Some of that is predicated on his ability to knock down the 3 which he takes advantage of by pump faking or going by a hard closeout allowing him to get by his defender despite being fairly slow. Once he's by his defender it opens up all kinds of passing lanes. I don't know if Nurk's big frame would ever suit him being able to handle the ball like that on drives. He did have one play last night where he got the ball in a similar spot to where Jokic does and drove all the way down for a little running layup off the glass. He missed it but it was a pretty strong move for someone his size, I just don't think it's realistic to have him develop that too much.

The thing I will say could be in Nurk's favor is if he starts consistently commanding a double team in the post and the team learns how to create passing angles for easy baskets or open 3's out of that. He wouldn't be getting them the same way as Jokic but that would be the easiest way to boost his assist numbers and make our offense much better. Nurk may actually have better vision but as of right now he needs teammates to make good cuts or go back door or hit shots after a dribble hand off to get his assists whereas Jokic creates a lot of his assists due to his skill set, if that makes sense.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the detailed analysis Very enlightening! I still have hopes Nurk will become the best center in the NBA but I guess it's going to have to be in a different way from Jokic. I love Nurk: His attidude, heart, smarts and the way he's gelled (sp?) with Dame.
 
He should be able to continue his double double the next 3 home games. Yes the fever is back!
 
Watch the highlights again and pay attention to how many times Nurk gets fouled and no call.
 
First thing you might want to do is look at exactly how much of a difference that % is?
Assist rate is how many assists the team has while the player is on the floor and made an assist. Some of that goes to shooting and the way shots are taken and some of that goes to who the offense run through. Now also you have to think about how many assists a team generally gets? When talking about Denver they went to around 27 this year so far. The Blazers are sitting about 21 but guess what? Nurkic has started to actually make shots around the rim and that number has gone up substantially. Last three games they averaged 26. Now the Rate cannot include the baskets that the player himself gets. Last year for Denver was 25 and the Blazers were 19.
I would venture a guess that if Nurkic continues to make shots and continues to demand a bunch of respect other teams will try guarding him different. When they do he will see other opportunities to get assists dumping the ball off to players around the rim and passing the ball out to an open three point shooter. If the Blazers continue to push their average up then Nurkic will look better in this stat.
 
hoopsjock said:
The thing I will say could be in Nurk's favor is if he starts consistently commanding a double team in the post and the team learns how to create passing angles for easy baskets or open 3's out of that. He wouldn't be getting them the same way as Jokic but that would be the easiest way to boost his assist numbers and make our offense much better. Nurk may actually have better vision but as of right now he needs teammates to make good cuts or go back door or hit shots after a dribble hand off to get his assists whereas Jokic creates a lot of his assists due to his skill set, if that makes sense.
Click to expand...

Should have just posted what you wrote.... Sorry HJ
 
Best ALL AROUND centers in the nba, ranked, in my opinion

1. AD
2. Embiid
3. Cousins
4. Jokic
5. Nurkic

AD is obvious. A healthy Cousins is neck and neck with Embiid. Jokic sucks defensively but he’s so good on the other end he makes the top 5 anyway. I went with Nurk over KAT because Nurk is better defensively and also because he sons KAT every time they play each other.
 
Scalma said:
Best ALL AROUND centers in the nba, ranked, in my opinion

1. AD
2. Embiid
3. Cousins
4. Jokic
5. Nurkic

AD is obvious. A healthy Cousins is neck and neck with Embiid. Jokic sucks defensively but he’s so good on the other end he makes the top 5 anyway. I went with Nurk over KAT because Nurk is better defensively and also because he sons KAT every time they play each other.
Click to expand...

I would rank Jokic above Cousins. I think Cousins is all empty stats.
 
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